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Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee Working Group (10th)

Overview

  • Date and Time: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 (2022) from 14:00 to 17:00
  • Location: Online
  • Agenda:
    1. Opening
    2. Proceedings
      1. Hearing from related ministries and agencies about regular inspection regulation, resident / dedicated regulation, written notice regulation, regulation for on-site inspection and public inspection, and In-person Courses regulation
      2. Exchange of opinions
    3. Adjournment

Materials

Minutes, etc.

Date

Wednesday, May 18, 2022 (2022), from 2:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.

Location

Online Meetings

Attendees

Chairman

  • Fumiaki Kobayashi, Senior Vice-

Members

  • Junji Annen (Attorney-at-law, Professor of the Graduate School of Law
  • Tatsuhiko Inadani (Professor, Graduate School of Law, Kyoto University)
  • Takafumi Ochiai (Attorney at law, Atsumi & Sakai, Foreign Law Joint Enterprise)
  • Katsunori Nemoto (Senior Managing Director, Japan Business Federation)
  • Masakazu Masushima (Attorney-at-Law, Mori Hamada & Matsumoto)

Minutes

Secretariat (Takamatsu): time, we will open the 10th "Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee Working Group Meeting".

With regard to the attendance of the members of the Committee today, Mr. Ochiai and Mr. Masushima have been in attendance since the middle of the meeting, and Mr. Sugawara and Mr. Uenoyama have been absent.

In addition, Senior Vice-Minister for Foreign Affairs Kobayashi is scheduled to leave the office in the middle of the meeting due to his official duties.

First of all, I would like to start today's agenda.

I would like to ask Mr. Annen, Vice Chairman, to proceed with the proceedings from now on.

Mr. Yasunen, please.

Vice Chairman Annen: .

Today, at the 10th Working Group meeting, there were nine hearings from related ministries and agencies for Agenda (1).

  1. Periodic measurement for air pollution prevention.
  2. Periodic inspection of business facilities related to food sanitation.
  3. Periodic surveys of agricultural land use.
  4. Stationing of a medical care Manager for Advanced Management Equipment, etc.
  5. Stationing, etc. of radio operators in charge.
  6. Obligation to post a certificate of security service.
  7. Online browsing of farmland ledgers.
  8. Digitalization for fire prevention manager training.
  9. It is digitalization for the bar examination.

After this hearing, the Secretariat will request an explanation on the report on the status of coordination regarding resident / full-time, In-person Courses, written notice, and on-site inspection.

Then, I would like to move on to the hearing. Regarding the proceedings at the hearing, I would like to ask Counselors Takamatsu and Osawa, who are in charge.

First of all, Counselor Takamatsu, nice to meet you.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): . Nice to meet you.

The first question is about the periodic measurement to prevent air pollution.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

Then, I would like to have an explanation from Mr. Ota, Chief of the Air Environment Division, Water and Air Environment Bureau, Ministry of the Environment. Thank you.

Manager Ohta: Thank you very much,

Then, I will explain about the periodic measurement to prevent air pollution.

Please take a look at page 1. It is about the outline of the emission regulation under the Air Pollution Control Law.

The Air Pollution Control Law was enacted in 1968 to protect the health of the people and preserve the living environment. It imposes an emission regulation on sources of soot and smoke, such as sulfur oxides and nitrogen oxides.

In order to achieve environmental standards based on Article 16 of the Basic Environment Act, emission standards for these substances are set for each size and type of facility.

At the time of the enactment of this law, the main focus was on the regulation of soot and smoke such as sulfur oxides and nitrogen oxides, but in light of social conditions since then, the number of substances subject to the regulation Law has been increasing.

The chart below shows the volatile organic compounds (VOCs) in the middle. They are the causative substances of photochemical oxidants and suspended particulate matter (SPM), but since it has been difficult to improve them, the law was revised in 2004 to add them.

In addition, in response to the Minamata Convention on Mercury, which was adopted in 2013, the law on mercury was revised in 2015 and mercury has been added one after another.

Penalties are applied to violators of emission standards, whether intentionally or negligently. In addition, prefectural governors, etc. may order the business operator to improve or temporarily suspend the use of emission standards if they find that the business operator is likely to continue to emit soot and smoke in violation of emission standards.

Since it is necessary to make decisions to impose adverse dispositions on business operators, measurement methods (official methods) that can obtain a certain level of measurement accuracy are also specified in ministerial ordinances and public notices.

Please show me the next slide. This slide shows the frequency of measurements related to the discharge regulation. The frequency of measurements is set for each size and type of facility.

Here, as an example, the measurement frequency of nitrogen oxides, which are a type of soot and smoke, and mercury, which is mercury and its compounds, is shown.

A total of 33 facilities have been designated as smoke and soot emitting facilities, but the frequency of the emission of such smoke and soot and the frequency of the emission of nitrogen oxides differ depending on the regulation of the total emission area or not.

Total regulation refers to area where it is difficult to ensure environmental standards only with standards for each facility, and standards for each plant applicable to large-scale plants in such area are set.

As you can see in the table, for large-scale facilities of 40000 Nm3/h or more in each facility, continuous monitoring is performed in the total regulation area, and the results are always sent to the local government by telemeters in many cases.

Total volume regulation Outside area, measurements are taken in batches with a frequency of once every two months.

For facilities with less than 40000 Nm3/h, measurement is required once every six months, and in some facilities, once every five years.

On the other hand, in the right-hand column, continuous measurement is not set for mercury and mercury compounds. In facilities subject to continuous measurement, it is mandatory to measure mercury and mercury compounds once every four months to one year.

Please show me the next slide. This shows what kind of measurements are specified in law for nitrogen oxides, for which continuous measurements are specified.

It is stipulated by law that emission standards, measurement obligations, and measurement records must be preserved. Specifically, it is stipulated by the Enforcement Regulations of the Law.

As for more specific measurement methods, in the case of nitrogen oxides, it is specified in JIS K0104 at the lower right.

Please show me the next slide. This is an example of substances for which continuous measurement is not specified, and mercury is listed as an example.

Similarly, the obligation of measurement is specified by laws and regulations, and the specific method is specified by public notice.

Please show me the next slide. As for the actual situation at the site of inspection, etc., I would like you to see the figure on the left. In order to comply with the emission standards of soot and smoke, etc., in the case of continuous measurement, the operator installs a continuous measurement device and records the results. In the case of non-continuous measurement, in many cases, the private sector inspection organization, etc., analyzes the results by a specified method and issues a measurement certificate.

The results are checked by the pollution control manager selected by the business operator, and the results are confirmed by the prefectural government, etc. whether the standards are strictly observed by on-site inspection and hearing of reports. This is the scheme.

Please show me the next slide. This is the division of roles between the national government, the local local government, and the smoke and soot emitting business operator.

Please show me the next slide. Regarding the periodic measurement under the current Air Pollution Control Law, I think it corresponds to PHASE1.

Please show me the next slide. In addition, as a Issue for advancing the phase, there is a Issue in terms of technology, cost, etc.

A major technical point is that there are many items for which development is not performed by continuous measurement devices for the concentration of air pollutants in exhaust gas.

Even if a new measurement method is created, it will be necessary to discuss whether the results are equivalent to those of the current official method, and it will take a little time to connect this to digitalization such as continuous measurement.

In terms of cost, the initial cost of the equipment is quite high. The equipment for continuous measurement of nitrogen oxides and sulfur oxides costs about 5 million yen, but for batch measurement, it costs about 100,000 to 420,000 yen per year, and there is a Issue where the initial cost of the equipment is very high.

Please show me the next slide. Regarding the phase we are aiming for, regarding continuous measurement, we would like to aim for the phase of achieving the regulation objectives by utilizing digital technology.

In doing so, we believe that it is necessary to establish an automatic measurement method as an official method even for substances for which continuous monitoring technology has not been established, and that the cost should be the same level as that of the current official method. We are considering these matters, and we would like to expand the use of digital technology gradually from substances that satisfy the conditions.

That's all.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

Please let us know if you have any comments or questions about the current explanation.

Vice Chairman Annen: Thank you very much for your explanation.

I would like to ask you a very basic question. On page 2 of the materials you have just presented, I believe that it is a large-scale facility such as a factory that is constantly operated and has a capacity of more than 40000 cubic meters per hour. If it is a constant observation, it is impossible for humans to observe it all the time. Therefore, I imagine that all the constant observations themselves have already been automated and mechanized, and that they have been sent somewhere by communication to be recorded or analyzed. Is it correct to understand that this is the case?

Manager Ohta: Thank you very much, Basically, what is always done is continuous measurement, and continuous measurement devices are installed in each facility.

In many places, it is transmitted to the local government under its jurisdiction by telemeters.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): Secretariat.

In what form is it sent by telemeter?

Air Quality Division, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Ministry of the Environment: First of all, the figures are obtained from the continuous measuring instruments of the business operators, but the business operators naturally check them themselves. Such business operators send more data to local government, and local government is also able to see such results.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): In that case, is it all right that I can always see it in local government?

Air Quality Division, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Ministry of the Environment: There is such a local government.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): Thank you very much. I apologize from the side.

Vice Chairman Annen: , is it correct to understand that local government is continuously obtaining information in almost real time on the emission status or concentration at each business site?

Air Quality Division, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Ministry of the Environment: In local government, where such telemeters have been introduced, such data can be confirmed in real time.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): Do you have an image of how much has been introduced?

Air Quality Division, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Ministry of the Environment: I don't have the data with me right now, so I'd like to check it.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

What do you think, Dr. Ahn?

Vice Chairman Annen: , I think that is important. Even if we mechanize the measurement once every few months or once a year, there will probably be few benefits. However, if it is continuous measurement and within the total regulation area, the data from each business office is continuously transmitted and sent by communication, and local government also performs total regulation, it is necessary to obtain a composite number. If the composite number can be obtained in real time, it will be very convenient, and I feel that it will be strange if it is not so. In particular, the part that is continuous will be completely mechanized or automated. I feel that it is natural to aim for a high phase.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): , Ministry of the Environment, what do you think about this point?

