First digital society Concept Conference
Overview
- Date and Time: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 (2021) from 4:30 pm to 6:00 pm
- Location: Online Meeting
- Agenda:
- Opening
- Proceedings
- New Promotion System
- History and other matters
- Free discussion
- Adjournment
Materials
- Agenda (PDF/115KB)
- Appendix 1: New Promotion System (PDF / 237 kb)
- Material 2: Operation Guidelines for the digital society Concept Conference (Draft) (PDF / 41 kb)
- Appendix 3: Background to the Accident (PDF / 783 kb)
- Data 4-1: Data to be submitted by Mr. Ikeda (PDF / 655 kb)
- Document 4-2: Documents to be submitted by Mr. Ota (PDF / 109 kb)
- Document 4-3: Documents to be submitted by Mr. Kawabe (PDF / 1,727 kb)
- Document 4-4: Documents to be submitted by members of the national territory (PDF / 121 kb)
- Appendix 4-5: Documents to be submitted by Mr. Koshizuka (PDF / 873 kb)
- Materials 4-6: Materials to be submitted by Mr. Natsuno (PDF / 128 kb)
- Appendix 4-7: Documents to be submitted by Mr. Hirai (PDF / 825 kb)
- Attachment 4-8: Materials to be submitted by Mr. Mikitani (PDF / 4,960 kb)
- Materials 4-9: Materials to be submitted by Wakamiya Members (PDF / 125 kb)
- Minutes (PDF/318KB)
References
- Reference 1: Holding of the digital society Concept Conference (decided by Minister for Digital Transformation on September 7, 2021) (PDF / 68 kb)
- Reference Material 2 digital reform's Efforts to Date (PDF / 681 kb)
- Reference Material 3 Priority plan for Realization of digital society
(Cabinet Decision on June 18, 2021) (PDF / 1,466 kb)
Minutes
Secretariat: In , Thank you very much for taking the time to attend today. As it is on time, we will be holding the "digital society Concept Conference" from now.
At the outset, the Secretariat would like to give you some information.
The plenary session will be a paperless conference, and the materials will be viewed on the terminal in front of you and on the screen in front of you.
In addition, today's meeting will be held online, and it will be possible for members of the Committee and Digital Agency staff to attend.
Now, with regard to the proceedings of the plenary session, I would like to ask Mr. Murai, Chairman of the Board. Thank you very much.
Chairman Murai: . Thank you very much for taking the time to come here.
I am Murai from Keio University, and I have been appointed to chair this meeting. Nice to meet you.
First of all, I would like to receive an address from Minister for Digital Transformation Hirai at the opening of the meeting. Thank you very much.
Minister for Digital Transformation Hirai: Thank you very much, Thank you very much for taking the time to participate in the digital society Concept Conference today.
Digital Agency was established on September 1. From now on, I will make every effort with a sense of speed to realize a society in which we can choose services that match the needs of each person and can realize diverse happiness from the perspective of the people.
When we created Digital Agency, Prime Minister Suga instructed us to make it a symbol of regulatory reform and a pillar of our growth strategy. Looking at the IMD index, I believe that Japan is 27th in the world in terms of digital competitiveness (2020) and 14th in the e-government ranking (2020). Therefore, I believe that we must take this seriously and take new measures while summarizing what went wrong.
The other is the issue of growth potential and competitiveness. The pillar of the growth strategy is the fact that we have to admit that the economy has been stagnant for the past 20 years. I would like to hear your opinions on the reflection that we underestimated the impact of digital and how to incorporate the power of digital into the growth strategy.
At this conference, I would like to invite all the members to discuss the future vision of Japan's nation and society, including the ideal society as a whole, the ideal government, the ideal local local government, supercities, smart cities, and various ways of community development.
As we approach Priority plan at the end of the year, there are issues that must be addressed immediately in the areas of medical care, education, and natural disasters. That is why I would like to hear from all of you about long-term efforts that must be made immediately, and in particular, about the system for moving society in the future in response to the novel coronavirus, as the people of Japan are in trouble.
I would like to hear your free and open-minded opinions, and as you explained at the beginning, the 600 staff members of Digital Agency can attend the meeting. Therefore, I would like to proceed in a very open manner, so I would like to hear your frank opinions. I would like to ask you to do that in the end.
Thank you for your time today.
Chairman Murai: .
If you are a member of the press, please leave the room now.
(Departure of Press Personnel)
Chairman Murai: Now, I would like to proceed with the agenda. You will leave the meeting in the middle of the session due to your official duties, and will participate in the meeting again after the meeting.
Minister for Digital Transformation Hirai: Thank you very much, , so please forgive me.
Chairman Murai: .
Next, I would like to introduce the members by distributing Reference Material 1 instead of introducing them.
Today, I heard that there is a possibility that Mr. Kawabe will leave the office in the middle of the meeting, so I would like you to speak first, but after that, you will speak in the order of A, I, and U.
Then, I would like to ask the secretariat to explain the proceedings "(1) New promotion system" and "(2) History up to now."
Director-General Tomiyasu (Strategic and organization Affairs): I am Tomiyasu, Director-General . Nice to meet you.
Please show me Handout 1. If you open page 1, it is "organizational system in Digital Agency".
Digital Agency was established on September 1 with the participation of Mr. Minister for Digital Transformation, Mr. Chief Officer of the Digital Agency, Mr. Chief Officer for Digital Policy, Senior Advisor, Special Advisor, and Mr. CxO, all of whom are headed by the Prime Minister. organization was also established with four functional groups.
It is page 2. It is "New Promotion System."
The Council for the Promotion of a Digital Society on the left is composed of all Ministers. I believe it is a decision-making body. Under the Council for the Promotion of a Digital Society, there are an executive board and a sub-executive board.
