The 5th Study Group on the Ideal of "Mobility Roadmap"
Overview
- Date and Time: Monday, July 24, 2023 from 10:00 to 12:30
- Location: Kioi Conference Seminar Room A on the 4th floor of Tokyo Garden Terrace Kioi-cho (online)
- Agenda:
- Opening
- Presentation, Discussion
- "Re-design of area Transportation and Smart mobility" (Mr. Nakamura, Specially Appointed Professor of the University of Tokyo)
- "Visualization of the usage status of roads (expressways, national roads, prefectural roads, municipal roads) nationwide - A study of how to proceed toward the realization of road use data maintenance -" (Member Yamamoto)
- "Efforts by ministries and agencies" (Cabinet Office, NPA, Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, METI, MLIT)
- Adjournment
Conference Video
The conference is available on YouTube (Digital Agency official channel).
Materials
- Exhibit 1: Agenda (PDF/418KB)
- Exhibit 2: List of members (PDF / 332 kb)
- Handout 3: Previous Review (PDF / 944 kb)
- Material 4: "area Kotsu no Re-Design to Smart mobility" (PDF / 1,550 kb) (Materials announced by Mr. Nakamura, Specially Appointed Professor of the University of Tokyo)
- Material 5: "Visualization of the usage status of roads (expressways, national roads, prefectural roads, and municipal roads) nationwide - A consideration of how to proceed toward the realization of road use data maintenance -" (PDF / 2,322 KB) (Materials presented by Mr. Yamamoto, Member)
- Appendix 6-1: "Strategic Innovation Creation Program (SIP) Phase 3: Building a Smart mobility Platform" (PDF / 3,454 kb) (Materials announced by the Cabinet Office)
- Appendix 6-2: "Police Efforts for the Realization of automated driving" (PDF / 1,336 kb) (Materials announced by the National Police Agency)
- Appendix 6-3: "Next-Generation ITS Communications in the automated driving Era" (PDF / 5,904 kb) (Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications Presentation Materials)
- Appendix 6-4: "Status of Consideration of the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifelines" (PDF / 6,985 kb) (METI Presentation Materials)
- Appendix 6-5: "METI Initiatives and Policies on automated driving" (PDF / 2,930 kb) (METI Presentation Materials)
- Material 6-6: "Promoting New mobility Services" (PDF / 2,136 kb) (Materials announced by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism)
- Minutes (PDF/656KB)
Minutes
Counsellor Asayama: Thank you, Mr. . As it is on time, we would like to hold the fifth "Study Group on the Way of' Mobility Roadmap'" from now on.
Please be aware that this study group is live streaming and that a video recording will be released on the Digital Agency website after the end.
First of all, Mr. Murakami, Director-General, would like to say a few words. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much for your open discussion last time.
Today, I would like to thank you very much for explaining to the two experts about the concept of area public transportation, visualization of road usage throughout Japan, and so on, as well as for making time today for the cooperation of each ministry.
I would like to reiterate that "Mobility Roadmap," which will be connected in the future, is not a review meeting of the Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications, but a process in which all the matters that must be considered together with each ministry, including those that are being considered by each ministry, are included in the Roadmap, and the Roadmap is steadily raised to a Cabinet decision. In that sense, I understand that what each ministry is doing should be included in the Roadmap, and in that context, the aim is to deepen mutual understanding through such opportunities, and to actively coordinate mutual priorities and points of contention that are not mutually noticed. Today, I would like to hear a brief report from each ministry, focusing on what they are discussing. I hope I will be able to study well.
I would like to thank you all for your continued support today.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Next, I would like to make a brief speech.
Thank you very much in such a hot weather. Today, as Mr. Murakami said, we will have presentations from two experts and from each department that we would like you to work with. My most important role is Time Key Pink, so I would like you to make your presentation as concise as possible and your questions as concise as possible. Today, we are planning to stay for a long time until twelve thirty, but some of us are giving up because we may not be able to settle down, so I would like you to keep the possibility of an extension in mind. If you are unable to make it, it is natural for you to leave at twelve thirty. Thank you very much.
Finally, I would like to work with experts and officials from each ministry to create a good roadmap that can truly serve as a Japanese control tower or lighthouse. As an opportunity, I would like to have proper discussions at the Study Group or the mobility Working Group that follows it. I would like to thank you for your support, which is more important, and I would like to take a few minutes to say hello.
First of all, Dr. Nakamura, Specially Appointed Professor of the University of Tokyo, would like to make a presentation.
Nakamura-sama: . Thank you for your introduction. I am Nakamura from the University of Tokyo.
Once again, thank you for inviting me today. I have quite a few at hand, but the presentation will be 15 minutes straight, and I will pick up from them and make it.
Please look at the self-introduction later.
This is the third phase of SIP, and I am helping under Dr. Ishida.
When I talk about urban transportation, there are some slides that I use as a starting point in lectures for the general public. For example, this is Dallas a decade ago, and all of its light blue, purple, and green are parking lots. One of my questions is whether it is okay to make it like this.
This is the part of Japan National Route 16 that is under the direct control of Isogo Ward, Yokohama-shi. Due to various circumstances, I do not blame anyone, but in reality, there are few places that have sidewalks in the first place, and even if there are, there are still many places that are extremely strict.
Similarly, I have been in Yokohama for a long time, so I have a lot of data on Yokohama. For example, if you take the average number of trips in Yokohama by age group and sex, and compare whether or not there is a car available for each person, on average, people with available cars go out more often. If you don't have a car, you go out less often. This is because if you give up your car somewhere, you will go out less often, especially for women over 75 years old, but such data can be collected immediately.
In this context, what is the purpose? In particular, recently, there has been a lot of discussion about leaving the railway. We are doing it with the intention of leaving area and automated driving as a means. What lies beyond that is to be able to go out, to be able to spend time in good health, and to make the city lively. We are always discussing that each of us can enjoy happiness subjectively.
In traffic planning, we talk about economics and many other things, and we do a lot of research on traffic demands. Basically, we call it derived demand or primary demand, and we go out and move because we have some activity. For example, we like the train or the scenery where it is moving, and moving itself is the purpose of this derived demand. But there are various contents of this derived demand, and there are those with a strong sense of duty and those that are not very obligatory. In addition, there are jobs that we go to very reluctantly and jobs that we expect to enjoy very much, as is the case today, and when we divide them like this, where should we cheer? What we should cheer for is this area, including walks and trips. In the future, whether in public transportation or other mobility opportunities, of course, there are many jobs that we have to put up with, but I think it is this green area that we should cheer for more.
In that context, there is also the construction of a smart mobility platform, but I have a little thought about this word, and I don't remember using the word mobility necessarily in the sense of mobile when I was young. In reality, for example, if we say mobile, mobility management will be interpreted as the management of mobile, which is a bit of a problem. What if mobility management is to review the way people think and act about mobility? Regarding MaaS, if we translate mobility to mobile, it will be a mobile as a service, which is also a bit inconvenient.
So, on the other hand, if you bundle and connect various services and provide them like one mobile object, then the definition of mobile object or ease of movement is smart cities. Now, I belong to the Smart City Design Research Society Collaboration Course, and smart cities's working people education and others are doing it, and I am learning it every day. There is a lot of history, and various teachers are saying it, and I have three left, and one of them is naturally "smart", but when I divide them, one of them is said to be smart.
Also, the way of doing things is smart. This will be digital, computer, or artificial intelligence, but I also like the idea that the framework of the idea is smart, connecting this story with this story, understanding beyond this, and smart here. If you think about it in a cross-sectional, interdisciplinary, and diverse perspective, the term Smart mobility can also be used to refer to the idea of connecting various aspects of environmentally friendly, state-of-the-art technology, and information services for that purpose.
While the social Issue is changing and technology is advancing, one of them is sharing, on-demand, MaaS, automated driving, drones, etc., and the other is data science in the realization process. On the right side, I don't have any time today, so I won't talk about it, but since there is data, when we look at ChatGPT and Stable Diffusion, they may create various ideas, but they need human beings to compare and discuss them, and in that sense, they support Visionig. And, for necessary forecasts, predictions will be made more and more. What we will use it for is, when we have to select several policy options, we will evaluate them in advance, or we will try them on a trial basis, or we will try them on agile, and when we make a little progress, we will look back on them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to look back on them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to look back on them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to look back on them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to look back on them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able to use them with various data that we have never seen before, and we will be able
By the way, regarding sharing, in Paris, I like the fact that we switch the roadway part of the road and keep the sidewalk. However, if you look at some cases, what do you think about cases where the behavior changes from the use of public transportation? Or, what do you think about the cost when the cost increases due to repairs and neglect? And what do you think about the impact when road congestion and accidents increase due to poor tuning? This is all because this is a new business and startup, so do it there, do your best, I think it should not happen.
As for automated driving, I am very embarrassed here, but in my case, especially commercial vehicles and small cars run automatically. The smallest one runs until the suitcase moves automatically, but technology is advanced in such things. I have been to Sakaimachi several times, and I think it is very wonderful. However, I think that there is a little debate about the fact that the average number of passengers is about one at the moment. However, I do not think that it is correct to evaluate or decide everything at this point, so what will we do with the town by taking advantage of this? Although the back is different, there are several route buses left, and it is difficult to make adjustments. Everyone is favorable, but it is taking time to make adjustments. Various facilities are being built all at once, but what will the town do with them? Issue after that still remains. When I think about this, there are still many opportunities ahead. There is no doubt that this bus triggered the opportunity, but my understanding is that it does not mean that we have reached the goal at all because we have run now.
With regard to MaaS, I would like to thank you for all your help. In the blue square on the right, I write that it saves time and solves Issue problems. But when I actually look at it, I think I have to go further into area Issue, I want to reduce the egos of business operators, Japanese is difficult, but I don't think it is too obvious that people with disabilities and people with difficulty in moving are being put on the back burner. I think I can make a lot of ex-post evaluation on the Yamanote line this morning, but I am worried that information will not be available at all in emergencies. In various parts of the country, if experiments go well, it is not good to be satisfied with them and launch them, and Japanese transportation services are provided by private sector companies in various forms. There are many good points about this, and there are many people who have been strengthened through their history, but I seem to know which situations will be played out competitively and which parts should not be played out competitively. I sometimes wonder about this.
In addition, while studying MaaS, I feel that it is still necessary to sort out where originality is produced, where it is combined, and what it is for, including specific standards for vehicles, standards for stations, and standards for bus stops.
The re-design of area transportation happened to be the chairman of the area Transportation Subcommittee of the Transportation Policy Council from 2019 to the spring of last year, so I studied a lot. My understanding is quite good because the country says so, but there are various activities in area, and there is transportation to support them. Some part of it is carried by what is called public transportation, and in the current way of saying the country, it is a leaf, a branch, and a trunk, and in the trunk part, there are railways and buses.
First of all, although there are things that are said to be taken for granted around here, what should we do to make it concrete to work together? Now, it is being connected to quite specific measures. However, this cannot be done only here. Where and how should we go about making it really connected to the various Issue in area? The general outline is fairly complete. But the detailed explanation is, for example, what can be done by the transportation side to make high school students more energetic and cheerful? Is it stations, train schedules, and fares? What should be done about fares? It will become quite specific. But I think we need to go that far. Re-design was, in my initial understanding, various things to rebuild this part concretely.
Also, when I say public-private cooperation, the tone of the government differs greatly depending on the basic local government, prefecture, and country. There are various policy fields, and next to them, of course, there is the field of transportation. There are transportation by transport administration, transportation by traffic management, and transportation by road management. Today, there are various ministries and agencies, and it is natural to connect them properly, but I must say it again.
In addition to transportation companies, there are vendors next to us, and there are many companies in private sector in related fields. There are also residents. I think we are in this area, but I think there are many Issue in terms of what we are doing together, what we will do, and where we will start.
As for public transportation, I always use this word, and I am only looking at it from the people's perspective, but first of all, they can choose how to move. And then, they do not think it is inconvenient to move. These are the two above. And, although I will skip the explanation, there are places where I do not think it is good to have all of them on-demand in front of my house, so stations and bus stops will always remain. I can walk there. And whether it is five buses a day or 20 buses a day, whether it is raining or delayed, I will bring them to a place where they can be trusted. And waiting and moving themselves should not be painful. I am telling planners in particular that it is important to take turns in policy making with this in mind.