Manager Ohta: Thank you very much, 's point is reasonable. I would like to confirm to what extent telemeters have been introduced.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various I would like to ask a question with almost the same awareness as this point. Is the basic provision of the law that even if telemeters and the like are not used and constant monitoring is performed, for example, all the data is stored by the business operator so that it can be inspected as necessary? Is it a provision that the company is trying to achieve the regulation standards by doing so?

In short, it was a little difficult to understand how emissions standards are monitored and enforced, so I'm sorry because I'm an amateur, but I would appreciate if you could tell me about that in more detail.

Air Quality Division, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Ministry of the Environment: I would like to answer your question. Regarding the part of how the guarantee is made, including those that cannot be constantly monitored by telemeters, we store the measurements taken by the business operator, and when local government confirms them by on-site inspection, it is confirmed that they are properly recorded and stored, and that the recorded data meets the emission standards.

In addition, to ensure that the data is collected in a proper manner, we ensure the accuracy of the data by obtaining and storing measurement certificates for the measurement results.

At each plant, if there is a person with a national certification called a pollution prevention manager, he or she is responsible for storing and recording environmental information.

That's all.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

In short, as I have just mentioned, I believe that the system is being operated on the premise that business operators are basically obligated to preserve the water when they voluntarily do so, and local government goes to check the water in case something happens or on a regular basis.

In that case, I have two concerns. I saw the penalty earlier, but it is very light. I handle criminal law and sanctions, so from the perspective of economic rationality, even if there are business operators who violate the law, it is quite difficult to figure out how to detect them. I cannot deny that this is a setup.

Another point is that the current method is very expensive to enforce the law. In other words, the business operators have to spend the cost of preserving them themselves, and local government has to inspect them one by one, in a sense, manually. As mentioned earlier by Professor Ahn, if the system is automated so that emission-related matters can be centrally understood, all the costs I mentioned will decrease, and the incentives for business operators to violate the law will also decrease.

It is true that the initial cost alone seems high. However, from the perspective of reducing the cost of law enforcement as a whole and utilizing resources more, in fact, there is a problem of how to create a common foundation with prefectural governments when implementing a method that can pay for itself, especially a method that standardizes the whole. From this perspective, I thought that as a digitalization to get closer to a better state as a whole, it would be possible to increase the effectiveness of the regulation and reduce the overall execution cost.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): , Ministry of the Environment, what do you think about this point?

Manager Ohta: Thank you very much, as a whole, if continuous measurement such as constant monitoring becomes possible for each material in such a way, we hope to reduce the burden on business operators and prefectural officials by transition in such a way.

The problem is that we are obliged to measure a large number of substances, but there are many substances for which the technology for continuous measurement has not been regulation sufficiently as a method of development, so first of all, from such a viewpoint, we believe that a technology development that can perform continuous measurement is necessary, and we would like to proceed with consideration on that.

That's all.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

By the way, what is the percentage of development materials for which continuous measurement technology is not available in regulation?

Manager Ohta: Thank you very much, Currently, nitrogen oxides and sulfur oxides are legally monitored at all times, so technology and equipment for continuous measurement are sufficiently spread. However, there is no official method for continuous measurement of other substances, so I think it is necessary to consider the matter from now on.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

However, I may be getting into the details. For example, among the items that are not listed on the technical side, lead is listed here. I'm sorry, but nitrogen oxides are always present in a development furnace that contains lead. I misread this.

In addition, I believe that there was a discussion about the accuracy of measurement. If a monitoring system as a whole as I just mentioned were to be established, there would be variations in measurement accuracy, which could lead to sanctions, so I was concerned that there would be a possibility that the implications would change slightly.

In short, if we can properly monitor and control the situation as a whole, there will be a balance between the conventional method of imposing sanctions and the new method of ensuring transparency and accountability. In that case, there is a possibility that the points to be emphasized and the overall balance in implementing the law and regulation will change. I thought it would be easier to advance reform if such points were taken into consideration. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

Mr. Ministry of the Environment, for your reference, what kinds of objects are there now that are not subject to continuous monitoring?

Manager Ohta: Thank you very much, As you can see at the top of page 8, there are many heavy metals, such as cadmium, lead, and mercury, for which the actual measurement results are less than the detection limit. For these heavy metals, it is necessary to have technical development that can measure them to the required level. In addition, I believe that such technical development is also necessary for those that require pre-processing.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

Do you have any other questions?

Is that all right?

This is a type of periodic inspection, and is currently being considered as PHASE2.

Regarding periodic inspection, in PHASE2, one of the initiatives is to rationalize and introduce technology premised on the current framework of regulation. On the other hand, regarding the utilization of digital technology, an initiative to consider the future of regulation premised on the latest digital technology is also positioned. Therefore, we would appreciate if the Ministry of the Environment could consider it based on the points you pointed out today. We look forward to your continued support.

Manager Ohta: Thank you very much, .

The Ministry of the Environment will continue to consider the matter based on your comments today. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

This ends the first part point.

My second question is about 2. Periodic inspection of business facilities related to food sanitation.

Then, I would like to ask Mr. Miki, Director of the Food Monitoring and Safety Division of the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare Pharmaceutical and Environmental Health Bureau to explain. Thank you.

Manager Miki: Thank you very much for .

I will explain according to the material.

First of all, regarding the outline of the systems of the Food Sanitation Act, the Food Sanitation Act provides various regulation for businesses related to foods, and is designed to provide regulation necessary for public health.

Among them, food business operators have a responsibility to ensure the safety of food they sell at their own responsibility. Therefore, each business operator is voluntarily conducting hygiene management.

In 2018, the Food Sanitation Act was amended to adopt the international standard HACCP, which is a hygiene management method, and in principle, all business operators are required to perform hygiene management in accordance with HACCP.

In order to conduct health management in accordance with HACCP based on the standards specified by the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare, business operators are required to create a health management plan, implement it according to the plan, and record and store it.

Among them, there are two standards specified by Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare. The first is maintenance of cleanliness inside and outside facilities, extermination of mice, insects, etc., and other general sanitation management, which is called general sanitation management.

In addition, in order to prevent the occurrence of each hazard, efforts are made to control particularly important processes. This is sanitation management in accordance with HACCP, and these two points are being carried out.

In particular, regarding the standards for general sanitation management, we have specified the 14 items shown in this table as necessary for HACCP to function efficiently. Among them, there are items such as sanitation management of facilities and sanitation management of equipment, etc., and I am aware that the sanitation management of equipment, etc., surrounded by a red frame, is being discussed this time.

On the next page, we show a diagram of general HACCP. In the past, management was carried out by inspecting the final product and checking whether there were any problems. This time, however, by incorporating health management based on HACCP, it is possible to identify where important hazards will occur in each process, and to ensure overall safety by identifying them first and performing necessary management.

An example of a hamburger steak will be shown later, but in the case of a hamburger steak, it is particularly important to heat the hamburger steak. Therefore, in the heating process, continuous monitoring of the temperature, etc., and monitoring at a determined frequency are performed to confirm whether there are any problems.

On page 3, I would like to explain the roles of business operators and the government in health management. As written on the left, business operators create health management plans, and implement, record, and store health management.

In this regard, there is a food sanitation inspector on the administrative side, mainly at the health center, who monitors, gives guidance and advice, and checks whether the business operators are properly implementing such measures by checking their records.

On the next page. Amidst this, the issue of regulation this time is that periodic inspections are positioned in the standards of general health management. As part of the health management of equipment, etc., it is written that the functions of thermometers, etc. shown here should be periodically inspected and the results of the inspection should be properly recorded. The business operator should check whether they are functioning properly through various inspections. It is a situation in which it is necessary to do so-called calibration.

Please see the next page. Let me explain using hamburger as an example. There are various facilities, including large-scale facilities and small and medium-scale facilities such as general restaurants. If anything, in terms of business facilities, there are many more general small-scale facilities.

Under such circumstances, as shown on the left, in large-scale facilities, measurement and recording are performed using such equipment during continuous production using machines, and in small-scale facilities, daily monitoring or checking is performed by measuring each item using thermometers and the like.

Under such circumstances, the periodic inspection of whether the thermometer is functioning properly is shown on the right. In the case of equipment in a large-scale facility, the manufacturer of the instruments and the like performs periodic inspection and confirms that there is no functional problem, and in the case of a small-scale facility, as shown in the lower right, various methods are approved by the business operator himself or the manufacturer performing periodic inspection.

On the next page, in terms of the current phase, as I just explained, regarding equipment, if the instruction manual prepared by the manufacturer of the equipment says that it should be inspected at what frequency, it is inspected in accordance with that. However, depending on the situation of food production, if the equipment is used very much, the inspection frequency may be increased, and if it is a normal method of use, the inspection is performed at the normal frequency. Therefore, in principle, the Food Sanitation Act does not specify specific items or frequency.

Amidst this, there is no problem as long as such inspections are conducted appropriately using digital tools, and we are operating them. It is my recognition that the concept of PHASE2 has already been introduced.

As for the Issue and measures to advance the phase further, calibration as mentioned here requires inspection of each device one by one, so I recognize that one Issue is whether we can solve such technical problems.

This article sets minimum standards for periodic inspections, so I think it will be difficult to abolish this. However, if necessary inspections can be conducted using digital tools, I think it will be possible to explicitly show that it conforms to the current regulations.

That's all for the explanation.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

Please let us know if you have any comments or questions about the explanation you just gave. Thank you, Dr. Ahn.

Vice Chairman Annen: Thank you very much for your explanation.

I am very encouraged that you will consider advancing the phase, but I think that the overwhelming number of general restaurants will be a problem. In that case, how much introduction of digital technology is possible?

For example, technology for automatic calibration of thermometers is available, but the initial cost is too high, or whether automatic calibration is possible for measurement equipment other than thermometers. In addition, whether it is possible for small and medium-sized business operators to introduce it at present, or whether there is a prospect of cost reduction in the not-so-distant future, I would like to hear your views on these points.

Manager Miki: Thank you very much for Thank you for your question.

As shown on page 5 of the slide, we are aware that there are a large number of small and medium-sized general restaurants as you said.