On the upper right, we have established the digital society Concept Conference under the decision of Minister for Digital Transformation. As you can see here, we would like to have a comprehensive review of Priority plan and other areas.
In addition, there were working groups last year on topics such as digital strategy and My Number, and we would like to continue to establish working groups to consider individual topics.
That's all for the promotion system.
Then, could you please take a look at Material 2 "Operation Guidelines (Draft) of the digital society Concept Conference"?
As the guidelines for the operation of this meeting, I would like to make a decision by the chairman and decide on the disclosure of the proceedings and materials for the meeting. Thank you very much.
If you don't mind, I would also like to explain Material 3 "History and other matters to date." Please give me the materials.
First of all, in regard to the "History of digital reform to Date," Prime Minister Suga instructed us to launch and establish Digital Agency last September. During that time, Mr. Murai chaired the Working Group on digital reform Related Bills and others, and based on that, the Cabinet decided on the basic policies, and a total of six digital reform related bills, including the Basic Act, the Establishment Act, and four others, were approved by the Cabinet, submitted to the Diet, and passed.
In addition, as an alternative to the IT Strategy, a Cabinet decision was made in June in the form of Pre Priority plan for Digital Agency, and Digital Agency was established on September 1.
Please take the next page.
This is the "Vision digital society Aims for," which I just mentioned. Last year, the Working Group on Bills Concerning digital reform, chaired by Mr. Murai, established the Vision. In addition, as you can see below in three different colors, the Working Group presented the specific type of society it aims for.
Please take the next page.
Similarly, the Government of Japan has established and presented ten principles as the "Basic Principles for Forming digital society." These principles are incorporated in the form of the basic philosophy of the Basic Act on digital society Formation and the basic concept for implementing the basic measures.
Please go to the next page.
After the Digital Agency bills were enacted, Priority plan was formulated in June as a pre-Okinawa Priority plan, as I mentioned earlier. This is the overall picture.
It says "Digital Agency is goal," but in the orange area in the middle, it says "(ii) Development and Dissemination of Common Functions of digital society," and below that, it says "(iii) Comprehensive Data Strategy." Based on this, as you can see at the top, the central government, local government, semi-public sector, and private sector will be the entities responsible for system development, so the overall picture is that Digital Agency will proceed while being aware of the UI and UX of the point of contact with the people. Digital Agency
On the right side, as important points in making the Pre Priority plan, (iv) human resource development, (v) technology regulatory reform, (vi) accessibility, and (vii) securing security are also positioned as important fields.
Please go to the next page.
As I mentioned earlier, the Council for the Promotion of a Digital Society Summit will be held on September 6, following the inauguration of the Digital Agency Summit, and the Prime Minister has issued instructions to all ministers regarding the prioritization in planning Summit, which I will mention later. As I indicated at that time, the digital reform Summit will be held under the "Main Items for the Immediate Future."
On this page, there is "1. Promotion of digitalization in public service for the people," and the first part is, as you mentioned earlier, promotion of digitalization for prompt provision of benefits for the novel coronavirus, etc., and the lower part is promotion of My Number Card.
Please take the next page.
Another item in "1. Promoting public service digitalization to the people" is to standardize and unify the national and local business systems, and the same applies to Kasumigaseki.
Please go to the next page.
With regard to "2. Promotion of digitalization in People's Lives," as you mentioned earlier, we will lead digitalization in the fields of medical care, education, and disaster risk management together with each ministry.
Please take the next page.
In addition, from the industrial side, we will work on infrastructure, Minister in charge of Administrative Reform Okada, and human resource development.
Please take the next page.
"4. Realization of a digital society where no one is left behind."
Please take the next page.
The blue part is Pre Priority plan, which I mentioned earlier. We formulated them in June. They are not conventional IT strategies, but Pre Priority plan in anticipation of Digital Agency.
Although "New Priority plan" is written in red, the Basic Act on the Formation of digital society states that a Priority plan will be created under Digital Agency, so the creation of this Priority plan is the Issue for the future.
As stated in the second part, I would like to make it easier to understand that we will integrate the Digital Government Action Plan and the Pre - Priority plan Action Plan, which were the IT Strategy and the Digigaba Action Plan until now, into one for digital reform, while also taking into account the "Current Main Items for Priority plan" and other matters that were presented at the Ministerial Meeting that I just mentioned. Based on these points, as well as the opinions of the members today, we would like to formulate a Priority plan toward the end of this year.
That's all from me.
Chairman Murai: .
So, as the third item on the agenda, I would like to ask for your opinions on how we should change this country. Could you please show me the new promotion system on page 2 of Material 1?
The meeting you are attending today is this one on the top right.
On the left side is a meeting in which all Cabinet members are participating. On the left side, persons in charge of each ministry and agency mainly work under Chief Officer of the Digital Agency, so to speak. In other words, I would like you to recognize where you are. Since the head of the Digi-Agency itself is the Prime Minister, I believe that the relationship between the IT Strategic Headquarters and experts is the closest to what we have seen so far.
In other words, I would like to ask all of you to make a statement at this meeting. This will be the most senior statement within the Digi-cho, and based on that, the matters explained earlier will be decided.
There are two on the bottom of the box on the right, and the things that have been there until now are written here. There are some parts that I would like to think about from now on, such as what to do with them and what to move under them, so I will not put pressure on them, but I understand that today I would like you to make a statement in this position in terms of the actual promotion system.
Then, I will go in the order I mentioned earlier, but please make it less than 3 minutes because of my schedule. Mr. Kawabe, please.
Kawabe Member: I'm Kawabe. Thank you all for your continued support.
I understand that it comes from the IT Federation and Z Holdings.
In short, today I would like to make a proposal to multiply the well-being of the people of Japan by incorporating data-driven approaches into Japan's policy formulation process and administration.
In it, I would like to explain the meaning of Yahoo's data-driven example.