It is OK to fight with public transportation by private car instead of fighting between bus companies, but I think that now, depending on the area, it will be seen as a way to attract people who do not go out, including those who do not go out by private car.
In addition, I often discuss the change of transportation methods. In my case, I am technically called the middle choice group, and there are various definitions. To give an easy-to-understand example, let's look at the ratio of how many times a person drives a private car out of about 1,000 trips a year. At that time, there are various people. Some people drive a lot of public transportation and drive only during the Bon Festival and New Year holidays, and some people drive almost all the time and sometimes drive public transportation. As for what I think about policy, I often say that there is one thing to reduce the frequency of car use per year for these people in the choice group.
On the other hand, in some cases, it is inevitable to go out by car, so it does not matter. However, there is also an idea to create more and more fun things and increase this. I will not discuss whether it is good or bad today, but I think that it is necessary to discuss which one is being targeted or how to target which one.
From the perspective of people who want to use it, are there proper specifications and are they communicated properly? Are there various forms of cooperation, including monetization, in order to create it, and are they connected properly for people who want to use it? Is information reaching people in need? For example, I actually saw this in my work a long time ago, but even if I put a sign saying let's change from a car in a bus, there is no way to do it because I am on a bus, so if I were to say let's refrain from using a car, I would have to tell the users of the car, but surprisingly I have not been able to do so.
I think that there is a lot of discussion on the supply side, so I will omit it today. When money is transferred, it is easy to understand if it is called a subsidy, but if the area changes due to it, can't we put forward a view that it is an investment by area?
Also, in Curitiba, a town in Brazil that I love, the roles of the public and private sectors in planning, management, and operations will be gradually divided, and the administration will be responsible for the most basic planning. I believe that such discussions will advance in the digital age.
For the future, I would like to move on to the last part. We need to re-set targets and evolve various experiences. Although I skipped it today, we need to define the scope of public transportation in a different dimension from transportation businesses, including the share cycle. We need to create mobility. In this context, I think we need to discuss value creation, new technologies, and how to manage area in a cyclic manner in cities. First of all, we need various values, not to mention safety. Then, as I said at the beginning, we need to do validation Visioning properly. We need to have more and more data and use it. I don't care about quarters, but I think we need a mechanism to monitor based on it.
That's all. Thank you very much.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.
Well, I'd like to have a discussion. Anyone is fine. How about it? Here you go, Mr. Hidaka.
Hidaka: As for the new mobility in MaaS Tech Japan.
Mr. Nakamura, thank you for your talk.
How do you view the mobility that I mentioned earlier? It is not a vehicle. You mentioned that sharing is convenient, but it may reduce the amount of public transportation, and there may be negative social aspects to maintaining it. I believe that each mobility has various properties, such as being fast, being able to ride a lot, being cheap and expensive, and being flexible. How should you define the mobility when you expand them to the outside?
As I am originally from the railway industry, I believe that this kind of thing will happen to the railway industry. However, I think that it is necessary to think about various things, such as what aspects the taxi industry has, whether the number of drivers will increase or decrease in the future, and how much potential there is for ordinary drivers in terms of self-help and mutual assistance. If you have any thoughts on how to collect and define such digital data in the future, and how to make decisions based on it, how to evaluate the indicators in mobility, whether there is such a scheme, or whether it will have to be created in the future?
For example, it seems that accident rates per kilometer have been calculated, but it is quite difficult to calculate through all mobility. Then, when determining which mobility to implementation in which area and how to do so, considerable expertise is required, and a panoramic perspective is also required. Although it is quite difficult, when I think that this roadmap will be a challenge, if there are any suggestions on how to proceed, etc., it may be a discussion of architecture, so it may be the domain of Mr. Izumi or Mr. Saito, but I would like to discuss this topic, so I would like to hear your opinions.
Nakamura-sama: .
Regarding the points you pointed out, I am reflecting on the need to make easy-to-understand slide materials, but I would like to say a few things.
One is that the definition of words and the definition of laws are very complicated in the world. There is a person from the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, so if I make a mistake, I would like you to tell me right away. For example, when we say taxi as a type of vehicle, we say no more than 10 people. And what kind of service we provide is called riding. Therefore, the Japanese word "ride-sharing taxi" is difficult to explain to foreigners, but if a taxi company operates a ride-sharing license in a vehicle the size of a taxi, it is called a ride-sharing taxi. Even if there is a bus stop and a schedule, it is called a ride-sharing taxi. We first check the classification there, and of course, we may review it. This is one.
On top of that, the on-demand service that I am referring to now, in particular, began with nineteen seventy fees, and there have been several waves of research since then. It was around the time I was in Yokohama City, and there was a peak in 1995 and 2006. At that time, there were various forms of demand, and the ultimate demand was to sort out between taxis and buses.
We can sort out the services on the road where people are picked up from around there little by little, but on the other hand, as Mr. Hidaka said, what indicators are good when comparing them side by side? I think what you said in the example is safety, but in general, there are convenience and reliability, but it is quite complicated to define each one. However, I think the era when there was no data or business operators did not provide data is passing, so we can do it side by side.
For example, even if you take one of the punctuality, you can come according to the timetable. I will not say it because it is a flowing example, but there is a place where one bus company has a very high punctuality and another has a low punctuality. When we investigate what the problem is with the low punctuality, the original schedule setting is very tight, and it is difficult to keep the schedule unless you run very hard. As a bus, it is actually fast. However, if you look at the schedule of the stop on the way, it is off. What do you think about this?
In other words, if you make a timetable in a relaxed manner, if you adjust the time on the way, the punctuality will increase. If you go that far, you can see how the timetable is made, how the operation is done, whether the road condition or other conditions are the hindrance on the way, and whether it is the road structure or traffic management. This is the stage where you can see the data now.
In this way, the logic of punctuality and future reliability becomes quite visible, unlike the era when researchers measured it by themselves. As the amount increases, statistical processing will be possible. I think it is necessary to crush each one like this.
On top of that, there are services that are operated by borrowing tools themselves, as in the right end of this figure, and services that are operated by someone who operates the service, and services that are operated by mechanization. Here is one story.
In urban areas in particular, road space is limited, so we have to make certain decisions and prioritize them. It can be changed depending on the location and time of day. It is quite difficult to manage this, but I think Japan is a country that has done various things in the past. Therefore, if we regenerate our knowledge, there is little data on how to use the road part and the place where we approach, including the curve part of the road and sidewalk. Moreover, when we manage it, we have to change the signs, and there are other things to do. Who is responsible and who is responsible. This can change depending on the current method of operation using past data and signage and the subsequent evaluation. Then, I think there is another axis of how to proceed in a limited road space. I just heard Mr. Hidaka's comment and felt that we have to study this area.
That's all.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.
Mr. Saito, please.
SAITO Member: Digital Lifeline National Comprehensive Development Plan, we are talking about using automated driving cars to respond to people's flow, distribution crises, and man-made disasters. At that time, if we imagine what the world of distribution and people's flow will be like when automated driving cars appear, there is one story in which infrastructure such as railways like the Yamanote Line will become a utility. However, it is a story in which not one company but multiple operators exist there and provide various services with assets, so-called transportation services.
However, in reality, for example, when we try to take measures against people's flow, distribution, and man-made disasters, there are users and demand sides, and unless we properly grasp the needs of them, it is impossible to decide how to arrange the various utility infrastructures that we saw earlier. Therefore, the part of competition on the residents' side that I mentioned earlier is that we have to grasp the needs of users and demands, and how to operate utilities in response to them.
While the government is planning such things, it is also planning for the future. You mentioned that the foundation of the operation itself is a public institution, but it will be entrusted to such a place first, and finally to private sector. Such a story is somewhat like a normal utility infrastructure.
However, when it comes to private cars, the world has changed one more thing. There are so-called entertainment stories and the world of my hobbies. If you try to add such things, it will be quite complicated. If you really want to do it, you have to figure out where you want to go, and I feel that it does not end with just profiling your life. In I talked earlier, there is a question mark on how far you should go to catch personal data. In addition to public transportation, there are private cars and there are places you want to go. In normal life, so-called normal commuting, business, in education, in medical care, and so on, if you profile them, I feel that it will be decided to create a utility infrastructure as public transportation. However, I think the world of hobbies is quite difficult. I will ask you how you think about this.
Nakamura-sama: .
Basically, I think it is good to have freedom of movement, so I don't mean to say that I want to go by my own car is no good anywhere, and I will use it myself. However, in a place where there is a constraint in time and space, if something is added to it, it can cause external diseconomy, so in such a case, it is often said that pricing is used in theory. For example, in Singapore or London, it is OK to pay a corresponding burden to a crowded place, and if you still want to go by car, it is said that you can go by car. Or, ahead, in some cities such as France, the government controls the usage fee of the parking lot in the central urban area, and although it is cheap for a short time, it does not say that you should not use it for commuting, but it sends a message that you should pay if you use it for commuting. It means that pricing is put into it.
If we still can't make it in time, the number of scenes may be limited, but since there are no cars in Oze, various things can happen, and in such a case, control under agreement will be absolutely necessary.
Therefore, it is impossible to have to control all the personal demand for cars, and that is unrealistic. However, the general idea is that it is necessary to adjust the price while incorporating physical control so that the priority moves depending on the situation.
SAITO Member: The point is, usually, when we profile, we can talk about how to move in the living space in various ways such as optimization, but when we leave individual freedom to others, we can use so-called demand side management, which is a method of controlling demand in the world of electric power, and we can manage it somehow.
Nakamura-sama: , or rather, I think we need to do that.
SAITO Member: I understand. Thank you.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, ?
With regard to Mr. Hidaka's definition, I don't think there is anyone who can explain the difference between high-standard highways, high-standard roads, A' roads, A roads, and B roads, or area high-standard roads.
In the example I know, the Land Readjustment Law and the City development Readjustment Law, which are extremely important methods for town development, are added by smart people in public office according to their needs at the time. As in the case of automobiles, it is difficult to understand when you look at it later, and it is not transparent. In particular, as in the case of land readjustment, ordinary landowners have a sense of being deceived. I think we need to think about sorting out such things a little more properly.
It may be to reorganize what has been accumulated as a result, but I think it is important to jump a little further and think about it without being too bound by the current definition. I thought that digital and architecture would not be effective in the true sense unless we went that far. That's one thing.
In addition, in terms of sharing cars, we are talking about sharing space in a car by ride-sharing, but when we think more about mobility, I think it is important to consider how to share public space, especially roads and towns.
To put it bluntly, I believe that there are only two types of roads, and one is a road where automobiles do not have to be restrained, and the ultimate form is a circuit. I believe that there are only two types of roads in ordinary cities, and I think it is very important to build them in cooperation with various people. Can such an idea be included in the sharing system?
Nakamura-sama: .
As we make this material, since it is a sharing service, what you pointed out is not directly included, but what we will do with the station, and examples will be given. What you just said is that it is rather a side of the road where cars refrain, and in addition to how to refrain, it is good if it is only cars and pedestrians, but bicycles, electric kick scooter, and various things will come out in the future, and on the other hand, when it comes to the city and road space, on one side, it is street trees and planting, on the other side, it is space for various things to be buried underground, and there will be several things, but I think it is a big Issue to make the way of sharing space for things related to travel on the road smarter.
In some cases, of course, there are various things that appear depending on the time zone, but how to use them, how to use them in a meaningful way for the users who should be the most prioritized in that time zone and for the roadside, how can they be done technically, and how to think about the base concept in the first place must be made separately.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, That's right. When I said automobiles earlier, it's beautiful that not only automobiles but also people in the space respect each other and respect each other to some extent, but I don't know what to do.
Thank you very much.
What do you think?
Akimoto Acting Member: My name is Akimoto from the Japanese Drone Operation Management Consortium.
Teacher, thank you for your lecture. I learned about it, including the concept of smart mobility.
I believe that it will be necessary in the future to use various mobility in various daily lives, to select a mobility according to each user, and to optimize such a mobility using data in the future. Looking at the reality, I have said various things to an automobile company in the past. We call it "Fun to Drive," but when I drive, it becomes a parking lot, and it does not move. Such places are becoming more and more crowded. For example, from the perspective of saving energy and not emitting CO2 with Smart mobility, I would like to know how to solve the situation where there is a traffic jam and a parking lot when people are driving or moving around during the year-end and New Year holidays and holidays. I think it will be a fragment, but I would like to know what kind of solutions there are.