Against this backdrop, we are creating a manual for general restaurants and other establishments to conduct their own inspections. However, the manual also provides procedures for operators to confirm calibration without spending money. If there is a system that can perform automatic calibration, for example, without taking such time and effort, it will be a matter of cost, so I believe that the decision on whether to introduce such a system will be made by the operators.

We are not aware of the extent to which things other than temperature are technically possible, so it is somewhat up to the discretion of the business operator to decide which one to choose.

Vice Chairman Annen: .

I would like to ask you a follow-up question. Is it your policy to update the contents of the guidebook as needed and to introduce new technologies?

Manager Miki: Thank you very much for Thank you for your question.

The guidebook itself is mainly made by business associations, and Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare will check the contents. Therefore, if business associations have such a good thing and want to add it, I think we will include it in the guidebook. I think we will proceed with it while coordinating with business associations.

Vice Chairman Annen: That's fine for now. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

Anything else? Dr. Inadani, please.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

I believe this is related to the last point. I believe that there is a strong incentive for business operators themselves to maintain their own level of food hygiene and safety. The reputation of having an upset stomach after eating at that restaurant will cause great damage to business operators, so in the sense that it is relatively easy for business operators to work on incentives to improve themselves, I believe that there are parts where the premise is different from other regulation.

If that is the case, if the system is such that the business operators you just mentioned are asked to check what they think about these things, as Professor Ahn mentioned earlier, I feel that it is very important to make it easier for them to access information in a way that may be possible. In other words, by realizing that there is a possibility that various business operators can use these new technologies, I feel that it will be an opportunity for business operators to discover initiatives that can reduce costs and maintain a safer state. I thought that there is a possibility that small business operators will make improvements on their own in a way that may be possible. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): , Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare, what do you think about this point?

Manager Miki: Thank you very much for , I agree with what you just said. I believe that some business operators are taking a stance that they should at least protect their sanitary conditions because food poisoning, of course, causes enormous damage and is associated with credit problems.

Under such circumstances, I believe that if there is a good thing that costs as little as possible and requires as little time and effort, it is also the attitude of business operators to use it as much as possible. If we can obtain proposals from business operators and organizations on such things, and if we can create a mechanism to introduce such things, I believe that it will proceed well.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

Do you have any other questions? May I?

Then, I would like to continue to coordinate with the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare (MHLW) on the phase and establish a policy. Thank you.

Thank you for your explanation, MHLW.

Manager Miki: Thank you very much for . We look forward to your continued support.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): That's all for the second part.

My third question is 3. Periodic surveys of the use of agricultural land.

In this regard, consideration is being made to utilize satellite images for the survey of the use status of agricultural land, and the Secretariat will report on the status.

I will mainly explain two points. The first is an overview of regulation, and the second is the status of the review and the status of the use of satellite images.

With regard to your first question, the outline of regulation, please refer to the text of the materials. Article 2-2 of the Agricultural Land Act provides that "a person who has ownership, the right of lease, or any other right to use or derive profit from cropland must ensure the appropriate and efficient use of the cropland for agricultural purposes."

In order to optimize the use of agricultural land, specifically, the accumulation and consolidation of agricultural land use by farmers, the prevention and elimination of idle agricultural land, and the promotion of new entries, surveys of the use of agricultural land are to be conducted once a year. Paragraph 1 of Article 30 is described here, but the frequency is specified to be once a year.

In addition, this survey is positioned as an organization that promotes efforts to optimize the use of agricultural land, etc., and in principle, one agricultural committee in each municipality is supposed to conduct this survey.

As a result of the investigation, if the agricultural land is determined to be idle, it will be leased to an agricultural land bank by the decision of the governor, or fixed asset tax will be imposed on it, which will cause a certain disadvantage to the owner of the agricultural land for the purpose of optimizing the use of agricultural land.

As for the materials, an extract from the notice on the operation of the Agricultural Land Act is included under the provisions of the Agricultural Land Act. The method of investigation is specified here. In the investigation, information on the unused agricultural land is collected, and if it is confirmed that weeds are growing due to visual inspection from the road, photographs are taken and that fact is recorded in drawings and the like.

In addition to the information collected in this way, the Agricultural Commission determines whether or not the farmland is idle by taking into account the standard method of using the farmland and the characteristics of agriculture in the area.

Although not described here, the same notice also specifies the period for conducting the survey, and the usage survey is specified to be conducted around August and summer every year.

Next, regarding the second point of the explanation, the status of the review, etc., an excerpt from an article by the National Agricultural Newspaper is included as a related article in the lower half of the material. The article is titled "Using Satellite Images to Reduce Verification Work for Agricultural Land Patrol Analysis Application Demonstration Test."

Here, the efforts of the Agricultural Commission of Azumacho in Unzen City, Nagasaki, are introduced. Regarding the survey conducted by the Agricultural Commission, demonstration experiments of farmland patrol using a satellite image analysis app is being conducted.

The usage survey is conducted during the hot season around August every year, and members of the Agricultural Affairs Committee and others are working while being worried about heatstroke and other problems. Under the demonstration experiments, members of the Agricultural Affairs Committee enter agricultural land with a tablet device, and for agricultural land that has been determined by the app to have a 70% or higher possibility of being abandoned farmland, the visual inspection is repeatedly confirmed. For agricultural land that has been determined to have a less than 70% possibility of being abandoned farmland, the efficiency is posted with a work bulletin board, which is also confirmed.

As a result, the committee members said that the survey was easier than the previous survey.

In regard to this matter, the Government of Japan's efforts to expand the use of satellite data are being advanced with the aim of promoting the appropriate use of satellites for the efficiency and advancement of government and local government operations. Deliberations are being advanced, including the results of the demonstration experiments of the Agricultural Commission that I just mentioned, with the cooperation of the Cabinet Office and the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries.

The Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries will review the aforementioned notification and the guidelines for the implementation of the usage survey by around June this year, and make improvements so that the transition can be made to the survey using satellites and drones from the usage survey in fiscal 2022.

That's all the report from the office.

I am sorry, but due to the time limitation, I will only report on this matter. If you have any questions, please contact the office later.

That's all for regular inspection's business.

I will return the proceedings to Mr. Ahn Neung here. Thank you.

Vice Chairman Annen: .

I would like to ask Counselor Osawa, who is in charge, to proceed with the proceedings from here on. Thank you.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the , such as resident and full-time regulation. Nice to meet you.

Today's fourth hearing will be held on the agenda of 4. Stationing of medical care Office Managers for Advanced Management Equipment, etc.

Then, Director Sekino of the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare medical care Equipment Examination and Control Division, please make an announcement.

Manager Sekino: As Mr. . Nice to meet you.

Based on the materials, I would like to introduce the current situation in regulation, which is the theme of today's meeting.

On the second page that I am showing you now, for those who are so-called distributors of highly controlled medical care equipment, etc., I am showing the provisions that have been set forth regarding the manager, which is today's theme, and Article 39-2 of the Pharmaceutical and Medical Equipment Act requires that distributors have a manager.

Please show me page 3. Today's theme is mainly the manager's part, but I don't know if it fits with the meaning of the regulation. The root of why the manager is supposed to perform various duties is specified as each act, duty, and observance to be performed by a licensed distributor under the Pharmaceutical and Medical Instruments Act. To begin with, in response to the responses based on various laws and regulations made by the distributor, the manager is in a position to manage them at the sales office in the form entrusted by the distributor. Therefore, the responsibility of the distributor and the observance are described in the meaning.

You will understand everything if you look at it, so I will explain it in a nutshell, but first, there is a part to prepare books related to management, or to ensure the quality of products to be sold.

In the fourth or fifth circle from the top, when a complaint is received, it will be recalled. Behind this is a response to an emergency, such as a problem with the medical care equipment itself or a defective product. It is necessary to investigate the cause, improve the situation, communicate with each business partners, and recall the actual product.

In addition, the seventh from the top is education training for employees, and the second from the bottom is communication to manufacturers and distributors in the event of a problem. These are the requirements for distributors.

Page 4, please. In the same way, as matters to be observed, we will introduce what is required of distributors, etc. in terms of clarifying the authority of managers, developing systems, and creating records.

Please go to page 5. Regarding the matters related to the business office manager in the main topic, as stated in the upper box as a legal provision, I believe that the business office manager will be in charge of supervising employees, managing equipment and goods to be handled, and paying necessary attention to various business operations at the business office on the spot, as entrusted by the seller, etc.

In the Ordinance for Enforcement of the Pharmaceutical and Medical Safety Law, which is a subordinate law, Article 164 is indicated. It is written about the books, but the part that the manager actually takes on is in Paragraph 2, and he or she takes on the role of entering the matters described in Items 1 to 5 in the books. In other words, rather than writing in the books itself, the matters described in Items 1 to 5 are, as I mentioned earlier, the parts that the manager actually takes on in the sales office are reflected in this part. I would like you to read it in terms of interpretation such as the status of training, the status of quality assurance, the status of response to defective products, and the understanding of the current status of whether or not education training is properly conducted.

Please go to page 6. Similarly, in Article 172 of the Ordinance for Enforcement, operations and matters to be observed continue to be written. Regarding this, since the quotation of the article is written as it is, it is a little difficult to read, so in the margin, *, it is written for interpretation, including the authority of the actual manager. I would like to repeat what I said earlier, but I believe that the authority for supervision of operations, instructions, and the like is given, and the management of equipment and facilities, and the like.

Please refer to page 7. This is a notification in the guidelines for your reference, but it was attached as a reference because it was made clear at the notification level that various things should be actually done.

Please go to page 8. I think this is the last slide, but I have three points on the far left. They are whether or not there are jobs that can be performed by teleworking, what will happen if the resident regulation is eliminated, and in the third place, I have a Issue about concurrent jobs, so I have organized them in a table.

Since the manager is the implementer, it has been operated under the interpretation that it is a resident, so I think it is currently positioned as PHASE1. As the phase to be aimed at, in the top column, there are some concerns or parts that we would like to make a validation, but we have placed PHASE2 because it is possible to change the operation by digital technology.