In Yahoo Japan Corporation, the first Director of the Inoue-sha Shrine established the Personal Computer & Internet Service Company, and the second President Miyasaka, who is currently the Vice Governor of Tokyo Prefecture in charge of digital affairs, evolved it into the Smartphone Service Company. When I became President three years ago, I announced that I would aim to become a data-driven company.
This is a the Beginning of Things about what it was like for Yahoo Japan to become a data-driven company. In fact, in 2010, a Japanese version of a book titled "The Mathematics Determines Strategies" was published. The mayor of Inoue-sha Shrine at the time read this book and said that it was definitely better to do this, and that it was definitely better to include it in the company's structure and services. This book was distributed to senior executives. This is where the story began.
When I read it, the word Super Crunching comes up a lot. After all, what is now called deep learning was expressed by the word "Super Crunching" at that time. It has been repeatedly said that decision-making can be made clearly by using statistics such as regression analysis with a large amount of data and computing power, and we have rapidly introduced this into our company's systems and services.
When I was able to make a clear decision using the method of Super Crunching and deep learning, what axis was established that was different from the previous decision making? In 2019, a relatively recent book called "FACTFULNESS" was published, and what is written here exactly happened.
As long as human beings make decisions, there will be a lot of cognitive biases. In particular, as far as I can see from the outside, the process of forming politics and policies is full of bias, and I think that assumptions can be eliminated to a large extent. By eliminating bias by becoming data-driven and acting based on technology, I think that companies and governments will be able to move forward.
Then, what is data? Mr. Ataka, Chief Strategic Officer of Yahoo, is actively saying that it is abundant in quantity and variety, and that it can be obtained in real time, applied to very strong computing power, and applied to deep learning, so that various decisions can be made.
I believe it is important for cybersecurity to collect a large amount of this kind of data and make it data-driven, while paying attention to privacy in Digital Agency.
Then, how can data-driven policy formulation and administration benefit us? The benefits we have gained through corporate management and services include the following. There are two main benefits: efficiency and creativity increase.
When efficiency and optimizing are applied to policies, absolute calculation is performed by digitalization all policy data. Then, to put it bluntly, effective policies and ineffective policies can be seen at a glance. Therefore, I believe that efficiency will come by making digital decisions, such as adding a budget to effective policies and ending ineffective policies.
In addition, when such absolute calculation is performed, it is discovered that although causality is unknown, correlation is related to this data and this data, and this result and this result.
In our case, even if we do not identify the causal relationship, as long as there is a correlation, we apply it to services and use it to increase people's satisfaction. Therefore, we can increase such added value. In terms of academic research, we can create more fundamental value by pursuing the causal relationship of things that have a correlation, although we do not know the causal relationship. I think this should be done at the national level. This is the utility of data-driven.
This is what I would like to convey most. In the end, I am writing about what Japanese society should become through its effects. By applying customized policies to each and every person living in Japan, the well-being of each individual will be promoted. I believe that it is natural to apply these customized policies to each and every person.
If policies are decided on the basis of practicality in Super Crunching, policies will eventually be customized for each individual. This should be the biggest difference between analog uniform public service and digital personalized public service. Of course, there is no doubt that receiving public service that is the most comfortable or profitable for me rather than receiving uniform services will lead to the promotion of well-being of Japanese people. Therefore, I believe that this should be updated within three years or so. This is my recommendation 1.
With regard to Recommendation 2, I would like to briefly move on to a recommendation that the IT Federation should promote digitalization in Japanese society. In that context, I am talking about the promotion of teleworking, online elections, and online medical care. In particular, online medical care is as deeply related to teleworking in people's lives as teleworking is in the current COVID-19 pandemic and in terms of promoting the well-being of the people. I believe that this should be done and there is a strong sense of Issue.
Just on September 23, the Nikkei newspaper featured this on its front page. It said that online medical care has come out, and that medical fees have been given consideration to some extent amid the COVID-19 pandemic. However, after doing a lot of research, I don't know if the doctor doesn't want to do it or if we, the platform provider, are not doing enough, but in the end, an average of 900 yen is added, and it is a very strange situation that it is cheaper to go to a hospital.
Of course, in order to promote the well-being of the people, going to a hospital is the last resort, and if you can receive a medical care online in front of the hospital and find out your medical condition or get a prescription, your well-being will undoubtedly increase, and this can be done digitally, so I believe that it would be good for Digital Agency to support further progress in this area.
This is Recommendation 2, and I would like to make a proposal on the issue of the promotion of Internet medical care and prices.
In conclusion, the IT Federation held an event to celebrate the opening of Digital Agency the other day, and what I said in the panel discussion at that time was published in the Nikkei on September 20. This is more specific, so please refer to it.
That's all for my two recommendations. Thank you very much. I look forward to working with you in the future.
Chairman Murai: .
Thank you, Mr. Ikeda.
Member: I am Mr. Ikeda, Mayor of Miyakonojo City, Miyazaki, . Nice to meet you.
I have been participating in the Working Group since last year, and I look forward to your continued support.
Today, as the representative of the municipality closest to the people, I would like to make two recommendations.
The first is "building a society that is not aware of administrative procedures."
By simplifying administrative procedures, we aim to build a society in which the people are not aware of administrative procedures as special or difficult.
At the bottom of the document, we have attached a questionnaire to the citizens of this city on "Expectations for digitalization." There is a strong need to simplify administrative procedures.
According to a survey by "Everyone's Opinion" on Yahoo News, there are also high expectations for the simplification of administrative procedures, so I believe that digitalization in the administrative field is essential for building a society that feels digitalization. In other words, if administrative procedures can be made online at the same level as online shopping that people use on a daily basis, I believe that society will change greatly.
For example, in order to prevent the procedures for moving or death from being repeated multiple times, it is necessary to make it a one stop system, and I believe that we must realize this by standardizing the local government system, which we are currently working on earnestly.