That's all.
Nakamura-sama: .
Basically, the theory is that if demand and supply can be balanced, it will be crowded. Demand means that everyone wants to go here and run here. Supply means how much processing capacity the road has. Even if the processing capacity is increased, the traffic congestion will be significantly reduced, and even if the demand is reduced, the traffic congestion will be reduced. If you look at this processing capacity in detail, it is difficult. For example, the reason why the road does not move at all was that there were several right turns to souvenir shops in Odawara and Atami for a while, and if you remove them, they flow. I thought that there were a huge number of cars in the traffic jam, and there was nothing I could do about it, but in reality, being in a certain time section and flowing on the time axis are different concepts, and it is okay to flow. Then, there are things that change by eliminating bottlenecks.
As for what you just said, I believe that there are both individual problems. We can still devise ways to operate the road, and it is possible that it will be greatly eased by improving the intersection or building a few lanes.
Another is that JH and others have already issued congestion forecasts to some extent, but if we use more and more data and let artificial intelligence calculate it, the accuracy will improve. In this time zone, unless it rains suddenly, it will be this crowded, and it will take you this long. Even so, it is necessary for you to decide whether to go there or not. Next time, souvenir shops and others will need to move their actions by preparing a set menu of rice at a small discount if they can earn money by leveling the overall demand and peak. I think we can do more than that.
In any case, it is an era in which various data can be obtained, and dreams will expand. However, in reality, it is difficult to obtain such data due to a number of restrictions, but I believe that the state of many roads in Japan is still possible to adjust demand and devise supply capacity.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.
Kawabata Member: I learned a lot from your careful presentation. Thank you very much.
Considering the current situation is very well organized, and by creating new peripheral services for the future, as Dr. Ishida mentioned earlier, we can increase the density of human behavior change. If we don't do it now, there may be a reason not to do it, and if we do so, we will create peripheral services that are lacking. For example, when I think I should stop going there at that time, but it is inconvenient to do so, I think I will choose an alternative service if there is one.
Therefore, in addition to what you have organized this time, I thought that we would be able to do things that are not currently possible if we could create new peripheral services that would increase the ability or density of not only humans but also various transportation systems.
In addition to traffic conditions and maintenance in the case of machines, I also think that in the case of humans, there are things such as fatigue and working styles, so I thought that if we could think about future actions and what we want to do from the information we have now, we could change the future.
It is fluffy, but rather than just analyzing the current situation, I think it is important to consider the services that are lacking, the services that should be there, and peripheral services.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, In relation to the current situation, I think Japan has improved considerably. One is the experience of pricing at the time of the Tokyo Olympics. What is under construction right now is the Daishi Bridge of the Metropolitan Expressway, and the reconstruction of the Haneda Line. The bridge construction of the Matsubara Line at Osaka Station will be stopped for about three years. The Metropolitan Expressway will not be stopped for that long. However, the traffic impact of that will be not as bad as expected because both Metropolitan Expressway and Mr. Sakataka made a lot of appeals in advance.
But unfortunately, there are only Tokyo, Osaka, and a few Fukuokas, and I think the area area has its own problems. There is not much wisdom about how to spread it to such places, including costs and human resources, so I think it will be important from now on.
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Mr. Koda, please.
Koda Member: Thank you, . I'm sorry to bother you online today. I'm Koda from AsMama Co., Ltd.
Thank you for sharing your very valuable materials. I saw it with great interest.
From my side, it is an opinion or a question. It is a half-and-half question. For example, if there is an appropriate balance and free choice between trains and airplanes, private cars and the public, it will lead to a prosperous life from the perspective of the residents. This is a co-creation of those who create together.
On the other hand, in a declining population, for example, there is competition between private business, and competition between private sector and the public. From the viewpoint of the residents, there are some places where the price is appropriate because there is competition. When considering private sector and the public, I think there are two sides, that is, new private sector cannot be entered due to vested interests, or that the public cannot be maintained because the new private sector works hard. I would like to ask what you think about this.
Nakamura-sama: .
The first thing I faced when I was a chairman in 2019 was the problem of Okayama city, and I learned a lot from it. When multiple private business compete for service, it is when the residents can choose the service. For example, if it is a competition between one plastic bottle of tea and another plastic bottle of tea, which is more delicious, you can always choose.
However, in many cases, public transportation in area is a place where you can't choose but you are competing. Or it is quite difficult to choose. Moreover, as you said, the population is not increasing and the economy is not growing upward to the right, and the total demand volume tends to shrink. To compete against it is to fight to cut off the reduced pie somehow. In such a situation, whether the total population decrease can be suppressed first. On top of that, increasing the travel pie must be done together. When it has become stable to some extent, and when other conditions are met, you compete in an environment where you can compete.
I think taxis have the same intention, but I'm quite timid, so I can't choose a taxi because I'm waiting at the station. I asked the taxi association and they said I could choose one, but even if I wanted to take a taxi three cars later, I couldn't get on. If you want to do it, it's more logical to make it possible to choose like the current app, and it's strange to make it impossible to choose. On the other hand, if you want to do it in a way that you don't have to choose, it's better to do it together.
Although it will be detailed, I think that we are in a situation where we need to organize it by scene. I think that in many cases where the population is declining, it is currently possible to promote co-creation in the direction of increasing the total number of services while welcoming new services.
Have you answered?
Koda Member: Thank you, .
I also have great expectations that new private sector will come out more and more, and that the lives of people who are vulnerable to traffic in a declining population will be supported. Thank you very much for your valuable opinions.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , thank you very much.
Since it is time, I would like to stop the presentation from Mr. Nakamura, so next, Mr. Yamamoto of ITS Japan, please.
Mr. Yamamoto: If we go to the ITS Japan, I'm Yamamoto.
I would like to talk about the visualization of road usage, which is a specific topic, but this topic will come up in various places, including today. As I spoke in the second session, I would like to introduce the details of this topic to everyone and use it as a topic for discussion.
Before I go into the content, let me introduce ITS Japan a little.
ITS Japan is an organization that works with the guidance of companies and university teachers in private sector. We will gather at the company with the logo on the upper right.
Another topic is that the chairman changed last month. He is currently a director of Toyota, and I think he has gained an advantage in developing various measures.
This is our position. On the left, as a liaison in private sector, we are engaged in various industry-government-university cooperation activities under the guidance of academic teachers, the government, and people in ministries and agencies.
Internationally, there are three regions: North America, Europe, and Asia. As a member of Asia and a leader in Asia, we hold the World Conference on ITS every year.
It is a configuration in ITS Japan.
The yellow part is our team. Each team is considering themes such as safety, security, comfortable transportation, environmental load reduction, and disaster resilience. As Dr. Nakamura mentioned earlier, we are also looking at how to formulate various measures to increase the number of valuable leads.
Although I have made a lengthy introduction, I would like to talk about the visualization of road usage throughout Japan.
With regard to the recognition of Issue, as you have mentioned in various ways, mobility is diversifying, and transportation and ITS infrastructure must change accordingly. However, if we do not know when, where, how much, and how much mobility and transportation infrastructure are used, we cannot take effective and efficient measures or review them. I think that validation and Visioning, which Dr. Nakamura is referring to, cannot be done.
Second, as Director General Murakami mentioned either last time or two years ago, various types of movement information are currently being used by everyone, but if each person accesses various types of information under each type of movement information, it will be very chaotic. Society as a whole will be wasteful. Therefore, as shown in the red frame below, it is necessary to thoroughly grasp the information used by everyone throughout Japan and to develop a mechanism to share it as common data.
In addition, there will be various initiatives, but I believe it is necessary to actually plan and implement them, and to create opportunities to share the common Issue that has emerged.
This was originally provided by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, and data connections infrastructure is included in the National Comprehensive Plan for Digital Lifeline Development. On the lower left, ITS Japan is also considering various aspects of this, and I believe that future transportation infrastructure in line with the digital age is necessary.
This is a ponte picture of our thoughts. On the left side, the environment that supports the digital age, in a word, it is now. In any case, in-vehicle devices and sensors have already been installed, networks have been developed, and data stored in the cloud can be processed in many ways. Now that we have this environment, there is no way not to use it.
With regard to the right side, we need to firmly grasp how people are moving and how they are used. I believe it will be very important from now on what kind of roads there are, what kind of travel space there is, and how to improve it.
The following is a simple ponte picture of what kind of means of movement and movement space are used when people / things move.
As I mentioned in the opening theme, I think that what is important here is road usage information. As you can see from the red line, as Mr. Ishida mentioned earlier, roads are mixed. Various people use them, so we must manage them well. In addition, I believe that the total length of Japanese roads is more than 1.2 million kilometers, which is about that. Air routes, railways, and sea routes are about tens of thousands of kilometers. There are many people who move and use them, so the burden of maintaining roads is extremely aging and increasing. In addition, infrastructure utilization of RSU for automated driving is also increasing, so I think that we must develop usage information from the perspective of roads and infrastructure.
In terms of measures, as Dr. Saito mentioned earlier, how is road usage information related to the movement of people and mobility? This is also so-called demand information, as Mr. Murakami mentioned about two times. I believe that we cannot do anything without it. The National Comprehensive Plan for Digital Infrastructure Development states from point to line, from demonstration to implementation, where and in what order we will start, and the Road Subcommittee of the Council for Infrastructure Development issued a summary in March, in which the need for data is also factored in.
Various organizations and companies are also conducting various studies. In the case of ITS Japan, a carbon-neutral team promotes behavioral change in transportation, diversification of transportation methods, and a disaster resilience team advances probe information at the time of and before a disaster.
In recent years, as has already been reported in the media, traffic has become difficult due to flooded roads and snowfall, and there have been victims. I believe that there is no time to wait to quickly understand where we need to take action.
We have picked up a few examples of measures and services for the utilization of road use information.
The first thing I can think of is traffic safety. Using ETC2.0, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism is taking measures to ensure the safety of community roads. I also think we can use disaster response, environmental and efficient MaaS.
In addition, what I would like to emphasize is the judgment of new construction of roads and bridges and road repair points, which can also be obtained from probe information.
Other than that, there is evidence of various regulation mitigation. Various laws are uniformly included throughout the country, but there are many laws that say that if you want to run a automated driving in a really rural area, you don't need to run here. If there is solid evidence, various regulation mitigation can be done partially, not uniformly.
The gasoline tax will decrease in the future, but what will be the alternative source of revenue? This is a touchy topic, so I won't say any more, but I think we definitely need road usage information.
Now, in terms of how to proceed with road usage data, in a word, using data plus probe information from the infrastructure on the upper right.
We are thinking of two categories. The first is the development of data that will be the basis for PDCA. The second is the development of real-time data.
Examples of maintenance data include various types of data. Basically, if you have location data, cars, automobiles, senior cars, electric scooters, robots, and pedestrians, which I think must include pedestrians, as long as you have location data on how these people are moving, you can use it quite a lot. Plus, if you have InCar data in red, it will be very much more valuable. InCar information is vehicle control data, but for example, you can start the engine, blow the accelerator, step on the brake, move the wiper, or cause a side slip like ABS or TRC. You can do quite a lot of things just by having such things.
As you mentioned earlier in personal data, if you make it into statistical summary data, it will be a bit bad if there is only one person running in the countryside, but basically, you can avoid such places.
Then, this is a diagram showing how to position this road use data in a panoramic perspective.
At the bottom, there are information sources and information sources, and there is information that each company has, but here, they are all different. We will set up a common interface in there, create what items will be shared by everyone, and pass it to various platforms and application systems above. We will do API cooperation between platforms, but the information that you will use is arranged in a red frame.
What is important at this time is to firmly organize the information group even in the world of mobility. Professor Koshizuka talked about chaos, but in order not to become chaos, the MaaS of the usage information in the lower left should be done with the MaaS information group. The static and quasi-static parts in the upper left are different. By organizing it in this way, I think it is important to firmly organize the overall picture, although I would not say it is an architecture.
Let me add a little bit. The road usage database in the middle should be developed in a centralized cooperative areas. This is because we can guarantee the positive efficiency and quality that everyone uses, and that everyone can get good data in common if they go here.