In that case, what kind of things will be considered, or what Issue will consider to dispel the concerns, is written in the middle part. First of all, what kind of digital technology is currently in practical use, how well it can be maintained for the way of management currently performed by the manager, whether it can be properly and rationally deployed in sales offices, including costs, if such environments are developed, I believe that transition will be possible in PHASE2.

If a problem occurs in a product, it may affect human health and life. In terms of speed and readiness in such a case, it depends on what kind of digital technology is used, but I believe it is necessary to confirm or make a validation.

It also adds that it is necessary to pay attention to the digital environments of the other party who actually uses the medical care equipment, such as the customer, business partners, or medical institutions.

Needless to say, if the infrastructure is down, if it's down due to a cyberattack, you need to have an alternative.

In light of this, we believe that it is appropriate to position the use of digital technology as one of the options, not necessarily to shift or transfer all technologies to digital technology, but to use digital technology as one of the options as long as it is effective in a reasonable manner with a proper current management system or in a state in which the actual conditions of management are sufficiently secured.

With regard to the issue of holding more than one post, I would like to see validation clear up the issue of whether or not the effectiveness will be improved. On the other hand, there are cases in which prefectural governors are licensed distributors, and in such cases, the authority of local government may be subject to a different law, but we have raised one point of attention because it may be necessary to sort out matters including this.

That's all from me.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the .

If you have any comments or questions about the current explanation, please do so. Member Inadani, please.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various Thank you for your explanation.

To give you my honest impression, I get the impression that this story is quite close to a compliance issue in a broad sense. In other words, I get the impression that this is the type of regulation where you say, "Please take responsibility for quality control, etc.," or "Please respond when there is a problem."

In that case, the question of what kind of incentive structure should be created in order to strengthen compliance should be the main body of the discussion, and I think it is better to look at it from the perspective that the company uses various technologies while devising ways to make it more effective and efficient.

What I was concerned about from such a perspective is that, conversely, at present, there is not enough incentive for companies to properly implement compliance by themselves without regulation. I would like to ask if you have created various regulation in this way.

In other words, if we do not make a regulation in advance, even if the company voluntarily asks us to be responsible for safety and quality assurance, we cannot take proper action if something happens. It is difficult to take action. Please confirm whether this is the case.

Manager Sekino: As Mr. Thank you for your question.

As you have just stated, the Pharmaceutical and Medical Equipment Control Law is basically a law for the management and regulation of health and sanitation, such as medical care equipment, which is used in medical care and which may pose a risk to humans depending on the degree of risk, and for the proper handling of such equipment. Therefore, in principle, prohibitions are lifted by the act of permission or approval under the law.

Therefore, the state in which the product itself is distributed or used is removed in the form of limited approval, permission, etc., so we ask the distributor to work while giving approval in the form of permission. It is exactly the part of compliance that is properly performed including management of the products to be handled.

Recently, it is called governance, but there have been quite a few cases in which accidents have occurred as a result of not taking proper actions. There is also a demand for considerable strengthening of governance, including the internal communication system between superiors and subordinates. The current system has been established, so I believe that the theme will be from the point of view you mentioned.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

I also believe that this point is extremely important. In short, I believe that there are places where the mechanism for corporate sanctions has not been established compared to other countries. My specialty is corporate scandals and corporate sanctions, and I feel that there are many similar problems when I think about these matters in other digitalization. I would like to share that I am aware of these problems, and I would like to make some moves toward the establishment of more rational systems. I would appreciate your reply.

I would also like to ask about another point of concern. For example, in the case of violation of regulation, there are currently administrative sanctions such as suspension of business or suspension of qualifications, which I believe are extremely powerful. On the other hand, I am a little concerned about the fact that there are cases in which only a specific manufacturer can manufacture medical care equipment or a specific business operator can control it well. In the case of foreign countries, when sanctions are imposed on medical care equipment or medicine, they are devised so that as much as possible serious damage will not be caused elsewhere. Do you feel that this is a problem?

Manager Sekino: As Mr. .

Since this is regulation, it is a general rule to take appropriate measures in accordance with law in the event of a violation. However, as you said, it is true that there are cases in which it is necessary to be cautious in making decisions on administrative measures against a company that supplies only one company and handles a product for which there is no other alternative means of treatment.

I believe it will depend on the severity of the case, so the final decision will be made on an individual basis. The fact is that there are quite a few cases where a comprehensive decision including humanitarian aspects has to be made.

That's all.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

I'm sorry, but in other countries, for example, if there are problems in compliance, management, or governance in a broad sense, there are systems that eventually require a change in management or modify the corporate system itself. I thought that if we combined these systems, we would be able to respond to your concerns. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the Next, Ochiai members, please.

Ochiai Member: .

I would like to ask you while looking at page 8 in particular. There is a point about whether the manager of the sales office can implement telework. Since you answered the entire question, I did not understand how telework was organized.

Last year, at the medical care and Nursing Care Working Group of the regulatory reform Promotion Council, I think I was in charge of the manufacturing of program medical care equipment, and I thought you said that teleworking itself is not operated in a way that it is not possible. There was a part where I did not understand the relationship between that case and this case, so I wanted to ask you to tell me about it.

Manager Sekino: As Mr. . The theme at that time was, I'm sorry to be vertically divided, but I myself communicated with a responsible engineer of a manufacturer who handles only program medical care equipment, so-called software. In short, I did not use the term telework in relation to the treatment of the person in charge of the manufacturing site, but in some cases, it may be possible to communicate at home.

Regarding this, as you said, it does not necessarily have to be the place of manufacture. At present, there are many manufacturers who do not understand such an interpretation, so I think it is an example that some kind of document will be issued to clarify it, and it will be dealt with at the end of last fiscal year.

I did not use the word "teleworking" at that time, but I think they have the same meaning. In this case, what I wrote in the third column from the left on page 8 in the column "Issue" for advancing the phase is not limited to the limited method of teleworking, but rather, I thought that there are various digital technologies that can be used. So, I broadly answered that it is possible to use digital technologies to a wide extent, depending on the degree and content of the technologies, even if they are not actually used. So, I would like you to understand that it is a phrase, and that it does not mean that I have glossed over the content of the business individually, but that it is widely written in the sense that it depends on the technology.

Ochiai Member: .

I think there may be such a part, and I thought I threw Issue as a whole, so each of them may have different levels, so I think the teleworking part may have different themes. There may be some common parts in terms of ensuring governance, and depending on whether it is a thing or a program, what can be done or not if you are not on site is different.

In the case of the program, I think it may not be a matter of how the field works. In that sense, there may be some restrictions on teleworking, but is it possible to expand the scope of teleworking while validation?

Manager Sekino: As Mr. 's, it would be the maintenance of effectiveness written in the top row of this table. If the effectiveness increases, it may be an exaggeration to say that the methodology does not matter, but I believe that the ultimate key is whether or not the work of the manufacturer or the manager is properly performed by ensuring that the effectiveness is secured to some extent.

That's all.

Ochiai Member: .

I believe you are absolutely right, and while the purpose of regulation itself, i.e., the degree of governance, remains unchanged, in short, without using a specific method of being on-site, I believe we are talking about how much governance can be achieved as if we were on-site. In particular, we were discussing teleworking, but in relation to resident regulation, if teleworking is allowed one day a week, it will gradually be related to the resident regulation, and I think the points of contention are common in how to organize them. In that sense, as you wrote here, I believe it is important to consider the same points as a whole.

I think there are parts that can be organized in the teleworking part, and within that, without changing the target, I think what kind of method can be used to respond in a way that maintains the original governance. I think it is more of a technology replacement than regulation mitigation, and I think there is also a part that says that we are aiming for PHASE2 to be able to be done at the same level. I would like to ask you to proceed to such a form while making as much validation as possible. Thank you.

Manager Sekino: As Mr. said, as it is also written in the fifth circle, since it is one of the options, I have an image of digital technology as an alternative method, so I understand that this is probably a common recognition. Thank you very much.

Ochiai Member: .

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the In that case, Mr. Nemoto, thank you for your cooperation.

Nemoto Constituent: .

I would appreciate it very much if you could consider it in this way. What I would like to ask at that time is that it is possible to guarantee the effectiveness of Issue at the top of the same page 8. Please let me confirm what you think the effectiveness was maintained by. There was a part of the book, but if all of it is OK, I would like to know if you think the effectiveness was maintained, and if there are any further details for each item.

In short, when considering how digital alternatives can be used, I don't think it is possible to determine whether or not it is possible without such characteristic, or each item. Could you please tell us your thoughts on this?

The most important part of this is probably the second part, ○, which I believe should be implemented without delay. I understand that it is acceptable if this level is equal to or higher than the level of safety, which is the core of the current regulations. Is that correct?

The third point in ○ is a little difficult to understand, and it is necessary to pay attention to the digital environment of the other party. However, since we will be in contact with the sales office, we are thinking that it would be good if we could respond in the same way as the sales office at another location. The third point is whether a special one is necessary.

Fourth, I would like to ask about the suspension of infrastructure due to disasters and other incidents. Is it correct to understand that if we can respond to these issues with the same level of discipline as I mentioned in my second question, that would be OK?

That's all.

Manager Sekino: As Mr. .

I would like to answer one by one from the back. First of all, with regard to the fourth from the top, such as in the event of a disaster, I believe that we have the same understanding because it means the same level as the current situation.

The relationship with the counterparty is one level higher than that. It probably depends on what kind of digital technology the manager of the sales office who is the party concerned uses, but as shown in the first line, it is a balance between being able to make contact in an instant, which will improve effectiveness, and such a place. This is not a strong Issue, but rather a recognition that attention is necessary.

Of course, there is a counterparty, and the counterparty is not a sales office but a distributor, so the counterparty may be the parent manufacturing facility, or it may be a marketing authorization holder, which is a little difficult to understand. Unlike a distributor, a marketing authorization holder is the position that is most responsible for obtaining approval for the products of medical care Equipment, and is in the position of reporting to the government when a problem occurs with medical care Equipment, and providing such information promptly.