In addition, it is also desirable for the administrative side to carefully examine the procedures, abolish unnecessary procedures, and provide a push-type service in which benefits are automatically provided to those who fall under the system without requiring procedures.
In the future, with Digital Agency as the control tower, while utilizing the knowledge of private sector, we would like to ask for securing digital human resources and financial considerations so that all local government can respond by fully listening to the opinions of local governments. For example, there is a problem of a shortage of digital human resources in local governments.
The second is "building a society in which local regions continue to shine."
Rural areas are greatly affected by population decline and declining birthrate and aging population, and various Issue are becoming apparent. However, this digital technology can remove distance restrictions, so I expect that an environment and system will be built in which people can do various jobs while in rural areas.
In addition, we will be able to secure opportunities to receive cutting-edge medical care and education online, and I believe that this will make it possible to make local areas more attractive.
In other words, we expect that the flow of people will change depending on the digitalization, and that by enabling new ways of working such as side jobs, advanced human resources will gather, and great possibilities and opportunities will be created in the countryside.
On the other hand, as is the case with this city, the current situation in the local government is that there are actually more local private sector companies that have not made much progress in digitalization than our local private sector. I think that is the current situation.
In that sense, we are promoting digitalization under the motto of "digitalization that leaves no one behind." I believe that how to involve SMEs in digitalization is a very important perspective.
That's all for my recommendation. Thank you very much.
Chairman Murai: .
Next, Mr. Ito, please.
Ito Member: I'm Ito. Nice to meet you.
My first thought is that open source, open standards, open architectures, and accessible design can provide diversity and inclusion that was never possible before.
As I recall, there is a definition that information is a difference that makes a difference, and in the end, many people of the same type are required to make things, but in the information society, information and power increase because there are various kinds of people. Until now, the same kind of people have been doing the same things using various protocols, and it was very inefficient, but when the protocols become the same, the architecture in which various kinds of people can have Interoperability is something that Digital Agency manipulates, so I don't think it will be so easy to change it, so I really have to do this from a five -, ten -, or 100-year perspective, so I think it will be difficult for the field, which is busy with more than 1,000 projects on a daily basis. At this conference, I think we really have to support a long-term architecture, and although it is a little difficult, we have to gradually move toward standardization. I think that will be one of the useful things.
I think it is globalization. In the information society, there has been a lot of globalization, but now information is being carried out in a completely different dimension from globalization. As is the case with the blockchain, there are various movements across countries.
In order to think about how Japan can contribute in this context and how it can be positioned uniquely in Japan, Japan must participate in global dialogues. It must also participate in various projects, such as policies and protocols. This is not only a matter of language, but also a matter of actually directing energy to the outside world. It is also necessary to have a system that accepts various things from the outside world, such as visas, and I think this is similar to the diversity I mentioned earlier.
For example, there is a term "neurodiversity," which refers to the diversity of the brain, including people with autism and people with disabilities. Looking at various countries, we can see that an increasing number of countries are actually making very effective use of this diversity.
In Israel, for example, some autistic people are very good at pattern recognition, so it is difficult for ordinary people to get this form of pattern recognition. The government takes care of watching satellite images, and there are special units of mostly autistic people in Israeli units, who thoroughly recruit and nurture them, and then they enter society properly.
In the United States, Elon Musk himself has Asperger Syndrome, three of his children have autism, and there are many autistic leaders in the United States. In this information society, we can leverage the strengths of these people, so I think it is a great opportunity.
These two points are my main points. Both standardization and globalisation are very important in cybersecurity, not only for the military, but also for the police and the economy. It is very necessary to set up capabilities here, but although I say that we must do this properly on a global basis, there is a lack of speed, and there is a box in the Digi-cho, so I think we should do this properly.
That's all.
Chairman Murai: .
Then, Ota-san, please.
Mr. Ohta: In , I have two pages, but I also discuss digital in various places, and I often think that the stories do not mesh. It is often said that there are two mental walls. I think that it is necessary to make efforts to overcome the mental walls.
One is that, as Mr. Kawabe and Mr. Joi Ito have said, I believe that digital diversity, diversity, and inclusion can be brought about through digital. On the other hand, when we talk about digital, there is a barrier that we have to consider and discuss completely different things, such as the digital divide, what should be done about the elderly, and if the government says that no one will be left behind, it will be done in a fair and inefficient manner.
The second barrier is that everyone here has a positive image of digital, and this is good. That's why the government and companies are working hard. On the other hand, over the past five years, I think, when people hear the word "digital," they feel uneasy, dissatisfied, or afraid of a surveillance society. According to various awareness surveys not only in Japan but also globally, the number of people who are negative about the impact of digital on society 10 years later is increasing considerably.
As a counterpart to this, there is a move, which I am also working on, to take back technology from countries and companies through civic technology.
It is necessary to be aware of these two walls, and in that sense, the Ten Principles of the Vision at the beginning are very good, but it is usually completed after they are created. In order to eliminate these mental walls, I think it is necessary to track the progress of the Vision and the Ten Principles every year, and in that sense, the Digital Day is extremely important.
As for the second one, based on that, I think there are three chances.
One is in rural areas. What I discovered five years ago was that generations change every year. In sports and other industries, generations change every year. In small and medium-sized enterprises and primary industries, which are the center of rural areas, the age of the manager increases by one year every year. In 20 years, the age has increased by 19 years, and the Heisei ended with almost no generation change.
But it's going to happen all at once. It's not going to go up forever, so this is still a huge opportunity, and a chance once every 20 or 30 years is happening right now. Of course, at that time, digital will be used by small and medium-sized enterprises and agriculture.
If you use the term "metabolism" at this time, you will be warned very carefully. What I find by going to various places is that by using data, for example, the skills of elderly people who are making green peppers will be handed down. In that sense, one thing is that we need a foundation that will make use of the opportunity.