So far, I have talked about road usage data. In promoting it, there are various Issue. I would like to organize them a little and discuss them with you. I am sorting out the materials by Mr. Koshizuka, and the blue arrows after this are not the opinions of ITS Japan as a whole, but I am sorting out how to proceed toward discussion and resolution. Since I am from private sector, I am sorting out a little from the perspective of private sector.
First of all, you mentioned a top-down approach or a bottom-up approach. In top-down, mobility working, and Mobility Roadmap, we will decide on a guideline to collect such data and a policy to share the overall picture I mentioned earlier. In accordance with that, I believe we will promote specific projects that are aware of each use cases.
Next, regarding the relationship between infrastructure and utilization, Dr. Koshizuka said that it would be correct to "proceed at the same time." I think so, too. I was involved in that work in private sector for about three years. When creating a platform, you have to create two or three killer services for data utilization services, and you have to use the specific data to create the platform infrastructure. This is always a general idea. So, while doing that, there are other services like this, so I think it is necessary to take a hybrid approach by collecting data on these services.
Next, regarding the division of roles in cooperative areas, who will take the leadership, the government or the industry, will be promoted through co-creation. As I said earlier, it will be the overall policy and the overall architecture, and it is ideal that this will be created by ministries and agencies "Mobility Roadmap" and others, and that private sector will take charge under public support.
We can't avoid talking about the cost. I think the basic policy is to pay the beneficiaries and use the data for a fee. But I think there is a possibility of partial deduction. The road usage data is the data of the road. The road is built with public help now. According to my check, we use 6.8 trillion yen a year. Even if we use 0.% of this, money will come out properly. I think public help can also be used for efficient and effective initial investment.
I also picked up Issue, who says that if you do that, you will be asked to explain. If you use the example of utilization I mentioned earlier, I think you can be sufficiently accountable.
Dr. Nakamura mentioned that it is difficult for people in private sector to open their own data. Recently, that has not been the case. First of all, I would like you to look at the bottom part. There is almost a consensus in private sector that our company's data will be used for the public. I think the problem is the business model at the top. We will create a business model here, and use it for the public. We will put cost principles and cost effects into it. I am an OEM graduate, and when a disaster occurs, we will issue a road map for free. However, from the previous stage, it is a little bit of a debate.
What I would like you to understand is that private sector spends a lot of money and effort to collect data. For example, as I often explain, it is like crude oil. Crude oil is oil. We go to various places such as the Middle East, tell them where they have oil, and coordinate with their governments. They bring mining equipment to take oil. Then they bring tankers. They stock up. If we translate it into data, the company creates a customer market, receives data there, attaches in-vehicle equipment, attaches sensors, and collects data. We spend communication expenses to bring it to our cloud or various cloud service. cloud service is not free. It is very expensive. So, we have data, but I, as a person in private sector, would like you to think about it.
There was also the question of whether this data is part of the corporate value. This is an extremely important resource for monetization gained through internal process improvement and the sophistication of each company's services.
As I mentioned earlier, it is difficult to make profits only in the service layer, so a business cannot be established only with a business model and data. The number of companies that I used to work for and that monetize data may increase in the future, but it is difficult to pay only with that.
As for the data incentive at the end, the travel information that people really use is like the copyright of music. If you think about the fact that if someone sings at karaoke, he or she will get in, and even if the unit price is very low, he or she will get in the company just by using it, I think you can create a business model.
That's all. Thank you very much for your attention.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much for your positive comments.
Nice to meet you all. How do you like it?
Go ahead.
. In any case, unless we start the game with a little bit of new demand, whatever we do with existing traffic demand will only conflict with reason. I think that point is already coming into sight, but at the end, we have to share data with each other, but if we start the game in a flat state, private sector does not have the motivation to generate data. I think that what kind of motivation to design is probably the most important point in starting the entire game.
One theory I can say in subsidy for the Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation is that when My Number Card comes out, there is a possibility that area will be able to collect data by itself indirectly, even if it is a mutual DMO or whatever. Therefore, we will create some kind of system for each area in which private sector companies will be responsible for collecting data by themselves. When they ride on the system, they will be asked to make a decision while thinking about how much they can gain or lose by providing their own information. First of all, they will be responsible for collecting data by themselves. If they start the game after having a player who collects data by themselves, everyone will understand the logic, but under the current standoff, there will be no one who has the motivation to throw a die to get data out first. I hope that good wisdom will come out in this way.
That's all.
Mr. Yamamoto: If we go to the I think you are right.
Who will be in charge of the scope of the information you are looking at this time, and in what kind of organization and how will it be operated? For example, there are cases where JARTIC and VICS receive data from OEMs for a fee and use it for traffic congestion information. Based on this, we will create a organization body to create something like this.
Also, in terms of money, if you spend 6.8 trillion yen, you may have to pay a little more than the initial running cost. It is not called.
The problem is that everyone says it is really free. At first, it will be charged like this. Such a consensus should be made, and the difficult situation in private sector mentioned earlier should be understood. Also, a business model that will gradually come in if many people use it will be thoroughly considered in "Mobility Roadmap." If there is such a place, I think it can be done.
So, first of all, let's make some kind of organization here in the red frame. In addition to the data, for example, I think there is a successful example called "HELPNET." It is a system to call emergency services in the event of an accident. We launched it in 2005, but at first we were really in the red and couldn't do anything about it. However, a consensus has been gradually reached, and now we are managing to pay. I think we will gradually create such a system in the data world.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.
Mr. Okamoto of Tokyo Electric Power Company, may I have your say?
Okamoto Member: My name is Tokyo Electric Power Company Power Grid.
Thank you, Mr. Yamamoto.
It was a very thought-provoking story, and I myself wanted to make a comment and ask a question. Mr. Murakami told me a similar story earlier. If I were to make a comment, I would say that I have a lot in common with Mr. Murakami, even though I myself am in a company that deals with electric networks, so I was listening to it while thinking of myself.
Mr. Yamamoto mentioned that we are a little touchy, but we are very close to the problem of the possibility that our infrastructure will become stranded cost as soon as the situation changes, and that we will need a new billing model in the end. Basically, we are all the same in that we need to collect data and make use of it.
Then, the most important thing is how to collect data, and I thought I would talk about how it would be a little difficult to collect data for free, but I think it is true because of what you just said.
To give a similar example, we have established a company called Grid Data Bank Lab together with other companies. Power smart meters are digitalization of how electricity networks are used and how electricity is used by customers. They are processed as statistical data by the Grid Data Bank Lab. Of course, they are not so expensive, but they are provided for a certain amount for a fee. In April, we became a stock company and started to provide them. As a private sector, we cannot provide them for free. So, we receive them for a low price, and killer contents will be added to them. As they become more and more available, we will be able to provide them for a lower unit price. That is what I was asking. I thought it was a common Issue.
In addition, when we asked for the data of the competition side, we thought that it would not work if we did not put the consideration for providing some data into the system as a clear incentive, so I asked about it, so I learned a lot from it.
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Mr. Yamamoto: If we go to the .
In line with the comments made by Mr. Murakami and Mr. Okamoto earlier, I would like to make a few comments. Data collection does not work even if we create a organization. Three or four years ago, a certain convenience store chain said that we should create a data bank by collecting a lot of data, but it has not moved. In the end, what kind of future market will there be and how much of it will be available? This is the same as investment. When a new business is launched, there is such a market and such a world, so everyone wants to ride it. So, we should organize these things carefully, and if there is a place where such data is necessary for that, corporate motivation will be used in this way to some extent in the future.
Another big thing is that we should not create such complicated data on the use of this road. First of all, it is okay to create position data and support supply and demand. It is very important how much data should be accumulated by time zone, but if we accumulate a lot of data, it will cost more, so if we insert images, we will die even more.
However, if it is only location data, there is no problem. If it is only location data, it is created once and maintained one after another, and the users just use the same data one by one, so it will increase rapidly. So, when I talk about this business model, I think that the private sector side should first put it in here. If we consider a model in which it is used and then it comes in, I think it is natural for the people of private sector to get on board.
: Just a few words.
Whether to collect or to keep them distributed so that only the necessary data can be called up when necessary, I think there are some loose parts in the multiplication of this point, so I added a few words.
Mr. Yamamoto: If we go to the As for the minimum necessary part, I think my opinion should be collected. If not, efficiency and quality are not guaranteed.
Now, VICS and JARTIC are talking about traffic congestion information, and in the case of VICS, they are talking about VICS links, DRM links, and links. Even if we just do it here, we will be able to collect it intensively and use it in various places. Therefore, from your answer, I think we should collect it.
Let's collect such policies and architecture in a roadmap. I have to put it here. For the whole country, your business model is a really good story, and we will get a consensus in Mobility Roadmap. I think this is one of the top-down approaches.
: I would like to discuss this very point.
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Okamoto Member: My name is Okamoto. Thank you very much.
As I listened to what you just said, I thought about it further. In the end, the story here is the same for our electric power network. In the end, I thought that these two networks would overlap if EVs were to be used. Even if we were to create each network, I thought again that it would be necessary to connect and collaborate them. I thought that I would like to think about this together.
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Mr. Yamamoto: If we go to the Thank you very much.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.
Member of Hatano: Mr. Yamamoto , thank you for showing us various ways of thinking about data use.
JAMA has supported the idea of promoting data utilization by building a common interface that can be seen now since the second phase of SIP. With regard to the data presented today, we would like to share the Issue of the vehicle side, which is the original source side of the data. If it is only the simple location information that Mr. Yamamoto mentioned earlier, most vehicles already support navigation, so we have acquired the data in-house. However, when it comes to sharing InVehicle and InCar information, it is very important to share how much, how accurate, and at what granularity it will be flowed into the interface.
If we discuss this in order to share the data interface, we need to disclose more than a few internal circumstances and discuss selection. If we do not spend a considerable amount of time and effort here, the interface will not be actually built. So, I would like to have a careful discussion here.
In addition, once the interface is determined, we will discuss how to store data. Recently, in international discussions, there has been considerable debate over the law that EDR, which is the data of in-house calculations when an airbag is deployed, or sensor data, should be stored so that it can be analyzed and analyzed later.
We have not yet developed a system in Japan, but when we compare internationally, such a system will eventually be required. However, we also have to store data in-house through a common interface. To be specific, we have conventionally recorded only the minimum amount of data for quality assurance on the vehicle side, but in order to request various uses from society, we have to store more and more unnecessary data in the storage. In fact, we have to invest in the vehicle side, and by extension, we have to pay the cost to the customer in advance, even though the data is not used.
It is surprisingly possible to share the infrastructure for data utilization by sharing it with everyone at the cost of the beneficiary. However, in some cases, the source of the data is not at the cost of the beneficiary. In some cases, the number of customers who have to store data without using the storage capacity imposed by the rules will increase significantly. In the future, we would like to discuss how to optimize the data by taking into account the fact that we will be considering this. Thank you.
Mr. Yamamoto: If we go to the I am also involved in such work, so I understand well. So, the InCar data in the slide you are looking at is in parentheses. I think it is okay to be in competitive areas. For example, using a place where ABS is applied, TRC is applied, or it is sliding sideways, it is possible for an individual company to say that a certain police headquarters and this intersection are dangerous. However, when they are combined, as you said, it is quite difficult. Where there is such a place, first of all, it should be used as additional information that this kind of thing can happen.
However, I think that the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association can do its best to wiper the flood information with the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association, and I think that we should do it carefully one by one.
Regarding the second point, the cost of storage, if it is a little difficult because of the cost of storage, I think the provider should stop it. That is already impossible. If you accumulate images, you will get a blowout, so it is okay if the provider stops it by saying that it is already impossible. However, from a top-down perspective, it does not take much data to make everyone use the road more efficiently by doing location information together. That is still possible.
That's all.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, ?
Mr. Saito.
SAITO Member: There is talk of MEC in the area of the inside and the edge of the car, but there is also a means of how to solve the problem by how to create such a so-called architecture, so one thing is that it does not necessarily cost only for the car.
In addition, I have been talking about costs, but ultimately, for example, when information on the movement of cars is available, the social cost will decrease. Therefore, there is a discussion about how much the social cost will decrease and how to share the decrease. In order to reduce the social cost, we will create this kind of utility infrastructure. In a sense, common infrastructure is a public organization, but it also has a part to reduce various costs related to operation and maintenance and various costs for individual capital investment. I myself think that there is a model in which investment is made to reduce the total social cost.