The roles of the distributor are close to the end users, such as the medical institutions, so if various events that occur in the field, such as the medical institutions, are properly detected, it is necessary to pay attention to whether the effectiveness of the relationship will be improved, such as whether the information can be conveyed to the marketing authorization holder who is obliged to report it to the government. The relationship between stakeholders in the Pharmaceutical and Medical Safety Act is a little complicated, so it is difficult to understand, but it is the part of the relationship.

The second point is when a problem occurs. This is quite important, but in the end, it will affect people and cause and spread health damage. The extent to which the problem has been limited depends on the individual event, so it is not possible to determine within how many days the response should have been made. However, it is difficult to generalize because there is a trade-off between the delay in responding to individual cases and the possibility that the second or third death would not have occurred if the response had been made within the same day. In any case, I believe that the extent to which the response could have been made depends on the degree of accountability, the validation of the incident, or the review of the response situation.

In that sense, the first point is also the same. What is particularly important is that, rather than the ledgers, there are cases in which defective products or defects occur, as in the second point, and cases in which the product itself is stored in the sales office of the distributor. I believe that the question is whether the quality of the product has deteriorated and how much attention can be paid to such matters. I believe that it is easy for us to grasp the specific form of technology when we can see what kind of technology can change this.

There may be some parts that are not answered, but I have answered four.

Nemoto Constituent: Speaking from the last point, when it comes to the state of technology, I think that technology cannot respond unless the requirement is clear, so I thought that it is necessary to disclose in detail what the requirement is required by the Pharmaceutical and Medical Equipment Act.

In particular, there was a comment from the manufacturer, but in the case of complex equipment, I think that there are very few cases where the data system is viewed by the distributor. In the case of monitoring, the sales office cannot grasp the situation even if they are looking at it, so I felt that it is only the case where the manufacturer is looking at the data that can be grasped before signs of failure, etc. appear.

I think that the discussion of the digital environment starts with the initial telephone call, and I think that it is a part in which drawings or data can be exchanged on a daily basis. It is usually understood that it is the medical institutions side that has the least such an environment, so if we can respond to that level, what is being done in the current discipline system can be sufficiently secured. I don't need an answer, but I would like you to clarify your solicitation. I had the impression that it could not be done otherwise.

That's all.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the time is limited, but Mr. Ochiai, please be brief.

Ochiai Member: .

Listening to the discussion now, I would like to look at this again. There were discussions about problems, complaints, and collection. In particular, in the case of programs, there are no materials on site, so it is not a substitute technology in the first place, and I think there are no sites in the first place. In terms of complaints and communications, telephone transfers are usually carried out now, and there are many cases in which we outsource, for example, call center operations. Even if we send them by fax instead of e-mail in consideration of the other party, we can send them by Internet fax, so at least in the case of programs, I thought it would not be so relevant. In terms of infrastructure outages and cyberattacks, in the case of digital, I think it is a matter of whether the BCP plan for communications is in place. Whether there are materials on site or not, it seems that we can respond in the same way as in the case of programs, and I think it is a Issue that can be sorted out to some extent. In the case of materials, I think there are still parts that are not on site, but in particular, I would like you to actively consider the program.

That's all.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the .

If you don't mind, I'd like to end this session here because I have limited time.

We would like to ask MHLW to continue to consider the matter based on today's discussion. Thank you very much to everyone in MHLW.

Regarding the next hearing, I would like to discuss 5. Stationing of chief radio operators, etc. I would like to ask Mr. Ogiwara, Director of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications Radio Policy Division, to make an announcement. Thank you.

Manager Ogiwara: Please turn over the cover of the document and look at page 1. Regarding the Radio Operator Supervisor System, first of all, the purpose and purpose are summarized. As you are aware, radio waves travel in space, and if you make a mistake when communicating using radio waves, it may interfere with other communications.

For this reason, under the Radio Act, in principle, people who have acquired a certain level of knowledge and skills related to radio waves operate radio equipment. This is called the radio operator system, and it is operated under this principle.

In such a situation, radio communication technology is advancing, and the use of radio waves is rapidly spreading. I think some people have not only one smartphone but also two or three. In order to further promote the use of radio waves, in May 1990, quite some time ago, the Radio Operator Supervisor System was introduced, which allows only qualified radio operators to operate radio stations. Under the supervision of the Radio Operator Supervisor System, even unqualified persons can operate radio equipment.

I would like to explain the outline of the system in No. 2 and below. In the lower half, as I said, under the Radio Act, a radio station licensee appoints a chief radio operator, and under the supervision of the chief radio operator, even an unqualified person can operate the radio equipment.

As for the radio operator in charge, I would like you to see the second circle. Since you are supervising an unqualified person, your main duty is to accurately understand the status of the operation of the radio equipment being operated by the person and to give appropriate instructions when necessary.

In addition to that, in this system, five tasks, which are written in small letters at the lower left, are positioned as the duties of the radio operator in charge. Some of these tasks do not require real-time performance, for example, planning and conducting training, or preparing documents.

As I said at the beginning, the most important thing in particular is to accurately understand the operation of radio equipment by unqualified persons and to give appropriate instructions. Unqualified persons who operate radio equipment are required to follow the instructions of the chief radio operator.

Please refer to the following page. This section describes the procedures. When a radio station license holder is appointed, it is mandatory for the radio station license holder to notify the Minister for Internal Affairs and Communications to that effect and to have the radio station license holder take a training course.

The circle below it is a part closely related to what is listed here as a Issue. As a general rule, the supervision performed by the radio operator in charge is to be performed by an unqualified person who operates the radio station in order to prevent interference and obstruction to other radio stations due to erroneous operation or equipment failure. In other words, the system is based on the premise that the radio operator is close to the radio station, but currently, in certain cases, it is not necessary to be close to the radio station.

In that case, it is written in small letters below * 2 that we want the director to meet these requirements, but as stated here, it is sufficient to meet the three elements of presence, orderability, and continuity.

Regarding accessibility, it has been institutionalized in the form of a limited list of two cases. As described in (1), it is the case where radio equipment is operated under the supervision of a chief radio operator in one premises.

(2) is an unmanned radio station. For example, there is a relay radio station on a mountain, but if it is controlled and operated by another radio station, and in that case, if a means of communication with the chief radio operator is secured, an unqualified person can climb up the mountain and operate it.

We would like you to pay attention to the possibility of instruction. In order to ensure the possibility of instruction, it is also possible to use communication means.

I would like to show you the Issue for future consideration. In order to prevent interference or other interference to other radio stations when an unlicensed person operates a radio station under the supervision of a radio operator in charge, I believe it is necessary to take specific measures such as quickly replacing the operation by the radio operator in charge or immediately stopping bad radio waves so that other radio stations do not suffer from such problems in the event of an operation error by an unlicensed person or equipment failure.

The same applies to remote supervision using a communication network, and we believe that it is necessary to ensure that the chief radio operator can take such measures appropriately.

I am aware that you have mentioned it as a point of contention this time, but in terms of teleworking, digital technology has advanced, so various things can be done.

When considering teleworking using networks, first of all, radio stations are used in various ways in various situations, so I think it is necessary to clearly understand the conditions necessary for supervising the appropriate operation. For example, when the chief radio operator supervises remotely, there is an unqualified person who operates the radio station on the site, and what kind of information about the radio station is required at that time. In that case, whether or not video is required, or whether or not position information is required in the case of drones, should be clarified.

It is sometimes said in one word that it depends on digital technology, but there are various digital technologies, so I think it is necessary to consider what kind of technology is needed.

In any case, we are aware that there are several such Issue to be considered, but in the modern era of digital technology, it is necessary for licensees to efficiency their work as much as possible, and if Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications staff members also make such a efficiency, it will lead to efficiency of their work, so we would like to actively proceed with consideration.

However, Issue, as I just mentioned, needs to be thoroughly examined at the same time, so first of all, we would like to thoroughly investigate the use of radio stations.

That's all for my explanation.

The document at the back shows the actual regulations of law.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the .

If you have any comments or questions about the current explanation, please let me know. Dr. Masushima, please.

Masujima Member: .

I have a license for amateur radio, but I thought it was amazing when such a rule was made. It was impossible for me to have a license when I played with basic radio waves, and I recognized that it was the same condition as not having a license to drive a car.

What is relaxing this part in the present situation is that teleworking is also wireless, so it seems strange that we are talking about wireless, but what we are doing is understanding that the exception rule will be applied if instructions are given from outside even remotely, communication means are always secured, the person is able to give instructions, and education training is done, but is this correct?

If you are able to do this, I felt that you would basically be able to respond to topics such as telework. However, I would appreciate if you could tell me the relationship between the story that there are various exceptions and the story that the phase cannot be specified, although you have summarized it by saying that we need to consider the phase separately by looking at various situations.

That's all.

Manager Ogiwara: .

My explanation may not have been sufficient, but on page 2, in the second annotation from the top, there are three requirements for supervision: presence, possibility of instruction, and continuity. Regarding 1. Presence, I am saying that in order to ensure presence, it is not actually necessary to be subordinate.

Regarding that, it is limited to the cases of (1) and (2), for example, in one premises. If it is a factory, if an unqualified person operates the radio equipment only in the factory, the chief radio operator can be anywhere in the factory. That is what is said in (1).

(2) refers to remote operation, but as stated in the first sentence, it is an unmanned radio station, in other words, a radio station that is operated automatically and is managed by other radio stations. For those that are automatically controlled and managed, it is stipulated that the chief radio operator may be far away as long as there is a means of communication.

What we are aware of is that, for example, when inspecting equipment using a drones in a factory, an unqualified person operates the drones by radio, and the chief radio operator supervises it from a distance by teleworking. Unfortunately, this does not fall under either (1) or (2). In (1), the chief radio operator must be in one premises, so in that sense, it is not allowed to supervise the operation of the radio system in the factory by teleworking.

That said, the use of digital technology will become important in the future, and there are various technologies. Therefore, depending on how the radio system is used, if the chief radio operator can monitor certain information remotely, there may be cases in which the operation of an unlicensed person can be supervised remotely. In that sense, I stated at the end that I would like to thoroughly investigate what kind of radio station usage conditions can be used to do so.