The second point is that, as stated in the Cabinet Office's materials on community development, there are no successful examples of smart cities in the world, and it is written that they are all the same. To go further, I will not give an example, but I think that they are failing in the world.
This is a small efficiency, and no one sells privacy just to improve traffic. Mr. Kitano said the same thing when you came, but it has become quite clear.
In that context, as I said earlier, amid concerns about the technology of tech rush, we will use technology to hack in a good sense. Whether it is education, medical care, or disaster risk management, there is a big chance to provide a foundation that will make this possible. That is the second point.
Lastly, I would like to talk about infrastructure. Unfortunately, this is a definite future. In less than 20 years, a super typhoon with a wind speed of more than 70 meters will come to Japan. As the days with a high temperature of more than 40 degrees Celsius continue, I think that roads, electric wires, and rivers will change.
When I talk about this, I think I'm talking about something hard. As I said in the data strategy, by using digital data, for example, by simulating how rivers will overflow when it rains or when there is a localized downpour, there is an opportunity in the technology of green infrastructure, which uses nature to control water rather than using concrete.
In order to do these three things, if data connections invests in and leads the base registry of personal and corporate IDs, Digital Agency, or data itself, I think there is a chance for society to change completely.
It's been a long time, but that's all.
Chairman Murai: .
Then, Mr. Kokuryo, please.
Country Member: I'm Kokuryo. Nice to meet you. I'm a business scholar.
The first of my recommendations is my hope that Digital Agency's efforts will be the head quarter of digitalization that utilizes the creativity of all human resources in the public and private sectors, and the central and local governments. I believe that this is a bit of a dangerous phase now. In standardization, there are standardization that utilizes creativity and standardization that takes in uniformity and kills creativity, so I believe that this is a phase in which we should be very careful not to make a mistake.
The point on the next slide is exactly the same as Ito-san mentioned earlier. Ito-san said that the interface I mean is a protocol. To match Ito-san's expression, what is necessary is that while standardizing the protocol, it is important to make the system part into a form in which various things devised by various people are connected more and more. On the other hand, if you push the system, creativity will die, so I think it is better to be careful so that Digital Agency does not become so.
Now is a great opportunity for vertical systems to be accommodated in the cloud more and more. In this situation, various modules made into microservices are organically connected. By doing so, all sites can participate in development. I think it is a phase where we should create such an architecture and give everyone a dream.
The following figure is a picture of it.
Recommendation 2 may be a little bold here, but the government is fine with public service's wholesale. I brought it here because I thought you might get angry with me for saying too much, but I think it is good to have a clear idea that UI and UX can be done by private sector.
When I think about it that way, the reason why the administrative system is so important now is that it has become a bottleneck when private sector wants to go further. I can say a lot only about taxes, but it will be 40 minutes, so I will pass it.
If I think in this way, I think that what is very important and lacking in order to provide the perfect service for each person by aggregating various administrative services on the private sector side and showing them in various ways is what is called the "public service Catalog."
If it is a product from private sector, the number is always attached to the catalog. But the government doesn't have it. So, we can't aggregate across local government and compare them horizontally. To put it in perspective, we can't compare one city with another on Kakaku. com to see which city is superior. I think it is important to be able to do that. Along with the base registry, I think this is the pot.
Third, as Ito-san said earlier, it is OK to emphasize in-house production, but more importantly, it is important to take in good things from all over the world. For the protocol and interface parts, as well as the service catalog and ID parts, we should be fully aware of internationality, and be able to quickly introduce the best tools in the world to any local government, so that we can adapt them a little. Let's value internationality.
That's all.
Chairman Murai: .
Then, Koshizuka-san, please.
Koshizuka Member: I'm Koshizuka from University of Tokyo.
The topic I received was quite a big story about "how to change the country digitally," and I have put a lot of effort into it, but I would like you to listen to it with that in mind.
At first, it's about how to change this country digitally, and I think it's an idea and philosophy.
First of all, as a form of country, I think it aims to be an autonomous distributed society, although it is a common story and a common phrase. I think we are seeing various things internationally in response to the novel coronavirus, but I think it is a society in which each country shares information and data, analyzes, analyzes, and makes decisions on its own, and autonomously cooperates, dialogues, and collaborates without being divided. I think that is the form of digital society that we will show the world.
By doing so, as I mentioned earlier, in addition to the economy, what is important is to aim for a society that achieves both the well-being of the people and, more recently, values such as carbon neutrality and social morals such as the SDGs. I believe that this is extremely important as a top executive, and this is my first recommendation.
There are so many things to do in digital, and I have listed many of them, but after this, I would like to make two recommendations.
The first is the establishment of a Japanese government operating system called Digital Government Architecture. As other members of the Council have already mentioned, I believe that Architecture should create a small and large basic framework and platform for a new government.
Now, a large number of digital measures are being implemented on-going, and I think it is important to first build a solid digital government architecture and promote DX in the administration, rather than letting them fall apart.
In addition, for that purpose, as Mr. Kokuryo mentioned earlier, I believe it is important to realize an administrative platform system, which I call the "Japanese government OS," in which basic administrative functions are properly menued, standardized, and provided.
To be more specific, I believe that NIST, like the one in the U.S., is extremely important, and I believe that it is extremely important to properly manage and operate national digital standards and lead digital society.
Finally, in terms of the realization of a data-driven society, the common thing in the digital field today is, of course, data. Now, the next generation of data infrastructure is in the midst of international competition, in which Europe, the United States, China, and India are all doing it. Japan must participate in this competition and survive. I believe that such a data infrastructure is the core and foundation of the Japanese government's operating system.
In terms of what we aim to achieve through data in cooperation with the world, I believe it is also important to promote innovation, aim for zero carbon emissions through green by data, and contribute to national resilience and disaster response as adaptation measures to climate change.