In other words, when private sector comes to development, there is a talk that what private sector has invested should be recovered through services. However, in fact, there is a part where the government's investment is reduced, so I myself think that there may be a talk about how to share the investment in the infrastructure of such places while counting on the side of the government.
Basically, this model is about developing a common platform like Google or Amazon in a sense as a country in a utility way. To put it the other way around, it will take a lot of investment until all of them can be expanded and various data can be collected, so I myself think it is natural for the country to secure and invest.
Mr. Yamamoto: If we go to the I think so, too. Now that you are looking at it, I think there are naturally social benefits, and in addition, there will be effects even if the cost of road maintenance is made a little more efficient. Therefore, if we clearly show how much social benefits will be provided in such places, we will be able to create a model to some extent.
Another thing is that it is not so good to spread the road usage data too much. As Hatano-san said, I think it would be good to gradually start from here, where we discuss carefully and where we say let's do this.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, I believe that this is the place where such discussions will be held, but even at that place, it seems that it has been decided who will be able to truly complete the process, but I don't think it has been decided.
For example, in addition to traffic congestion information, many people think that there are many issues such as safety and maintenance, and they want to use such data. In addition to close calls, I heard that road surface properties can be measured by measuring tire pressure, and I think that it is good if it can be used. However, you said that it is a market or investment, and I think that we need to seriously consider the scale and how good it is.
At the same time, as Mr. Saito always says, technology is developing extremely fast, so what we couldn't do today could be done tomorrow. So, we draw a dream from both sides, and it is a somewhat vague dream. If we don't think about who will draw a dream that includes costs, and how the team will do it, it is important, but I feel that we will be limited to this level of discussion. I think that is important, but what do you think?
Mr. Yamamoto: If we go to the I also think so, and I feel that it would be good to throw it into "Mobility Roadmap" and form a team around the third phase of SIP. Mr. Ishida, I would like to thank you for your cooperation.
This is also a simple one word.
If we don't get demand-side data first, I don't think the game will start even if we are told to bring information only from the side that provides vehicle services and operation services. area public transportation is serious, so it is possible to enter from there, but if demand is limited to area, it may be easier to collect necessary data. In addition, Mr. Izumi talked about the stratification of roads earlier, and it may be easier to start in the narrow streets on the side of life. I think it is necessary to bring demand-side data to someone who will collect it and cooperate with us if necessary.
However, even so, from the service side's point of view, if there is demand, it will be said that I want it, so I feel that the reason why it will be shared by everyone will be stuck, so I wonder how to make the first step of this combination easy for everyone. In any case, it is demand-oriented, and I don't know whether it is area or something, but I feel that it is a start to start searching without being greedy. This is a point I would like to discuss by all means.
Mr. Yamamoto: If we go to the area, we can get all the current probe information and mobile phone information regardless of the area, so I think we can talk about what kind of place we should focus on.
As for the actual killer contents on demand, as I have mentioned many times, there is a model in which we collect such data and provide it to everyone because there is such demand that we cannot pass through due to disasters. I think we should actually create two or three services using the demand for low-hanging fruit and talk about obtaining this location information.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Next, Mr. Kimura will talk about the third phase of the SIP. We are currently soliciting applications, and I believe you have heard a lot today. Inspired by the discussions you just had, we still have some time left. If you can work hard, I would like to hear SIP's response. Thank you very much.
From now on, I would like to receive presentations from related ministries and agencies, and I would like to have discussions after all of them are presented together. I would like to ask in the order of the Cabinet Office, the National Police Agency, Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, the Information Economy Division of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, the Automobile Division of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism.
Thank you.
Mr. Kimura, Director of the Office for the Promotion of Science, Technology and Innovation, , I would like to explain about the "Construction of the Smart mobility Platform," which is the third phase of SIP, as mentioned in your presentation.
I have received related explanations from Dr. Ishida, Dr. Koshizuka, and Dr. Nakamura today, so I would like to explain that I am working in this direction.
First of all, on the first page, there are many things that need to be considered toward a new social implementation in mobility. It is written in the blue part. As the mission of the new SIP mobility, which is the construction of the Smart Issue Platform, in order to utilize the various wide-ranging mobility resources and new mobility means described here, we would like to advance efforts to build a platform that realizes safe, environmental, people-friendly, fair, and seamless transportation by comprehensively working on society, communities, and area, not only on technology.
In addition, there is the Smart mobility 2.0, and as you can see on the next page, I believe there has been a term "Smart mobility" in the past, but in contrast, we are focusing on the perspectives of low-speed, short-distance, and small-scale, which are closer to your life, and we are aiming for a new mobility for realizing well-being to realize values closely related to life, such as security, health, and comfort.
We have three sub Issue.
The first Sub Issue is the Redefinition of mobility Services and the Formulation of Strategies for Social implementation, the Sub Issue II is the Research development for the Re-design of Infrastructure to Support mobility Services, and the Sub Issue III is the development of Equipment and Mechanism to Support Experiments, implementation, and Commercialization of Smart mobility Services. As the concept and menu method are schematically described here, I would like to hear proposals from a researcher who will not do only one, but will combine themes from various perspectives and promote them comprehensively. I will also explain about that at the end.
On page 4, I would like to explain a little about the breakdown research theme of Sub Issue I.
This is to create planning guidelines for the re-design of mobility services for the maximum utilization of mobility resources. From the understanding of the actual situation to the utilization of simulations, we will create general mobilization chips (tips) for area, create planning guidelines, and consider a concept that will be an international indicator for re-design.
We are also considering initiatives for logistics MaaS.
And we would like to work on the practice of tactical mobility re-design.
This is technical.
As stated in II-1, Issue is aware of how to make community roads safe and how to deal with Issue, such as the creation of liveliness in urban areas. From (vii) -1, I would like to work on how to make Michi spaces that are closely connected to people's lives safe, including how to use various monitoring and data.
The bottom part is how to reduce risks. At the same time, we are considering a research development for transportation infrastructure technology.
From the perspective of making roads safe for pedestrians, we will examine systems using communication technology centered on V2X and work on how to convey information to pedestrians.
We are also considering signals.
We would like to work on the relationship between sensors, and we are also considering efforts to utilize new measurement technologies to grasp the actual situation of community roads.
On page 6, we are also considering the market perspective of Smart mobility and the efforts related to digital system infrastructure and data infrastructure that Dr. Koshizuka has proposed. I believe that you just discussed the necessity of a centralized database, but in fact, it is not so centralized, but a decentralized data infrastructure will be created, and the data provider will continue to hold the sovereignty of the data. However, it is not enough, so we will combine each database in a federal form. From the user's perspective, there are various conditions, and if they are met, we will aim to make it possible to use various data together.
While utilizing such a data platform, we will also work on initiatives to utilize digital information in the road space called digital sandbox.
It is also related to autonomous driving, and the examination of what the requirements for a car that contributes to re-design are, is a research.
We will also work on social systemization to make it easier to introduce autonomous driving technology.
We will also proceed with social experiments.
We will discuss how to form a community, business and data community in area to introduce mobility.
In order for startups to provide new mobility services, we are considering building a foundation called Shared Service for Mobility, which will make it easier for startups to share and share mobility information.
We will also work on international cooperation to develop measures for the introduction of mobility, which we will newly consider.
There are also efforts to develop human resources who can advance such new mobility services.
From page 8, in relation to the open recruitment of research development themes that are currently underway, the schedule is currently under public recruitment, and public recruitment is being conducted until August 10. The schedule is summarized on page 10, so please take a look.
As for the research system, we would like to decide the implementation system by the end of September. Under the guidance of Dr. Ishida, Dr. Koshizuka, and Dr. Nakamura, NEDO, a research promotion agency, is working on this public offering.
That's all.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.
Next, Mr. National Police Agency, please.
Director of Ito Office, NPA: Next, I am Ito, Director of automated driving Planning Office, NPA. I would like to briefly explain the police's efforts to realize automated driving.
First of all, I would like to briefly touch on the occurrence of traffic accidents in Japan. The number of traffic accident deaths has been on a decreasing trend since 1992, and 2022 was the lowest in the statistics held by the National Police Agency since 1948.
Looking at the number of traffic accidents in 2022, approximately 96% of fatal traffic accidents were caused by law violations by drivers, and it is clear that many fatal traffic accidents were caused by driver errors.
Since the automated driving system replaces the recognition, prediction, judgment, and operation that have been performed by humans, it is expected that traffic accidents will be reduced by the spread of automated driving vehicles.
In addition, traffic congestion on expressways is often caused by the natural decrease in speed of cars in sag areas, etc., and the pressing of brakes by following vehicles due to the blocking of distances between vehicles. Therefore, it is expected that the automated driving system will be able to generate smooth traffic flow without sudden speed changes and ease traffic congestion.
In this way, the automated driving system is effective in reducing traffic accidents and easing traffic congestion. Therefore, the police have been working on various measures from the perspective of supporting the progress of the automated driving system so that it can be realized at an early stage in accordance with the road environments in Japan.
This time, I would like to explain about the development of traffic rules, the development of demonstration experiments environments, and research development.
First of all, it is about the maintenance of traffic rules.
In order to develop systems for the practical use of Level 4 automated driving, in April 2022, a law was passed to partially revise the Road Traffic Law, which includes the creation of a permit system for specified automatic operation, with the realization of unmanned area mobile services for remote monitoring only in a limited automated driving in mind, and came into effect in April this year.
Under this licensing system, when a person intends to operate a specified automated driving without a Level 4 driver, permission from the Prefectural Public Safety Commission is required, and a plan describing the implementation guidelines for measures to be taken in the event that the automated driving system cannot respond is submitted to the Prefectural Public Safety Commission for examination.
In addition, we have established new mandatory regulations on matters to be observed by those who have obtained permission for specific automatic operation and on responses to cases in which the automated driving system cannot respond, such as in the case of traffic accidents. In addition, we have also established regulations on the revocation of permission and administrative penalties against those who have obtained permission.
The image of the permission system for specific automatic operation is as shown in this figure. As shown in the upper part of this figure, corporations such as companies are mainly assumed. After receiving permission, a person who intends to perform specific automatic operation as a specific automatic operation implementer submits an application to the Prefectural Public Safety Commission, and the Prefectural Public Safety Commission conducts an examination according to the five permission criteria on the right side of the figure.
With regard to the matter that "the purpose is to transport people or goods and it is recognized that it contributes to the convenience of area residents or the improvement of welfare" as stated in (5) of the Permission Standards, we will make a decision after hearing the opinions of the mayor of the municipality where the specified automatic service is operated.
In addition to having various obligations, such as compliance with the Specified Automobile Operation Plan, a Specified Automobile Operation Executor who has obtained permission from the Prefectural Public Safety Commission is required to place a Specified Automobile Operation Chief in the vehicle or in a designated location outside the vehicle, as shown on the left side of the figure. The Specified Automobile Operation Chief is required to conduct the same monitoring remotely or from inside the vehicle.
As shown in the lower left of the figure, the Specific Operation Chief is responsible for responding to traffic accidents.
This is the outline of the permission system.
The example of Eiheiji Temple in Fukui Prefecture, which is actually operated on public roads, is a level 4 remote monitoring type.
Since March 2021, the service has been provided by a vehicle equipped with a Level 3 automatic operation device. On March 30, 2023, it was newly approved by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism as a vehicle equipped with an automatic operation device (Level 4), and on May 11, 2023, the Fukui Prefectural Public Safety Commission granted permission for specified automatic operation, and the service is currently being provided.
Next, I would like to explain our efforts for environmental improvement in demonstration experiments.
In May 2016, the NPA established and announced the "Guidelines for demonstration experiments on Public Roads for Autonomous Driving Systems."
These guidelines show that experimental vehicles comply with the provisions of the Security Standards for Road Transport Vehicles, and that demonstration experiments on public roads can be performed without special permission or notification procedures under the condition that the driver can ride in the driver's seat of the experimental vehicle and perform the necessary operations in an emergency.
Some demonstration experiments operations do not follow the guidelines. We have clarified the criteria for road use permission so that demonstration experiments operations using specially shaped automobiles can be performed safely and smoothly.