Masujima Member: I see. I understand the purpose very well. I vaguely thought that it was impossible for a person without a license to operate a radio, but it is true that there is a possibility that there is a possibility of remote operation, so I understand the context that you will positively consider it.

Manager Ogiwara: I would like to thoroughly consider in what cases remote work can be done.

Masujima Member: I understood very well. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the , nice to meet you.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various Thank you for your explanation.

I would like to ask you a little bit about this. I do not fully understand the mechanism of the machine that transmits radio waves remotely, so I may say something strange, but I believe you have mentioned that there is a way to monitor radio waves remotely. If so, can we go one step further and build a system by connecting the devices that transmit radio waves and adjusting the radio waves so that they do not interfere? I thought there is a world view in which each connected device is equipped with something that automatically adjusts the radio waves so that there is no interference in the area. I believe there was a case earlier in which the radio waves were automatically supervised, so I do not know if it is technically possible to make such an effort or advance to such a place. I would like to ask you a little bit about this.

Manager Ogiwara: .

In order to achieve the situation you mentioned, there is still a lot of Issue, and the technology has not yet been established to the point where radio stations automatically negotiate with each other to avoid interference. Therefore, when creating a system, it is necessary for engineers to adjust the output of radio waves in advance, and if radio waves fluctuate, it is necessary to take measures. In this situation, the fact is that this case must be considered.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

If such technologies are developed in the future, are you considering transition in such places?

Manager Ogiwara: : I think it is very difficult technically, but I think it is very wonderful that the use of AI will expand the use of such technology. Now, people in various fields are studying AI, so I would like to monitor such places well.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the , please.

Ochiai Member: I feel that you are considering it positively. Thank you very much.

I wanted to understand exactly where the Issue is, but when I say the director, I think it is natural for the person who is supervising to not be able to contact the person who is being supervised. However, for example, there are cases where it is written as one yard, which means that it is not always necessary to be in the same room, and it seemed to be an assumption that it is possible to be seen from another room. In such cases, I wanted to understand what kind of facilities are needed to be in a state of being supervised and what kind of things need to be instructed, but what do you think?

Manager Ogiwara: .

Being in the same yard does not mean that you have to be in the same room. If it is a factory, we believe that if you are in the factory, you can immediately rush to the plant in case something happens. Therefore, even at the time when this system was established, if you are in the same yard where the chief worker can immediately rush to the plant, you can take appropriate measures in case something happens. This is the rule.

For example, if you want to talk on the phone or operate the drones from a house that is a little away from you using the communication network, there are no regulations now that allow you to do so. However, in the future, when we consider how to enable the chief radio operator to operate the radio system remotely in one station, for example, if the drones mistakenly operates the radio system outside the station, it may have a negative impact on other radio stations. So, we must prevent this from happening. At this point, I think it is necessary to ensure that the radio operator always knows the location information of the drones on a computer or the like, and that the radio operator can appropriately give instructions when the location information approaches the outside. At this point, I think it is necessary to carefully consider what kind of place can be substituted with digital technology while investigating various ways to use the wireless LAN.

Ochiai Member: .

As you said, I thought it would be okay if, for example, the instructions could be overridden. However, when supervising, if, for example, there is a person in front of you and you are responding to them, I thought it would not be necessary to override the authority. What level are you actually at as a director? At this time, how much face-to-face is it, or how much response is required when you are together, and I think there is a work to match the level with the way of thinking. I don't think it is necessary to ease the regulation at all, but I think it is to maintain the level and substitute, so I hope you will continue to study it further.

Manager Ogiwara: .

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the time, we would appreciate it if you could send any further questions to the Secretariat.

I would like to ask the people of Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications to continue their consideration based on today's discussion. Thank you very much.

Then, in the next hearing, we will discuss the obligation to post the certificate of security service.

I would like to ask Mr. Suzuki, Chief of the Community Safety Planning Division of the National Police Agency, to make an announcement. Thank you very much.

Manager Suzuki: Today, I would like to explain about the certification of security services, so I would like to explain within the time frame you gave me.

Now, I will explain using slides.

Please see page 1. The main business of the security business is to protect the lives, bodies, and property of people, and the appropriateness of the implementation of the business has a significant impact on the safety of people's lives. Therefore, in order to ensure the appropriate management and operation of the business, a certification system is required under the provisions of the Security Business Act.

Article 4 of the Security Business Act stipulates that a person who intends to engage in the security business must obtain certification from the Prefectural Public Safety Commission that the person does not fall under any of the disqualification requirements prescribed in the items of Article 3 of the Security Business Act.

As you can see at the bottom of the slide, pursuant to the provisions of Article 5 of the Act, those who wish to obtain certification are required to bring their application documents, etc., together with the fee. After the examination, if the certification is granted, the certificate will be subject to Issue.

Pursuant to the provisions of Article 6 of the Act, an authorized security service provider is required to post a certificate of authorization at a readily visible location in its principal office.

Page 2 is the provision of Article 3 of the Act that provides for disqualification requirements for security services.

It is page 3, but the documents here are necessary for the application.

It is page 4. Next, I would like to explain about the Police Administrative Procedures Site operated by the police. The National Police Agency has established the Police Administrative Procedures Site as a trial website so that applications and other procedures can be made by a simple method via e-mail for routine procedures among some police-related procedures. The site has been in operation since June 2021.

In the case of security services, five procedures, such as notification of abolition, are covered.

In order to separately establish a full-scale system that can perform more procedures online in the future, the Director-General's Secretariat is leading the study. In order to contribute to improving the convenience of users, we are also considering identity verification using My Number Card, etc. and online payment of fees.

Please see page 5. Regarding the current phase of the certification of security services covered this time, the application for the certification of security services is PHASE2 ②, and the posting of the certificate is PHASE1 ①.

As for Issue (issue) at the bottom of the slide, it is what Mr. Digital Agency presented.

On page 6, the first point I received is about the expansion of the system for cashless payment to the police administrative procedure site.

In this regard, as I mentioned earlier, the Police Administrative Procedures Site was built as a simple system, and currently does not have an online payment function.

The fee system is a prefectural system, so it is necessary to coordinate with prefectural governments.

For this Issue, we are considering advancing the study in the full-scale system currently under consideration.

Please see page 7. The second issue I received is about ensuring the authenticity of a copy of the residence certificate, etc. and the authenticity of the digital issuance of the certificate.

In this regard, the current Police Administrative Procedures Site is a simple system on a trial basis, and does not have a function to confirm identity.

We believe that it is possible to ensure the identity of the applicant by using an electronic signature in the future. However, we believe that how to ensure that the content of the paper medium, such as a copy of the residence certificate, is the same as that of the paper medium of the application should be examined within a larger framework. We would like to continue to examine this matter.

Please see page 8. Regarding the third point of the discussion you gave me in the upper half, the posting of the certificate in regulation, in addition to announcing it on the Internet, it is suggested that the posting in the local area be maintained.

In this regard, we believe that it is desirable to continue posting information at the main business office from the viewpoint of protecting the digitally disadvantaged, while making it possible to make public announcements using the Internet.

Please take a look at the lower half of the slide. The fourth issue I received is whether it is possible to expand the certification procedure to the police administrative procedure site.

We believe that it is possible to consider the certification procedure in the full-scale system currently under consideration. However, the Police Administrative Procedures Site currently in operation is operated as a simple system, so it is considered that expanding it will be a low priority from the perspective of cost-effectiveness.

Please see page 9. Regarding the phase we aim for, in PHASE2, we are considering the direction of allowing means that conform to the digital principle.

That's all for the explanation.

From page 10 on the slide, statistical values and provisions are listed, so please refer to them.

That's all from the National Police Agency.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the .

If you have any comments or questions about the current explanation, please let me know. Member Masashima, please.

Masujima Member: . I thought you were considering it positively.

Overall, it is a feature that there are many police officers in local areas, and it is strange to say that each of them is independent, but I think that they are doing it. In particular, I think that there is a principle of using a common infrastructure in the digital principles. For example, there is a mechanism for identity verification that the government will create a common infrastructure, and I think that the government will introduce such a mechanism and create some kind of mechanism. Also, the payment part is also the same. I think that the settlement infrastructure will be built together, and I think that it is expected that the government will take measures such as using this in the digital principles.

At the same time, regarding the fact that there are prefectural police officers in each local government, I thought it was the policy of the Government of Japan to ensure that there is no duplication of specifications by asking them to use the same equipment in accordance with the Principles for the Utilization of Common Infrastructure. Therefore, I felt that it would be appreciated if measures could be taken in consideration of the Principles for the Utilization of Common Infrastructure.

That's all.

NPA Technical Planning Division: At present, the National Police Agency is building a common infrastructure system and a common police infrastructure. As you said earlier, the National Police Agency will centralize the information management system that has been developed in each of the 47 prefectures, and the 47 prefectures will use this system. We are promoting measures to prepare common functions for payment of fees, methods of identity verification, and so on, and have them used in common. Therefore, in relation to the security industry, we are considering building procedures by utilizing the common infrastructure developed by the National Police Agency, so please refer to it.

Masujima Member: I see. Thank you.

There was talk about how much vertical alignment would be done, and I was fully aware that there are various systems, such as the payment system and some other system, and that there are things that are running in each system. On the other hand, I heard that Mr. Digital Agency wants to do something that is common to all systems, and that the whole country is doing it, and I think there are various time horizons and projects that were originally implemented by each ministry and agency, so I felt that there was alignment.

It may depend on how far the project will go in the future, but there are various plans to development the infrastructure for identity verification and identity procedures such as online applications, and I don't know if the NPA will do all of this or not. I don't know how the project is progressing with other projects, but I thought it would be good if there was alignment on how to share the same things being done in various places.

I have no intention of interfering with each project, but I thought that all of you are working without cooperation while thinking about the same thing.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the and others? Mr. Inadani, please.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various . Thank you very much.