With the aim of realizing an inter-field data connections and a data trading market, industry, government, and academia are making all-out efforts to work on DataEX and a next-generation data platform. I think we should realize the concept of DFFT by linking siloed data.
We established the Data Society Promotion Council in April this year. We will utilize these materials, national projects, and the results of SIP, and through international cooperation, we will ultimately establish a global standard for free, safe, and reliable data distribution on the earth, not only in Japan, but also in cooperation with the rest of the world. I believe it is important for Japan to make a strong contribution to this.
That's all.
Chairman Murai: .
Natsuno-san, please.
Natsuno Member: I'm Natsuno .
First of all, I think it is important to create an on-line based society. We are doing various things, such as eliminating paper, to make it digital by all means, but I think it is important to be able to do various things online.
As you saw in the materials earlier, the My Number is now widely used by all Japanese people. Even though many things can be done using the My Number, there are still people in the government who think that the spread of the card is important.
Of course, it is fine if there are things that can only be done with a card, but if you use your existing My Number, you can do many things. However, the fact that physical cards are still being talked about blindly is probably due to a misunderstanding that you do not yet understand the importance of an online-based society. It is important to be online, and I think one important point is that whatever can be done online should be done online.
The other is UX. Government and administrative procedures are really hard to understand. Moreover, when it comes to sites, UX is not emphasized at all because people don't really know where to enter what, or they have to enter unnecessary data, or their postal code doesn't show their address right away.
It is very important to achieve compatibility with security, but if it is not used, it will be meaningless. Therefore, I think it is important to realize UX optimization that is completely user-oriented.
Finally, the default is digital. If we do not change the idea to do it digitally, do it normally, and leave documents or such for those who cannot use it, I think there are many approaches in which we say that what we are doing is in principle written or face-to-face, and by the way, digital is also OK. However, if we do not change the idea to digital and have face-to-face or written for those who cannot do it, I think the efficiency will not work at all, such as requiring prior permission to become digital.
Based on these three, I think it is important to determine the design and specifications of all services.
Since I am the chairman of the regulatory reform Promotion Council, I would like to operate the Digital Working Group of the regulatory reform Promotion Council and Digital Agency in an integrated manner. We would like to promote mutual exchange, including the Secretariat, and also, we are actually holding a Digital Working Group behind the Council, and we would like to promote digital as a whole. Thank you very much.
That's all.
Chairman Murai: .
Noda-san, please.
Member: I am Mr. Noda of Veolia Japan. This is my first time to participate in this event. Thank you very much.
I am not a digital expert, but I would like to make two recommendations based on my own experience.
First of all, Recommendation 1 is to accelerate the transition to a decarbonized society and a circular economy through digital.
I feel that DX and GX are often discussed as separate policies. However, the creation of a decarbonized society, especially transition into a circular economy society, cannot be realized without digital technologies such as IoT, AI, big data, and blockchains.
In Europe, policies are decided by linking DX and GX. Growth strategies are being formulated. For example, in the EU, there is a recent move called product passports. This digitalization allows consumers to see information such as the place of origin of the product, what the raw materials are, the possibility of repair, the possibility of recycling, the possibility of upcycle in recycling, and the treatment of disposal at the end of the product life.
Through these efforts, we will realize a new recycling-based economic model that reduces waste and recycles resources by encouraging green and resource-efficient purchasing behavior, product use, and longer product life.
For example, visualizing CO2 emissions data over the life cycle can also contribute to the realization of a decarbonized society.
In any case, digitalization is not the goal, but is positioned as a transition for a circular economy and an enabler for creating a decarbonized society.
In light of the fact that Japan is a country without resources and is a producer of goods, it is becoming difficult to secure rare resources around the world, and prices are rising. From the perspective of how to decouple resource constraints and economic growth, I believe that a circular economy is extremely important. From this perspective, I would like to expect the promotion of policies such as digital technical assistance and infrastructure development as catalysts for accelerating the GX and the transition to a circular economy. This is my first question.
My second point is that we will use digital technology to build public participatory open government. In building digital society, how will we involve the people? How will we empower the people so that they can easily participate in policy formation? I think this concept of open government is very important.
I myself used to be in the field of local administration. Citizens really have various ideas, various opinions, and wisdom. However, the majority of citizens are silent, and their voices hardly reach the administration. There was a very big dilemma that we had to listen to the opinions of a limited number of citizens and decide on policies.
In recent years, local local government have been short of financial resources and human resources. If there were a mechanism in which citizens can participate in solving public service problems and Issue problems in society by using digital and technology, I believe that better policies and area would be born.
It is important for citizens to use the Internet and social media to deliver their opinions to the government. It is also important to participate in development in public service. Beyond that, I think it is very desirable to have a society in which citizens are connected to each other horizontally through digital networks, and citizens think about various problems themselves and various activities are born.
To this end, the government should be open about what kind of social Issue it has and what it is worried about. By knowing the Issue, citizens will develop a sense of problem, become interested in administrative matters, and connect with each other to create activities and propose ideas to the government.
I believe that area should be created by the hands of citizens, and Professor Koshizuka talked about a distributed society earlier, and I think that is really true. I hope that digitalization will be promoted as such a foundation.
That's all.
Chairman Murai: .
Then, Mr. Hirai, please go ahead.
Hirai Member: Thank you, .
I would like to make three recommendations today in order to aim for a digital society that does not leave anyone behind and a human-friendly digital society.
First, as you just mentioned, there are various relationships between the area, the national government, and the central government, but it is a common opinion in the Governors' Association that we would like to see the digital divide and regional disparities eliminated. It is very important for regional revitalization and the spread of a decentralized society, and I think that our taste has deepened due to the novel coronavirus. Everyone is beginning to realize that they can telework. I think now is the time.