Common standards for both remote automated driving systems and special purpose vehicles include how to determine the maximum speed during experiments, how to confirm the technical level of the vehicle before autonomous driving, and how to maintain records by using drive recorders and the like to determine the cause of traffic accidents. On the other hand, individual requirements for remote automated driving systems include measures to be taken in the event of a delay in communication, and requirements for special purpose vehicles include the technical level of operators.
This standard was revised in April this year in light of changes in the situation. First, in accordance with the enforcement of the permit system for specified automatic operation, we have clarified the measures to ensure safety and the conditions to be attached to the permit when a specified automatic operation vehicle is operated by using a remote automated driving system on the route after the specified automatic operation has ended.
In the case of national expressways, we have also established new standards for examination, etc. when performing automated driving on public roads using remote demonstration experiments systems.
Finally, I would like to explain about the research development.
This is a research development conducted in the framework of SIP automated driving to provide signal information using cloud, etc. In this research, we are considering a mechanism to provide signal information to automated driving vehicles using a mobile phone communication network such as LTE as a method other than road-to-vehicle communication such as ITS non-track side equipment.
We are considering a flow in which each prefectural police sends traffic signal information in the prefecture to the National Police Agency, and the National Police Agency that receives it collects the nationwide traffic signal information, sends it to the Traffic Signal Information Center (tentative name), and from the Traffic Signal Information Center, sends it to the servers of each company and sends it to the car.
Regarding the signal information provision technology of the V2N system, as a result of the validation of the effectiveness of the entire system from traffic signals to simulated in-vehicle equipment, it was found that the technical requirements for signal information provision required in automated driving were satisfied by the introduction of new specifications for traffic signals, and the development was greatly advanced.
In fiscal 2022, we held a study meeting on the future of social automated driving based on the results obtained in the SIP research development regarding the provision of signal information and traffic regulation information to the cooperative implementation system. I would like to introduce it here.
In order to proceed with the examination, we are interviewing car manufacturers, relevant business operators, traffic control manufacturers, and prefectural police for the purpose of hearing about the use cases, needs, future automated driving trends, etc. of the cooperative development system assumed by the parties concerned in automated driving. The outline is as shown in this ponte.
First of all, regarding the results of the study on how to use signal information and traffic regulation information, it is possible to consider using signal information in cases such as facilitating traffic at intersections by grasping the light color, etc., in advance before entering an intersection and decelerating, or double-checking the light color information recognized by a vehicle-mounted camera.
On the other hand, since all traffic entities should recognize and follow the lights of actual traffic signals in principle, automated driving vehicles should also recognize and follow the lights by using onboard cameras.
In addition, regarding traffic regulation information, although it is necessary for a automated driving vehicles to observe the traffic regulation indicated by actual road signs, etc., if the accuracy of traffic regulation information can be always secured, driving only according to traffic regulation information on a digital map is not necessarily denied.
Next, regarding the matters to be addressed by the police, the results of consideration were presented. While it is not realistic for the police to develop facilities related to the provision of signal information on a large scale or to provide nationwide traffic regulation information while always maintaining accuracy, as an immediate effort, regarding the V2N system, we will continue to promote research and Issue in terms of technical development. In addition, the results of consideration were presented to private business, including consideration of enabling a framework that temporarily allows wireless devices to be connected to signal controllers for demonstration experiments for a longer period than the current framework.
From the viewpoint of supporting the development of automated driving technology, the police will continue to make earnest efforts to improve traffic rules and demonstration experiments environments.
Thank you for your attention.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.
Next, Mr. Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, please.
Masuko Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, Director: I am Masuko, Director of the New Generation Mobile Communication System Promotion Office, Mobile Communication Division, Radio Department, Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications Telecommunications Bureau.
Today, I would like to introduce policy trends toward the introduction of 5.9 GHz band V2X communication, which is currently being worked on in automated driving, in order to "Next-Generation ITS Communication in the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications Era."
As you know, under the leadership of the Digital Agency and Cabinet Offices, related ministries and agencies are working together to promote ITS. Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications is in charge of developing information and communication environments.
As you are aware, it is quite difficult to connect automobiles with optical fibers when considering communication, so we use radio waves for communication and various uses. From highway radios in the past to in-vehicle radar systems, which are recently used for brakes, we use radio waves of various frequencies from low to high.
In the upper left, there is the 700 MHz Band Safe Driving Support System, which has been in use since 2015. This system is so-called V2X communication, which uses radio waves in the 10 MHz band. With this frequency band, it is possible to broadcast the current information and status of the current vehicle to the people around you. However, when considering automated driving and other matters, there is a lack of bandwidth for signaling the intention of the vehicle, or for coordination and negotiation when dividing and merging. Therefore, there is an international movement to use the 5.9 GHz band for V2X. Therefore, there is a movement to allocate an additional 5.9 GHz band in addition to the 760 MHz band.
In response to this situation, Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications has been holding the "Study Group on' Next-Generation ITS Communications in the automated driving Era'" since February this year, and Dr. Morikawa of the University of Tokyo has been leading discussions on the additional allocation of 5.9 GHz and V2X. An interim report is scheduled to be released this summer, around August.
V2X communication and V2N communication are generally referred to, but if we talk about them without clear definitions, the discussion will mostly diverge. There is an interpretation that V2X communication, Vehicle to Everything, includes networks in a broad sense, but in order to prevent confusion, we have defined V2X communication only in the form of so-called V2I communication and V2V communication, Vehicle to Infrastructure and Vehicle to Vehicle, and have divided V2N communication, so-called mobile phone data lines, into the outer frame of V2X communication.
As you know, it is a mobile phone line, V2N communication, but as shown in the lower part of the table, you can use the mobile phone system as it is, so communication is possible in most cases.
On the other hand, the communication ratio is always the best effort.
In addition, as was a problem last year, there is a disadvantage that if there is a failure in the mobile network, there will be a problem in communication.
On the other hand, if dedicated V2X communications can be used, direct communications will enable transmission without considerable delay, and of course, there will be the merit of not being affected by failures in the mobile phone network, so I believe that it is an extremely good system to use in areas related to safety.
With regard to the background of the discussion on the 5.9 GHz band, in the Cabinet Office's consideration of SIP, there has been discussion that the 5.9 GHz band will be necessary as a new communication system in automated driving from around 2030, and that a frequency bandwidth of 20 GHz or more will be necessary.
If it is difficult to expand the 10 GHz band of the currently used 760 MHz band, which is jammed on both sides, we are considering whether it would be better to use the 5.9 GHz band, which is being used internationally.
Regarding the Coordinated automated driving use cases and the Road Map, we are conducting consideration in accordance with what was compiled here.
This is an outline of the draft interim report of our study group. As I mentioned earlier, it is scheduled to be compiled and announced around August. I would like to introduce it as a draft. In terms of the positioning of V2X communication, as you can see in the figure on the upper right, I believe that areas very close to cars will basically be covered by in-vehicle sensors. If you want to provide information about 1 km or 10 km away, I think it is good to make good use of V2N using mobile phone networks.
On the other hand, there is information that cannot be reached by in-vehicle sensors and that must be obtained immediately. In the case of mobile phones, it is difficult to obtain such information through servers and delays. Therefore, I believe that V2X is expected to be a system that can bridge the gap between in-vehicle sensors and mobile phones.
There are some areas that are quite far from the common sense of the communication industry. Until now, the communication industry has only had to look at the content to be sent, whether it can be sent properly, and mainly the amount of content and transmission volume. However, this time, communication by car has an extremely difficult Issue, and the Issue is that the joy of the information on the receiving end will change greatly depending on the accuracy of the location information. When we put V2X communication into practical use, I think that the Issue will be to communicate properly with the accuracy of the location information of the car properly improved.
In fact, if you do not know which lane you are driving in, the person who receives the information will not be able to honestly tell how to handle it. Therefore, I wonder if it is a kind of automated driving society to drive while sharing location information with others so that you can at least understand where you are at the lane level.
In addition, I believe that such digital communication has tremendous benefits, and I believe that even now drivers are using communication. Hazard lights, which are used in the sense of thank you, can be used for some types of communication, and I think that there are times when brake lights are turned on five times and when headlights are turned on. For example, at an intersection where people are facing each other on the right, when the headlights are turned on, everyone warns them for the time being, but it is very ambiguous whether they mean to go or wait. If this is sent digitally, it will be sent as an extremely clear message, and I expect that communication will become extremely important in enhancing security in the automated driving era.
In addition, if such a new communication system is introduced, it will inevitably spread to Issue. According to the JAMA's consideration, it is said that it will be around 2040 when it will be put into practical use around 2030 and the actual cooperative automated driving will be negotiated and merged based on the notification.
However, even if we are asked to install a wireless system in 2030 that will be used 10 years in the future, it will not have any impact on car users. I think that unless users feel happy as soon as they pay for it, there will be no momentum for the introduction of it.
Of course, I believe that there will be some people who will accept this as a future investment, but in addition to that, I am aware of the issue of whether we must consider that there will be benefits even in the immediate future.
In that sense, for the time being, we must consider the use cases in the introduction period separately from the use cases in the diffusion period. With regard to the use cases in the introduction period, I believe that we must consider ITS, not only for road transportation but also for applications, such as the possibility of linking the ITS with a 5.9 GHz system that can be installed in a parking lot of an apartment building and that opens the gate when you get close without doing anything.
On the other hand, it is a wireless system that is also related to safety, so I believe that everything will be included. It is a waste of money to send entertainment videos that are viewed in the company over this band even if they are related to cars, so such things should be done over mobile phone lines. On the other hand, by using this communication, cars will become more convenient and users will feel the benefits. I think that use cases must be taken in very well from the beginning. In addition, as the number of such wireless systems increases and they spread throughout the world, I think that there will be an increase in the number of people who want to use them in various ways. So, in use cases, we hope to create a system that can be expanded in the future. Recently, we have OTA technology, and we hope to create a system that can respond to functional expansion by rewriting software.
It is a specific direction of introduction.
The 5.9 GHz band for V2X communications is being considered in the United States and Europe, but the bandwidth used varies slightly from country to country. For the time being, Japan is considering using this band, and we must secure a bandwidth of at least 20 MHz. On the other hand, if we want to open all of them, some broadcasters are using wireless devices, so we must make a transition for them.
During our discussions, we found that the upper half of the 5.9 GHz band is used in slightly different ways than the lower half, and transition is relatively easy for the upper half. On the other hand, transition to other frequencies is quite difficult for the lower half, so other countries are also using 30 MHz or 20 MHz, so for the time being, we are considering transition the upper half of the band and incorporating V2X communication up to 30 MHz into this band.
Of course, when we install such a new system, other systems, especially radio waves, may cause inconvenience to our neighbors. Therefore, we would like to aim to use a maximum of 30 MHz for the time being after considering whether or not it will cause inconvenience to broadcast business radio stations that will be used nearby or ETC that is actually used nearby.
With regard to the direction of consideration for this roadmap, it will take a long period of time, such as 10 years or 15 years, to carry out frequency transition for radio stations as usual. However, if frequency transition for radio stations for broadcasting services is to start in 2035 or so, it will not be very good from the perspective of innovation, so can we shorten this period? Another Issue is that we must consider measures to promote frequency transition.
I believe that METI will speak about this in the future, but there is a move to formulate a Comprehensive Nationwide Development Plan for Digital Infrastructure by the end of this fiscal year. This is a document announced by METI at the end of March, and I have heard that drones and automated driving will be the two pillars of the Early Harvest Project, and that automated driving Support Road will be set up in it.
Communication is one of the infrastructures in these places, so our problem awareness is that we need to create an environment in which experimental tests of radio stations in the 5.9 Ghz band can be actively introduced.
I would like to contribute to this, so please turn to the next page.
This is a document that Minister for Internal Affairs and Communications presented in Conference on the Realization of the Digital Garden City Nation Vision on June 2. In automated driving and drones, I expressed Japan's stance of properly contributing to Comprehensive Strategy for the Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation.
First of all, in terms of support for automated driving in area, we will conduct demonstrations of automated driving in area, and there are needs for remote monitoring, especially when automated driving is conducted at Level 4 limited area. There is a need for stable transmission of images, so in that sense, we would like to promote the development of a new type of communication network called 5G SA, standalone, which enables bandwidth guarantee, etc., and we would like to build 5G SA base stations where there are needs, in cooperation with Level 4 operators.