It may be too detailed for me, but I would like to ask you about the posting of the certificate. I don't think it is common for ordinary people to go directly to the office of a security company to sign a contract. I think that security companies are places where ordinary consumers ask large companies to do so, and I don't think that it is common for ordinary people to go to small security companies and look at them at the office. In that case, I felt that the ideal way to protect the digital weak is somehow different from protecting ordinary consumers, and I felt that even if we proceeded further, there would not be such a big problem. For example, do you have data on the size of the security company, how small the ordinary consumers are using, and so on?

Manager Suzuki: Thank you for your question.

I would like to tell you a little about the number of security companies. The latest data that has been compiled is the data for 2020. I would like to ask for your understanding, but there were 10113 security companies in 2020, and 9,056 of them had less than 100 employees, accounting for 89.5% of the total. In addition, 25.4% of the total had less than five employees, and there are many small and medium-sized companies and small and medium-sized business operators in the security business itself.

As you just said, it is true that major companies are very large companies, but when we look at the entire security business, it is the same situation as I just mentioned, and I think we must consider such aspects.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

I had an image that a small company, for example, a construction company concluded a contract individually, but does it mean that consumers often conclude a contract directly?

Manager Suzuki: Thank you for your question.

As you said, I believe that there are many cases in which the general public has a contract with a major company. On the other hand, in cases where a business operator has a contract with a security company, I believe that there are many small and medium-sized business operators, as I just mentioned.

Member Inadani: I understand that you are positively considering various .

I just thought that if it is done B-to-B, there is a different way to loosen it than when protecting the consumer itself.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the , I would like to thank you for your support.

Ochiai Member: .

I would like to ask a few questions for future consideration.

With regard to public funds, I believe that discussions were held at the regulatory reform Conference and other occasions on the use of eLTAX by ministries and agencies, mainly in Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications and Digital Agency. One question is whether there is a possibility of using such a platform.

On the other hand, depending on the local government, there have recently been efforts to make it possible to pay not only by credit card but also by electronic money for things such as over-the-counter payment. In this regard, for example, at an early timing, I think it is possible to leave it to the local government and use electronic methods where possible. What do you think about this?

With regard to identity verification, I believe there is talk of, for example, gBizID for business operators. On the other hand, for individuals, I believe there are things that are prepared in Digital Agency, including Public Personal Authentication. Please tell us your outlook on this.

That's all.

NPA Technical Planning Division: Thank you for your question.

In response to your question earlier about the relationship between public funds and the payment of fees, we are currently considering what types of methods can be used, and we are planning to build a system based on the most cost-effective design.

There are various payment methods for each local government, and you suggested using them. This is a system provided by the National Police Agency, so I think it is necessary for the 47 prefectures to be familiar with it to a certain extent, so I think we have to draw a line to some extent.

In addition, we are currently considering the use of gBizID as a method of identity verification, and we would like to use the Public Personal Authentication system.

As Mr. Masushima pointed out earlier, we will respond while paying close attention to the efforts being made by other ministries and agencies.

Ochiai Member: .

With regard to public funds, I believe there will be discussions on unifying public funds with Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications and other ministries and agencies, or on having ministries and agencies other than the NPA work together as much as possible, so I think it would be good to consider such a perspective. In the case of local government, I mentioned earlier that I would like to see if there is a place where we can do it early in the transition period, so I do not mean that we have to do it in the end. I believe that we have the same goal.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the would like to add that, as Mr. Ochiai pointed out just now and Mr. Masushima pointed out earlier, in relation to the Principles for Use of Common Infrastructure, for example, the infrastructure for identity verification or payment of fees should be created as a common infrastructure. We have received many requests from the business community about administrative procedures, and we are currently considering whether the Working Group can respond to them. I believe that there are various requests and requests from each ministries and agencies, and we would like to consider them while carefully listening to them.

Will there be anything else?

Because of time, I would like to end this session here, if you don't mind.

We would like to ask the members of the National Police Agency to continue to consider this matter based on today's discussion. Thank you very much.

The next session will focus on online viewing of the farmland ledger.

In this session, the Secretariat would like to introduce the efforts of the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries as a precedent case.

I will explain according to the material.

In this inspection, the regulation for on-site inspection or public inspection is subject to the inspection of compliance with the Digital Principles. This regulation is a regulation where citizens must visit public authorities to view information or documents held by public authorities. In the course of coordination with each ministry, it has been pointed out that transition to online viewing is not possible or inappropriate because the subject of viewing contains confidential information such as personal data.

As shown in the table, there are specific concerns, such as unauthorized photographing of browsing information, that is, a viewer takes a picture of a display with a smartphone or the like without permission, or it becomes easier for a person other than the applicant who is allowed to view the information to view the information with the applicant.

We believe that one effective solution to Issue is to take institutional measures to exclude personal data that are not necessary to achieve the purpose of browsing.

Going to the next page, I think that online browsing of the farmland ledger in the Ordinance for Enforcement of the Agricultural Land Act can be mentioned as a prior example in this regard.

As described in the middle, this is the farmland ledger organized by the Agricultural Commission. Here, the name of the owner of the farmland, the location of the farmland, the area, and each stroke are organized, and other rights and other matters are described.

When this information is made available for viewing on the Internet, the names of the owners of agricultural land or the other parties to the rights are excluded from the scope of disclosure and made available for viewing. Through these measures, we have realized digitalization in a form that considers privacy, and it is possible to view information online without time or location restrictions. We would like to horizontally develop such cases.

Because of the time, if you have any questions about this matter, please contact the Secretariat.

Next, I would like to move on to the eighth hearing. The eighth is the digitalization of the fire prevention manager training. I would like to ask Mr. Shiraishi, Chief of the Prevention Division of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications Fire Department, to make an announcement. Thank you.

Mgr. Shiraishi: materials.

Please see page 1. This is law related to fire prevention management training. Article 8, Paragraph 1 of the Fire Service Act provides that the managing authority of a property under fire prevention measures, such as schools, hospitals, factories, and department stores, that is specified by a Cabinet Order shall appoint a fire prevention manager from among persons who have the qualifications specified by a Cabinet Order and have him / her perform the services necessary for fire prevention management.

In the fire prevention management system, since the management of software is extremely important in order to ensure the fire prevention safety of buildings, fire prevention managers are specified according to the use and scale of the building.

As one of the requirements for the qualification of a fire prevention manager, a person who has completed the course of the fire prevention management course is specified in Article 3 of the Order for Enforcement of the Fire Service Act.

Please see page 2. The main body of the fire prevention manager training is prefectural governors, fire chief of municipalities, corporations registered by the Minister for Internal Affairs and Communications, which is called registered training institution, and these are the targets.

In addition, the type of training is divided into Class A fire prevention management training and Class B fire prevention management training according to the type of the property under fire prevention measures.

Class A fire prevention management training includes new training and re-training. Training is centered on classroom learning, but some fire departments incorporate practical skills, such as how to operate a fire extinguisher and indoor fire hydrant, to improve effectiveness.

The training hours, etc. are as shown in the table on the right.

Please see page 3. The purpose of fire prevention management is to prevent fires and reduce damage by designating a fire prevention manager in a property under fire prevention measures where a large number of people visit, work, or live, and having him / her create a fire defense plan and perform the operations necessary for fire prevention management based on this plan. These have been improved and strengthened as needed based on the lessons learned from past fires.

Please see page 4. This shows the flow of the fire prevention management course. Some applications for the course and payment of the course fee are made online or by credit card. At present, many are in In-person Courses, but some fire departments and registered training agencies are allowing online courses for new courses and re-courses.

The status of fire prevention management training is shown in the table on the right.

Please see page 5. As a precedent, Gifu City Fire Department Headquarters started online training this year for new training. We have adopted a hybrid method in which practical training for fire extinguisher operation and effect measurement are conducted face-to-face.

Please see page 6. The Fire Prevention and disaster risk management Association, a registered training organization, has started an online course for re-training of the Class-A Fire Management Course since fiscal 2021. I have heard that the number of participants will be expanded and re-training for companies will be conducted online from this fiscal year.

Please see page 7. Regarding the reasons for the application and the current situation, the Class A fire prevention management new course and the Class A fire prevention management re-course are arranged as PHASE2, Type 1 (I) and (ii).

Regarding Issue (issues) for advancing the phase, we have received four issues from the Secretariat. I would like to briefly explain each of them.

First of all, regarding the concept of the practical skill training, some fire defense headquarters are incorporating fire fighting training using fire extinguishers and experience of operating automatic fire alarm equipment in practical skills.

For example, at a Gifu City Fire Department Headquarters that holds a new class A fire prevention management course online, classroom lectures are held online, and practical skills and effect measurements are held face-to-face. In order to obtain the same effect as the previous course, we believe that it is necessary to devise a method of holding a combination of face-to-face and online lectures.

Next, regarding identity verification, the registered training institution responds by sending the password necessary for the course to the applicant.

I have heard that the Gifu City Fire Department Headquarters requires the attachment of an identification card with a face photo at the time of online application, sends the ID and password necessary for the online course, and directly verifies the identity at the time of In-person Courses for practical training, etc.

In order to properly conduct online training in the future, we believe that it is necessary to make efforts to understand various other cases such as this case of identity verification.

Thirdly, in response to the fact that there are various types of training providers, we are sharing the methods and Issue of online training provided by fire departments and registered training institutions with each fire department, investigating the status of implementation and plans for online training, and considering the creation of guidelines to support each fire department.

Please see page 8. Fourth, regarding Issue based on the introduction of online training so far, I have heard from training institutions that conduct online training that there is a cost Issue in terms of initial introduction costs and maintenance costs. I believe that the introduction of online training will be further promoted if an online training system centered in Digital Agency, for example, a common platform, is developed.

We will make efforts to grasp the situation in Issue while listening to the situation and grasping the information.

Regarding the Issue for advancing the phase, since the fire prevention management course may be attended by elderly people, I think it is necessary for the online course and the In-person Courses to coexist.

We also believe that practical training is a useful element in improving and ensuring the quality of fire prevention managers.