As it is written there, I believe that we can expand the creation of a decentralized national land using digital technology. In addition, the urban DX model is certainly effective, but I believe that we must also consider the local model.
For example, we are doing connected cars in Tottori prefecture, and public office is doing something like walking with a ICT to the eaves like this. I may be able to introduce it to you again in the future.
In that sense, I would like to emphasize that the last mile is very important, and I would like to encourage you to consider digital infrastructure.
It's also about human resources, and as you mentioned earlier about the elderly, I think that will be one of the elements from now on. I think it's about how we can bring everyone in.
I am going to go to the next recommendation. Please show me the next page.
In the next proposal, we are doing things in various ways in terms of digital benefits, but I would like to briefly explain one example from Tottori Prefecture.
In Tottori prefecture, municipalities and the prefecture have established the local government ICT Cooperation Promotion Council, and so to speak, Government Cloud is taking the lead. As you can see below, there are various works in the school. For example, it aims to be a project that summarizes the attendance book, the school diary, the creation of teaching materials, and so on, and it standardizes the school administration. The work of the school has been standardized, and the work has been unified in all municipalities. With this, we have achieved a considerable efficiency. We have reduced the work time by about 150 hours a year, and the joint development has been reduced by 1.25 billion yen.
As you can see at the bottom, in this sense, Tottori Prefecture and the municipalities made it easier for school work and reduced the overtime work of school teachers.
What I wanted to say is that in order to create a society in which everyone can enjoy the benefits of digital technology, it is necessary to make such efforts. It is necessary to change various jobs. In that sense, in order to improve the user interface and user experience, it is necessary to create various services in common, both nationally and locally, and in cooperation with municipalities. It is necessary to co-create these services.
Professor Kokuryo mentioned earlier that too much uniformity can kill creativeness, and I believe that there is such a thing, and on the other hand, if possible, we can create a joint platform with such a group of area.
As you can see at the bottom, I believe it is necessary to aim for a Government Cloud in which regional business operators can play an active role so that such a platform will be created and a major central business operator will not become a monopoly. In addition, I believe that a forum for national and local consultations is also necessary.
I would like to say one thing that is different about an unbiased and fair digital society. Right now, we are in charge of the novel coronavirus, and there are various kinds of online abuse and defamation. Only a few people are doing such things. I think we must properly face these kinds of things.
In addition, AI will be developed in the future, but biases will be introduced into data and algorithms, which may cause the world to move. This may cause social divisions.
In that sense, I believe that it is also necessary to promote digital society as an issue of media literacy, a defense against violations of human rights, and a consultation window, so I have included this in my proposals.
That's all. Thank you.
Chairman Murai: .
Then, Mr. Mikitani, please go ahead.
Mikitani Member: , It's been a long time.
I would like to enter from page 4 of the material.
Basically, digital data strategies are near Li Yi call growth strategies. Moderna is also using AI in development, and automobiles, materials industries, construction, and agriculture. In particular, banks, the system of a certain bank is a big problem now, but the system department has only a few percent of all employees. However, about half of foreign financial institutions are engineers. Therefore, I think that all companies should basically be considered IT companies or quasi-IT companies.
In this context, the New Economy Federation has proposed a strategy called "Innovate Japan." Japan is overwhelmingly behind. I think what we do when we are behind is to imitate the leader. Then, where Japan's sources of profit are finance, IP, manufacturing, and resources.
Then, how can we make money in finance? We call Japan a financial country, but the listing standards are very rigid, and only common shares can be listed, and there are no SPACs. In other words, the source of entrepreneurs and innovation has not become innovator friendly. I think it is a chance to attract people from around the world, but the individual income tax is too high and no one is coming.
Also, in terms of manufacturing, there is a complete lack of human resources. English education is also completely behind. As for resources, there are not that many. So, I think we have no choice but to make the most of travel resources. And how to reduce energy costs is extremely important.
As you can see on page 9, a report entitled "Innovate America" was produced in the United States in 2004. In that report, I believe we must set forth a vision of fundamental social structural reform.
If you go to page 10, the most important issue is that there are various problems such as COCOA in the government, but the number of engineers and innovators is definitely insufficient.
This was in 2017, but 15 of the top 30 companies in the United States were established by first - and second generation immigrants. I don't think it would be possible to bring in only highly skilled people. Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos are basically second - and third generation immigrants, so entrepreneurs and innovators must have a hungry spirit. How do you promote immigration?
There is a critical shortage of engineers, not just innovators. Only Japanese are participating in this conference. The top engineers may be quite international, but as it is written here, basically only 60000 Japanese computer science majors graduate each year.
However, in terms of system engineering, India has 1.7 million people a year. While there are millions of people in the world, Japan has only 60000 people. It is impossible, so it is necessary to open the country and recruit more and more top engineers. In addition, I think that how to advance immigration policies, not limited to top engineers, is a major point of the digital strategy.
When I go to most Silicon Valley companies, whether they are Sundar Pichai or Satya Nadella, they are basically the children of immigrants. Even in the United States, there are almost no engineers, so I think Japan's digital strategy will fail unless Japan can implement an immigration policy.
On the other hand, if the administration proceeds with digitalization, it will become a double cost in the name of digitalization, and I think that the cost will further increase and become fat. So, how exactly will digitalization be carried out? The Act on the Formation and Improvement of digital society Relations provides for blanket measures for digitalization in administrative proceduer, but analog principles remain in the private sector, making it a double standard. As Mr. Kawabe mentioned earlier, I feel that online medical consultation is also recognized for the time being, but it has become a mere shell, and that the general principle is OK, and the detailed principle is NO, which is what Kasumigaseki is good at, so I think it is necessary to consider specific blanket measures for the abolition of the analog principles.
That said, to be honest, I don't think they will say anything. Another proposal is that we should identify all the law where the analog principles remain, visualize why the analog principles are not abolished, and set a deadline for specific discussions on the advisability of abolishing the analog principles.