In addition, in terms of automated driving's support for expressways, we would like to quickly advance the development of environments that can be used for V2X communications in the 5.9 Ghz band, which I mentioned earlier, particularly for automated driving Support Roads. In Comprehensive Strategy for the Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation, we will aim to expand the concept of such support roads, expand their use in various ways, and eventually use them throughout Japan, so Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications is also considering rapidly expanding the areas where the 5.9 Ghz band can be used by making good use of such moves.
That's all.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.
Next, please start with the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry.
Director of Izumi Office, Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry: I am Izumi
Now, regarding the status of consideration of the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifelines, this is a policy that we are advancing with the cooperation of eight ministries and 17 bureaus plus IPA.
I have just explained the launch of the digital lifeline at the second workshop, so today I would like to talk about the update including the overall background.
My explanation is mainly on the first page. First of all, the entire government, including the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, is taking measures to realize Society5.0. According to Mr. Saito, this is a policy that has been implemented as a symbol of public-private cooperation on science and technology policy with the Japan Federation of Economic Organizations (Keidanren), with the aim of firmly establishing policies in one direction through public-private cooperation in response to policies of other countries, such as Industry 4.0 and IIC. In this regard, together with IPA/DADC, we have announced the Architecture design for Autonomous Mobile Robots and the Guidelines for four dimensional Spatial Information Infrastructure, and with a view to the Japanese version of Catena-X, we have issued a guideline alpha version on data connections in the supply chain, and we will continue to expand use cases horizontally.
In addition, we have named it the Uranus Ecosystem, and we are advancing it as the National Comprehensive Plan for Digital Lifeline Development, including measures to give it momentum and make it solid. In relation to this, as I introduced in the 2nd meeting, Prime Minister Kishida gave instructions to Minister Nishimura at the 12th meeting in Conference on the Realization of the Digital Garden City Nation Vision.
In response, we held a realization meeting, and the secretariat materials are attached as they are below the reference materials, so I would like to explain the points of this material from now on.
I would like to repeat this, but according to Dr. Nakamura's explanation today, forming a new area living area even amid a declining population is a kind of re-design and is the responsibility of the government. And what will be created will be thoroughly incorporated into the medium-to-long-term plan. As you have already cited today, from the perspective of connecting the demonstration of a line from dots or a plane by layering lines to social implementation, we are considering what the components of the digital lifeline are and what the image of the implementation is as a social automated driving, while incorporating the pleasant aspects of drones,, and infrastructure management by 3D into the plan. As for the components of the digital lifeline, as I explained in the second installment, we are considering what the components are from the perspective of every corner of Japan, what should be developed as data in cyberspace, and what should be developed, including communication infrastructure, as a point of contact that connects physical and cyber. Naturally, from the perspective of developing rules including social acceptability, etc., I believe that one issue is to achieve both strategic development of digital infrastructure and strategic downsizing of legacy infrastructure.
In the promotion system of the Government, as shown in this (screen), each ministry is committed to and quoted in the materials. In particular, multiple ministries and agencies related to measures, such as Digi-katsu and drones, are cooperating with each other, and automated driving is also interacting in this way. In particular, Digital Agency is aware that Public-Private ITS Concept and Roadmap will be developed as a "Mobility Roadmap." In that case, I believe that "Mobility Roadmap" will be discussed with a broad scope of expanding it to every corner of Japan.
Here, the realization meeting is held by the directors of eight ministries and 17 bureaus as members for the purpose of formulating and agreeing on a plan between the public and private sectors. When I visited Member Suzuki, who is the representative of JUTM, at first, I was guided by him that he wanted us to be enthusiastic enough to create a system that adds control administration and road administration firmly, as symbolized by the flying car. In this way, we have a cross-sectional system. Among them, the first realization meeting was held at the end of June, in which the head of the provider side, the head of the user side, and the head of the public organization in private sector input the progress to the big meeting, and the working group also made steady progress. In the future, we will set a 10-year plan while firmly determining specifications or components, operators, bearers, and advance area during consideration, and bring it to the Cabinet decision. In this, the point is how to combine drones, automated driving, and infrastructure management in the advance area. (Next) I will skip these three pages and go to the next page.
In particular, when new technologies are deployed in society, as you discussed today, even if product-oriented, that is, people who provide goods, are told to use them, they do not spread well. In that sense, it was said that it is important for Mr. Saito to extract data from the demand side. In the sense of matching demand and supply, it is one way of thinking to think mainly about large trunk roads or inspections of trunk roads.
At that time, we are now considering the idea of designating a leading drones from the perspective of social automated driving when the three implementation, area, and infrastructure are superimposed according to demand.
The main opinions expressed at the first Implementation Meeting were that it is important to thoroughly organize specifications and operators together, that in doing so, distribution and people's flow should be carried out not only in normal times but also in emergencies, and that both providers and users should commit to the outlook for use and supply. As was the case with infrastructure and other matters, I believe that it is important for the relevant ministries and agencies to take specific dissemination policies or budgetary support measures in response to each assumption of when it will be developed and when it will be used. Although it has not been officially issued yet, I would like to summarize the opinions of experts by saying that it is important to create an environment in which private sector can invest with peace of mind by creating a plan with high predictability, so high predictability is important for the plan. In that case, members of automated driving expressed the opinion that private sector Support Route is very important, but that we would like to see it steadily extended from Tokyo Station to Nagoya Station or Osaka Station, rather than being implemented in a short period of time.
Today, I received a report from each ministry. As you are working on as a policy, cooperation between roads and vehicles is very important. At that time, you said that it is important to firmly develop not only interchanges but also departure and arrival points for people's flow and distribution, and that it is important to develop automated driving vehicles lanes, that is, as Chairman Ishida commented at the beginning, roads should be divided into two types and roads should be developed so that automobiles can travel with peace of mind.
In addition, there have been comments that we would like to see the operators of these systems, particularly in data connections, to be firmly set up as a horizontal mechanism, and in that case, the development of a computing infrastructure that can respond to the amount of data computation, in the sense of social infrastructure, to be materialized through public-private cooperation, and that we would like to see these considerations thoroughly advanced from the perspective of providing services to consumers and disaster assistance.
In terms of future formulation, in the sense that we will make the small points into the big ones and increase the sense of quality at the beginning, we are considering that we can start with an advanced local government and company while paying attention to social acceptability, and that we can expand our business in a way that there is no reputation risk of failure. On the other hand, with regard to the burden ratio between the public and private sectors, in the short term, the government will take the lead, and in the medium term, we will take a firm balance, and in the end, we will aim to be able to run our business steadily over the long term. In addition, we would like to clearly formulate standards for development as a plan.
On the other hand, this time, I would like to talk about incentives, enforcement, and monitoring. In particular, with regard to automated driving services, costs are paid in terms of distribution and the like, and in particular, with regard to drones, it is difficult to pay for costs alone either at this point or in the medium to long term. Depending on the situation, we should consider various ways, including purchasing in emergencies through public-private cooperation.
Also, of course, it is important to set KPI and KGI firmly and to set indicators so that the formulated plan can run on its own.
This is the last page of the explanation. The related efforts are organized mainly on the activities of IPA/DADC with the guidance of Mr. Saito, the President of IPA. If we look at Digital Garden City or smart cities, what we are working on is smart homes and smart buildings as the components of digital society, smart mobility as the relationship between the components, and intelligent contracts including data connections infrastructure for cooperation in digital completion. From this perspective, we are looking at digital society as a whole, developing a three dimensional digital infrastructure for cooperation between mobility and implementation in an AI society, and we are currently working on the Uranus Ecosystem as an initiative for public-private cooperation.
Data connections is a typical example of the history of forming an ecosystem. For example, in response to the European Battery Regulation, a data connections mechanism that cuts across the industries of "things" such as automobiles and batteries is required. Therefore, IPA/DADC has been set up as a place for cross-industry dialogue between the relevant divisions and industry, and we are working to realize policies such as Architecture design. That is all the explanation from METI.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .
Next, Kyoto-san from the Automobile Division of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, please.
Assistant to Mr. Keito, Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry: My name is Keito, and I am from the Automobile Division of the Ministry of Economy, Trade
As you just explained, I would like to explain that we will work from the perspective of how to link and cooperate the discussions on the Comprehensive National Development Plan for Digital Lifelines with the field demonstration that we have been promoting so far and the cooperation between the relevant ministries and agencies.
First of all, we are participating for the first time under the name of the mobility DX Office. Until now, we have been called the ITS and Self-Driving Promotion Office. Of course, we have not been engaged in various activities just for the purpose of self-driving. We are working on the idea that Issue is essential for solving social automated driving and winning global competition at the same time. Therefore, we have been changing the name since July so that the name represents the body.
In order to address the issues that I just mentioned, the basic recognition of the situation is that, as I have explained thus far, in order to respond to social digitalization, such as the softwareization of cars themselves and the acceleration of Issue, it is necessary to build new services, not technologies. To that end, as explained by the relevant ministries and agencies, it will be necessary to rebuild infrastructure and law, and we are working with your cooperation.
In particular, as we discussed earlier, we are not completely switching from manual driving to automated driving, for example. On the left side, we are talking about easing traffic congestion as the second part of safe and smooth road traffic. Even if we do not change everything to automated driving, we can of course contribute to solving social Issue just by mixing cars that accelerate and decelerate at a certain pace based on a proper prediction of future traffic conditions. We are also working on the joy of driving, and for those who want to drive themselves, we are working on a society in which many people can move comfortably, which is in the middle, and we are working on improving comfort and increasing the number of people who can drive happily, which is written in the upper part, and improving industrial competitiveness, which is written in the right side, and we are working on the cooperation of various services to achieve the results that one customer wants, rather than the scattering of individual and separate services, and we are working on making your society better not only by direct driving and transportation, but also by efficiency in the transportation and distribution industry.
On page 4, with this in mind, we have been working on the concept of starting where possible and moving as quickly as possible. In other words, rather than starting with private vehicles, which are expected to have complex traffic environments and run anywhere, we have been advancing a project to advance the implementation of Level 4 automated driving from commercial vehicles, which are easy to narrow down the driving conditions.
As you pointed out in the beginning, we recognize that it is from a service car. You also pointed out that it is a small mobility and a slow mobility. I will explain later, but in Eiheiji Temple in Fukui Prefecture, a cart type has started service this year. I will explain later.
I would like to skip pages 5 and 6 for your reference. On page 7, I would like to talk about technology based on the premise that I have just talked about. To listen to the previous discussion, it is a major premise that automated driving does not form a transportation society alone, and that we observe traffic rules together with neighboring traffic participants while sharing public infrastructure. What we are working on here is not a technology-oriented place, but rather a future in which cars in automated driving travel. In the upper left corner of Theme 1 below, we are working to realize a level 4 transportation service.
It has been pointed out that this is a narrow and extremely limited area, but it is advancing at an extremely slow pace. In addition to technical achievements, we have made a development using a new method with the cooperation of many people during the period required for approval and permission. The development is a development that includes the approval and permission process, but a large amount of knowledge has been accumulated, and we are still accepting visits every day, and we are continuing to share knowledge by accepting visits from police and other relevant organizations. This is an important first example.
Needless to say, not only this, but as indicated by the blue triangle arrow, for example, the area to be traveled and the type of vehicles will be expanded. At the lower left is Theme 3, which is also a discussion on digital lifelines, and as I will explain later, we are discussing what is necessary for coordination with infrastructure to cope with mixed spaces, including logistics systems, people, and goods.
Once again, I would like to explain the details. Eiheiji Temple in Fukui Prefecture has achieved Level 4. It is very limited. It is not only from the technical point of view that it is slowly following the electromagnetic induction line, but it is also the most important point that it continues to produce many knowledge. This is the first example of great importance to us.
As I said earlier, we should start from what we can do as early as possible, but what can contribute to the social Issue mentioned in the beginning is the technology called automated driving. To that end, as I said at the beginning, it is necessary to adjust, discuss, and research development in all the hardware and software rules at the lower left.
This discussion is included in the discussion of the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifeline, which is a very large project. I believe that our contribution will be how to incorporate the content of the discussions together with related ministries and agencies and between the public and private sectors.