We believe that operation costs are an important factor, and we believe that it is necessary to share information by making efforts to grasp development information on convenient and inexpensive systems that can handle a series of processes from application to issuance of certificates and the status of commercialization.

On page 9, we would like to aim for PHASE3, and for the Class-A Fire Prevention Management Course, we aim for digital completion.

The following are law and others for reference.

That's all for the explanation.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the .

If you have any comments or questions about the current explanation, please let me know. Member Masashima, please.

Masujima Member: Thank you for your explanation.

Thank you very much for using the common platform to advance online and making various efforts.

I would like you to tell me about it. Gifu City is in a situation where it is working hard very much ahead of other cities. When I understand why they are working hard in this way, I think other cities will be able to do the same, so I would like you to tell me about it.

If you expand what Gifu City is doing, I feel that similar things can be done in various places. Do you think such a method of expansion seems difficult? Please tell us these two points.

Mgr. Shiraishi: .

In Gifu City, I heard that the fire chief gave instructions in 2020 and quite a lot of action was taken in response to the novel coronavirus. I believe that the fact that the city is not so large in scale and is making such efforts will be a reference for other municipalities, so we would like to collect more cases of this kind, listen to the situation in depth, and take a form that can be developed horizontally.

In addition, I have heard that fire defense headquarters other than Gifu Prefecture, such as in Tokyo, are currently considering implementing it online. I have heard that it will be possible around the end of fiscal 2023, so in any case, I would like to promote it while widely disseminating such information.

Masujima Member: Thank you very much.

It's difficult. When I tell Mr. local government to do it quickly and to use the common infrastructure, I think there are some difficult parts such as what order to do it in, but I would be grateful if you could work on it as a positive activity.

Mgr. Shiraishi: .

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the et al? Member of Ochiai, nice to meet you.

Ochiai Member: .

We are proceeding positively, but there are also points that we would like you to proceed based on precedent cases.

As for how to proceed in the future, I believe there are large and small ones. I believe that it is not possible to implement it uniformly, including how to proceed with identity verification and the use of digital means. However, I would like to make it possible for as many people as possible to use it as soon as possible. I believe that there are cases where the practical part must be done in front of you, but for other parts, I would like to ask you to work well so that you can proceed from places where you can participate as much as possible. What do you think?

Mgr. Shiraishi: As you said, there is a considerable difference between places with many needs for training and places with few. Therefore, we would like to work on as large a place as possible, such as Tokyo, which I mentioned earlier, and ordinance-designated cities, so that they can be addressed first.

That's all.

Ochiai Member: .

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the et al? Is that all right?

In that case, I would like to end this session here.

We would like to ask the members of the Fire and Disaster Management Agency to continue to consider the matter based on today's discussion. Thank you very much.

For the next hearing, I would like to discuss the digitalization of the bar examination.

From now on, the meeting will be closed to the public, so I would like to ask all ministries and agencies other than Digital Agency and the Ministry of Justice to leave the meeting.

I would like to ask for a presentation from Mr. Mitani, Examination Manager of the Personnel Division of the Minister's Secretariat of the Ministry of Justice. Thank you very much.

Mr. Mitani: Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to explain this today.

I will explain what the Ministry is considering about the digitalization for the bar examination and the preliminary bar examination.

I would like you to listen while looking at the materials.

Please take a look from the left side above the document. I would like to give you an overview of the bar examination. As you may know, the bar examination is an examination to determine whether or not a person has the necessary knowledge and applied ability to become a legal professional, that is, a judge, prosecutor, or lawyer. If you pass the examination, you will be qualified to become a legal apprentice, and by completing the legal apprenticeship, you will be qualified to become a legal professional.

As for the content of the bar examination, there are three short-answer questions and four essay questions in eight fields. Currently, the short-answer questions are answered by handwriting on a mark sheet, and the essay questions are answered by handwriting.

The examination period is around mid-May every year for four days, three days for essay tests and one day for short-answer tests, and is held at seven test sites nationwide.

In order to take the bar examination, you need to complete law school or pass a preliminary test for the bar examination.

The number of people who took the bar examination in 2021 was 3,424, and 1,421 people passed the examination.

Next, I would like to explain the outline of the preliminary examination. Could you please take a look at the upper right side of the material I am showing you? The preliminary examination is an examination established to open the way to obtain legal professional qualifications even for those who do not go through law school. Those who pass the examination are qualified to take the bar examination.

As for the content of the preliminary test, there are 8 short-answer questions, 10 essay questions, and 2 dictation questions. Only those who pass the short-answer questions can take the essay questions, and only those who pass the essay questions can take the dictation questions.

As for the examination method, the short-answer method is to be answered by handwriting on the mark sheet, and the essay method is to be answered by handwriting.

Regarding the timing of the preliminary test, the short-answer test is held at seven test sites nationwide around the middle of May every year, the essay test is held at four test sites nationwide around the middle of July, and the oral test is held at one test site around the end of October.

There is no limit to the eligibility for the preliminary test.

In 2021, there were 11717 examinees, and the final number of successful candidates was 467.

The National Bar Examination Commission is responsible for conducting the bar examination and the preliminary examination, and we, the Personnel Affairs Division of the Minister's Secretariat of the Ministry of Justice, are in charge of the general affairs of the Commission.

Next, could you please take a look at the column called Issue in the middle of the document? I will explain about digitalization regarding the necessity of Issue in the bar examination and preliminary examination. Currently, in both of the two examinations, both the short-answer examination and the essay examination are to be answered by writing by hand. In particular, the essay examination has a feature that it is required to write a large part of the answer sheet by hand, which is unprecedented in other national examinations.

To give a specific image of the amount, the essay test for the bar examination requires a maximum of eight A4-sized answer sheets per question. The essay test has a total of nine questions, but there are seven questions with eight answer sheets and two questions with four answer sheets, so a maximum of 64 answer sheets will be prepared in total.

It has been pointed out that the method of the examination is as follows. Some people point out that the examination is an excessive test of administrative processing ability and may impose an unnecessary burden on the examinees. Others point out that it is not practical to require handwriting only for the examination, whereas it is normal to create business documents on a personal computer if you pass the examination and become a legal professional.

In addition, with regard to the Issue in terms of administrative work for the administration of the examination, under the current method, the work begins with the preparation of answer sheets for all examinees, and the answer sheets with the answers entered are collected and transported from examination sites throughout Japan. The collected sheets are scanned and converted into PDF data, and in order to ensure the fairness of the scoring, the necessary masking work is performed to make the sheets anonymous so that it is impossible to know who created the sheets, and the data is reprinted and returned to paper media. Then, the paper media is transported to the person in charge of scoring, which is a complicated work. In addition, in the examination of the examination papers, that is, in the scoring scene, there are many cases in which the handwritten characters entered on the answer sheets are difficult to read, and this places an unnecessary burden on the person in charge of scoring the examination papers.

In addition, it is the procedure for the examination. In terms of the examination procedure such as application, etc., at present, the application procedure, the examination slip, the Issue of the Acceptance Letter, etc., are only carried out by mail. The payment of the examination fee is also only made by revenue stamp.

As an effort to eliminate the current Issue, could you please take a look at the bottom column of the document? In order to improve the Issue, reduce the burden on examinees and graders, and improve convenience, we believe it is necessary to consider digitalization for both the bar examination and the preliminary examination.

In particular, we are considering the use of ICT for the short-answer test and the essay test, respectively. For example, we are considering the introduction of a test in which answer sheets are created using a computer. However, on the other hand, there are various Issue in using ICT in the test, such as whether or not it is possible to prevent cheating such as cheating and ensure the fairness and fairness of the test. Therefore, I believe that it is necessary to properly conduct research and examination toward the realization of this.

In addition to the use of ICT as I just mentioned, we are also considering making the examination procedures online. To be specific, we are considering making it possible to perform online the application procedures, the examination form, and the Issue of the Acceptance Letter, which are currently performed by mail. In addition, we are considering making it possible to pay the examination fees cashless, instead of using revenue stamps, which are used.

There are still many things to be considered in Issue, but we will continue to consider digitalization.

That's all for my explanation.

[Exchange of opinions on the digitalization of the bar examination will be closed to the public]

Secretariat OSAWA: It is almost time, but how about others?

If you don't mind, I'd like to close this session here.

I would like to ask the people of the Ministry of Justice to continue to consider the matter based on today's discussion. Thank you very much for your time today, Ministry of Justice. Now, I would like to return the proceedings to Mr. Annen.

Vice Chairman Annen: , Counselor, It was also a long time and really hard. Thank you very much.

That's all for the hearing.

We will continue to receive an explanation from the Secretariat. We will continue to receive an explanation from Counselor Osawa on the report on the status of coordination regarding permanent and full-time staff, In-person Courses, written notice, and on-site inspection.

[The status of coordination of permanent / full-time, In-person Courses, written notice, and on-site inspection is not disclosed]

Vice Chairman Annen: Regarding the "examination" mentioned in today's hearing, for example, some are under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice, and some are under the jurisdiction of other ministries and agencies, but I think that basically one can be applied. I think that there is a possibility that the overall return on investment will be better if such a part is viewed in a wider range, so I would like you to keep this in mind when considering it in the future. Finally, I would like to ask the Secretariat to explain about the holding of the next Working Group.

Secretariat (Osawa): There are three points from the Secretariat.

As for the next meeting of the Working Group, I would like to hold it this Friday, the 20th, at 2:30 p.m. Thank you.

Second, with regard to today's proceedings, part of the proceedings of the digitalization for the bar examination, which is the ninth point of the hearing, will not be made public, so if you do not have any objections, we will keep that part private.

In addition, if you do not have any objection to the matters to be reported that I have just explained, I would like to keep them private. Regarding the other parts, I would like to create minutes later and disclose them to the public after confirming them with everyone.

Third, with regard to the handling of today's materials, the final part of the report will be closed to the public, and the rest will be disclosed on the Digital Rincho website.

That's all.

Vice Chairman Annen: .

It was a very long session today, and I have caused a great burden to all the members and the secretariat. In particular, I would like to thank Counselors Takamatsu and Osawa for their outstanding performance.

Well, thank you very much for your time, everyone.