In terms of how we will contribute, I would like to reiterate that we must think about how we will be used, not how we will stand on the basis of technology. As stated in the second sentence in the light blue part, we are planning to materialize this through discussions with each ministry. We intend to use the discussions on digital lifelines with all parties concerned, and we would like to make it possible for a wide range of people to participate.
The members of the Digital Lifeline are a little different from the members of the discussions that we have been advancing so far, but there is no other intention, and the members are gathered with the aim of creating good things and cooperating with each other.
There are many details about what we are actually working on, but what is particularly important, as I would like you to see in the vertical column at the far left end of the table, is the period from FY2024 to FY2025.
Theme 3, which I explained in the previous slide, which we have been working on, will be implemented until the end of FY2025. Therefore, we will actually realize the Level 4 automated driving Truck on expressways, but FY2024 and FY2025 will be exactly the same period for discussions on existing projects and digital lifelines. I believe it is particularly important, and at the first realization meeting in June, Chairman Ishida also pointed out that we must maximize the public interest so that infrastructure is not developed only for Level 4. I believe that such a perspective is also the point of contribution as the division in charge of the work that we have been working on together with the industrial world.
In addition, what you pointed out today is how to use the system while absorbing the needs of users. If you look at the business feasibility below, which is written as demonstration experiments on the left, we will have the participation of distribution and transportation companies, and we will consider the ideal way of infrastructure and cars while absorbing the needs and accompanying them. This tends to be a debate between chicken and egg, so we have tried to advance it by stepping in so that it does not become so. From such a perspective, I believe that the debate on digital lifelines will be a great tailwind. With your cooperation, we will make a solid contribution, and we will utilize it, including existing projects.
That's all.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.
In the end, I would like to ask the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism to start.
Shimokawa, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism: , Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, mobility
After I explain Re Design, the Department of Motor Vehicles will explain about automated driving.
This is today's composition. I will explain the promotion of new mobility services that contribute to re-design, including MaaS, and then the Automobile Bureau will explain it.
This is the current situation in public transportation, area. Due to the declining population, the long-term decline in users has become a serious situation. Due to the impact of the novel coronavirus, the situation is so serious that some people believe that more than 10 years have passed at once. In particular, some local railways are in a situation where they cannot fully demonstrate their characteristics as a mass transit, and we believe that it is necessary to take measures.
As described above, the management of many transportation companies is currently in a difficult situation, so the decrease in demand is unavoidable only through the management efforts of transportation companies. Therefore, we believe that it is necessary to re-design the area public transportation by strengthening cooperation and collaboration between various parties in area, including the public and private sectors, rather than working only in the transportation field.
Based on this idea, as Mr. Nakamura explained, the area public transportation Subcommittee also discussed it, and in June this year, the idea for re-design was compiled. We believe that transportation DX, which implementation digital technologies such as automated driving and MaaS, has the potential to be a catalyst for promoting convenience in the transportation field. At the same time, we would like to promote re-design of area public transportation through efforts to sustain public transportation through co-creation by various parties, including area. area
It is necessary to promote new mobility services that contribute to re-design. We believe that MaaS, which integrates all modes of transportation and adds high value to transportation means and services by cooperating with the fields of accommodation, tourism, medical care, welfare, and education, will promote co-creation that strengthens cooperation and collaboration between various parties in area, including the public and private sectors. Regarding the concept and efforts of MaaS, efforts to resolve Issue are advancing in various parts of Japan.
In addition, we believe that it is essential to promote the use of items included in new transportation services such as AI on-demand transportation services, ultra-small mobility, and automated driving in order to respond to the diversifying transportation needs of each area in a detailed manner.
In addition, we believe that MaaS in cooperation with other fields and analysis and utilization of travel-related data in the transportation field obtained from new transportation services can be expected to contribute to town development and infrastructure development in conjunction with transportation.
Therefore, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism is working to utilize this information, such as promoting new transportation services, including automated driving, together with MaaS, and cooperating with other fields.
We are making progress on the Japanese version of MaaS.
We are working on the concept of universal MaaS, and we are developing a Japanese version of MaaS as a mechanism in which all people can use new mobility services in every area, including cities and rural areas, the elderly, and the disabled.
As you may already know, in the Kansai region, in preparation for the Kansai Expo, efforts are being made to deepen tourism information in Kansai MaaS in conjunction with Expo apps, etc., and efforts are also being made to provide services over a wide area of Kyushu.
These are expected to contribute to resolving the public transportation of area, such as maintaining and activating the area Issue, by creating travel demand through integration with services other than transportation, as well as convenience for travel. With regard to these MaaS efforts, we will expand the geographical area and further cooperate with other fields.
With regard to MaaS, existing efforts are underway, but upgrading data connections is necessary for further regional expansion, and in June 2020, the Study Group on Upgrading data connections was compiled. Where efforts are already underway, it was confirmed that it is important to advance data connections and not to leave data connections applicants such as small and medium-sized businesses and local businesses behind.
Therefore, since fiscal 2022, we have been cooperating with Digital Agency in certain areas where multiple business operators can cooperate over a wide area, and are conducting demonstration projects of the data connections base. We aim to build and spread a base for cooperating data within a certain group, and then a base for cooperating with other bases.
We believe that it is important to advance efforts using not only MaaS but also new transportation services. We would like to advance co-creation while utilizing digital technology and advance efforts related to re-design to integrally promote social Issue solutions in area, rather than Issue solutions solved by transportation operators alone.
What we are promoting as a co-creation project is, for example, AI on-demand transportation services. In order to secure transportation for the elderly, including shopping, in a area with inconvenient transportation, we are using AI on-demand transportation services.
In addition, with regard to Green Slow mobility, efforts are being made to promote convenience and outings, which contributes to resolving Issue, by introducing the system and distributing coupons at shopping centers.
By promoting the co-creation of such a new type of transportation service and area in an integrated manner, we would like to continue to promote efforts to solve traffic in area by utilizing new technologies, without considering it as a problem only for transportation companies. Since there is a new conference body, we would like to promote cooperation.
Then, please make an announcement about the automated driving by the new transportation service from the Department of Motor Vehicles.
Koho, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism: This is Koho of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure
Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity today.
I would like to talk about automated driving. Today, due to your time, I would like to talk only about automated driving, which is limited to area.
The current status and goals of automated driving technology are as follows. We have achieved Level 3 for private cars, and as I believe you have heard from various ministries and agencies, we achieved Level 4 for mobile services in Eiheiji-cho in May this year.
Going forward, relevant ministries and agencies are working together to accelerate Level 4 and expand and spread automated driving's mobile services nationwide.
As I heard from related ministries and agencies, I would like to omit the details. However, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism is looking at the safety of vehicles, and on March 30 this year, we implemented Level 4 approval for vehicles in Eiheiji-cho as so-called Level 4 vehicles that do not require a driver. After that, after obtaining permission for specific automatic operation from the National Police Agency, we started the service on May 21. Not only in Eiheiji-cho, automated driving demonstration experiments is performed in various parts of Japan. The current situation is that demonstration experiments is performed in various parts of Japan by various companies in various travel spaces and with various vehicles.
Various kinds of demonstration experiments have been held throughout Japan, and I am aware that various kinds of Issue are also being seen.
We recognize that there are three major Issue.
The first is to improve security. I believe that one major Issue is not only the technology of the vehicles, but also the infrastructure and roads, how they will be driven, and how they will be secured in total.
The second is the understanding of area. How will automated driving vehicles be operated under the premise of observing traffic rules? I recognize that it is a very big Issue in terms of social acceptance, such as how will it be operated to gain the understanding of people in area?
The third point is how to secure business and profitability in order to run automated driving vehicles sustainably. I believe that this is a major Issue. Like automated driving at Level 4, where monitoring can be done on a one to-n basis, there is an idea of increasing the number of n s rapidly. Of course, there is also an idea of evaluating what social benefits there are by running automated driving, not just automated driving vehicles. At present, however, I believe that a business model has yet to be established.
With regard to this type of Issue, we recognize that there is still very little driving experience. I believe that there are many demonstration experiments that end in a single automated driving vehicles, so we would like to aim to find a Issue and solve the problem by driving the local government for as long as possible, and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) is providing support to the Shinkansen that is working on the demonstration projects.
In terms of the outline of implementation, Mr. local government has been providing support to automated driving since last fiscal year, and last year we provided support to demonstration projects mainly in four cases.
For this fiscal year, we are planning to significantly expand the support area and develop demonstration projects nationwide, and the deadline for public offering is currently tomorrow.
That's all from me.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.
Mr. Suda, please.
Member: I'm Suda from the University of Tokyo, .
Thank you very much for telling me a very meaningful story today.
As I am also involved in various matters in various positions, I am deeply involved in Mr. Nakamura, Mr. Yamamoto, and other ministries and agencies, so I would like to refrain from making individual comments. In closing, I would like to introduce what I felt after listening to you. As shown in the figure of the progress at the automated driving level during the second phase of SIP, I divided the story of operating with an owner car and the story of a service car in public transportation. I thought that it was quite important to talk about how to merge or classify the story of the re-design of public transportation and the story of the owner car.
Mr. Nakamura is more of a public transportation story, and according to Mr. Yamamoto, the main thing is the owner car. Even in the government office's story, Mr. Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications is more of an owner car oriented story, and while he is talking about service cars, in the end, if we are to cooperate in infrastructure, we must consider the owner car. This is also the case with data connections. I thought it would be necessary to classify those areas well.
In addition, today may be the last hearing, but I thought that there were no related parties such as public transportation operators, including railways, the Japan Road Traffic Information Center, which you mentioned earlier, or ETC-related parties, so I was curious about how they would be incorporated.
That's all from me. I would like to make a comment.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.
How do you like it? Go ahead.
Hidaka: As for the new mobility in , it may be new to us, but as you know, similar cars are implementation in area overseas, including in the People's Republic of China and the United States. I think Eiheiji Temple is also a very useful example in Japan, but there are places overseas that are already running. In particular, since around 2013, there have been various trials and errors in terms of what kind of demand is in Issue, how to cooperate with existing buses and subways, and how to get in. I think there are places that have progressed in various ways during the novel coronavirus period, so I would like to take a look at overseas cases, past cases, and the current situation, which will be very useful in considering this roadmap.
I believe that various organizations such as the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI), IPA, and the Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications (DPI) are conducting surveys on this issue. We have learned a lot from overseas about how to coordinate user demand and mobility supply, and how to link mobility supply and demand. Some of them are already working on this issue. I do not know whether this issue is part of the roadmap or the SIP, but I would like to refer to this issue. I would also like to contribute to this issue.
That's all.
: Thank you very much for your time.
Next time, for the study group on the 9th, I would like to show you in advance what will be the basis of the materials for the day.
The purpose of this Study Group is not to draw a conclusion on each item, but to organize the items to be discussed. I was wondering how to make a list of the efforts of each ministry that you explained today. Although it is not yet in the form of a roadmap, I would like to respect them and make sure that they are included in the list. Even if we put them side by side, among the discussions that have been made so far, there are some that are making specific progress in consideration, some that are weak, and some that are standard but still do not appear. The goal of this Study Group is to make a good balance between these and make it clear that these are important items to be considered. Therefore, if you discuss it openly, it is expected that the final summary at the next Study Group will be left to Mr. Ishida at the end. From such a perspective, we would like to discuss this and that. In addition, I did not have much time to ask questions to each ministry today. If there is anything I would like to ask again, I will introduce each ministry to you. If there is anything, I would like to ask you without hesitation.
That's all.
Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .
Today, I received a report from each ministry, and I felt that the level of concreteness of the story has increased significantly. At the same time, as is the case today, I wonder where we will really start. Or, there was a story that the demand side should really think seriously in order to cheer up everyone. I think today's outcome was very significant.
All we have to do is to find the beginning, but I think it is still a difficult work. While the Secretariat is working hard, the members did not have time today, so I would be very grateful if you could convey such an idea to the Secretariat. I am pleased. Thank you very much. I would like to finish.
Thank you very much.
Counsellor Asayama: Thank you, Mr. , for your very valuable opinions today.
As stated by the Director-General, the next meeting is scheduled for August 9 at 3:00 p.m., so I would like to show you something in advance.
Some ministries have joined us on short notice today, but this is an important time for the compilation, so I would like to consult with you in various ways. In the final round, if possible, I would like you to join us and help us continue our discussions.
Thank you for your time today.