At that time, I would like to ask you to establish the DX Legislation Bureau, which will assess whether all new laws are DX-like and scrutinize them, and proceed with digitalization.
Actually, the number of regulation is increasing rapidly. After all, we should visualize the cost of regulation. For example, in the United Kingdom, it is ONE IN THREE OUT. If we make one regulation, we should make three. So, we are reducing the cost of regulation by about 1.5 trillion yen from 10 billion pounds per year.
Each country is doing this, but the Japanese government will expand and become a larger government, so we must consider how to proceed with the elimination of regulation. I believe that we should issue specific indicators. If digitalization is to be implemented, there will be digital bills and paper bills, and Dondonyaki will grow.
As for the base registry, as Dr. Kokuryo mentioned, including in KYC, it is a problem that it is an abnormal duplication of work and data is scattered around, so I think it would be good for the government to do this properly, and in that case, it is necessary to open the API to private sector.
However, there is talk of personal data conservation here, and I think that it will happen that the base registry will not be used even though it has been maintained. So, if we do not decide what to do first and then maintain the base registry, I think that it will end up not being used even though it has been built.
Finally, the ROK passed a law that cuts into the so-called Apple tax and Google tax. I think it is shameful for Japan, but in the app market, which is about 2 trillion yen, Google and Apple impose a 30% "tax" on content and games, and neither politicians nor officials do anything about it. What is this? Even when I talk to them, they say, "That could happen, right?" and there is no response at all. Therefore, I believe that since other countries have taken the lead in this matter, Japan is trying to join them, but I would like Japan to take a firm stance and work on this issue.
But the bottom line is that it's basically a baseball field with nine players, but in Japan, it's like there are only two engineers to advance it. We have to think about what to do then, and this is a distant and very close problem, including the matter of bringing more and more immigrants to Japan.
By the way, Rakuten Mobile was the first company in the world to develop full virtualization technology, but 90% of its engineers are foreign nationals. I am not sure that national public servants must be Japanese, but I am convinced that DX will never succeed without internationalization, so I would like to see it clearly stated.
That's all.
Chairman Murai: .
Thank you, Mr. Wakamiya.
Wakamiya Member: I am Wakamiya. My recommendation 1 is that I would like to make Japan a country where the level of happiness of the people is high and the people can realize that they were glad to live in this era. The purpose of my recommendation is that I would like to build a society that contributes to the improvement of the level of happiness of the people by making full use of technology that will be possible in the future, as well as what can be done now, in accordance with the 100-year life age, in which the current systems basically follow the 50-year life age.
To enhance well-being, imagine leisure, for example, by the efficiency of work and learning, and make institutions and social structures flexible and diverse.
We will create a society in which social life and education are not limited to one lane roads, but are flexible, diverse and can be redone.
A society in which people can choose from a variety of options according to their life stage, from a fixed lifestyle to a life like a digital nomad.
A society where people interact with many people and make friends. With the spread of high-quality and conscientious "SNS," I would like to be able to actively interact with people who have the same ideas, the same values, and the same problems by activating interaction with people from overseas. Of course, I think it will be easier to listen to the opinions of people with different values.
Disabled people and the elderly, especially the elderly, are reluctant to evacuate. There is a fear that they will be treated coldly. However, as shown in the figure, even if an evacuation order is issued from a public relations car or the like in the rain or wind, it is difficult to hear it. Evacuation order information is delivered to people who have a mobile phone or a smartphone, but evacuation orders and the like are not delivered to people who have a fixed phone in the past. Therefore, it is difficult to confirm whether or not an digitalization has been received. And many of them are the elderly. The elderly are the first to know that an evacuation order has been issued.
Then, what I thought about what I should do is, for example, a elderly person living alone who is 75 years old or older and lives on the first floor receives emails all at once. And what do you want to do? When I say that I want to go to shelter, I don't just say that you are really going to shelter. I also ask if you have a smartphone, if you have a mobile battery, and if you can check your location. If you don't know what GPS means and don't know what it means, call the number below. Then, a registered volunteer will explain to you. And if you are going, I think it is possible to give a warning, such as bringing a lot of medicine you are always taking, and to look for a shelter that is vacant and can be secured, and to show a map that tells you to go there automatically. So, I can cuddle up faster and more carefully than when I was using my hands.
Also, all the notifications from the citizens to the public office of the city will go there. Because of the merger of the town and village, information that does not reach every corner of the town will come from various people. For example, information such as there is a danger of falling rocks because pebbles are falling down will come in, and such information can be shared between the public office of the city, the fire department, the police, and so on. I think you can think about such a thing.
The other is that from now on, it will be called self-help, mutual assistance, and public assistance, but it will be no good to just chant the title of "mutual assistance, mutual assistance." So, what we should do is, each citizen registers what he or she can do and what time period he or she can do, and we create a database of all of this. When a need arises, we can find someone who will respond to our need.
In this way, I would like you to know that we will not be treated coldly by digitalization, but will be able to support you more individually and gently than ever before. I think that spreading such a thing by word of mouth will be the advertisement for the digital debut of the elderly in the future.
In addition, regarding Recommendation 2, I would like to make Japan a country with digital conferences, including local residents' associations and neighborhood associations. Many conferences, which can be said to be the liver of democracy, have become a mere shell. By making it possible for many people to easily participate in these conferences by digitalization, etc., and by activating the conferences, having a lot of discussion and debating, we can make area more active and transparent. And we can increase the degree of interest in the groups of the members.
That's all for my suggestion.
Chairman Murai: .
After listening to what you have said, I would like to hear your opinions again for the next time, so please let me tell you that.
First of all, Mr. Mikitani said that there are no engineers in this country, and that there are many in Digital Agency. I think that Digital Agency has the most engineers in Kasumigaseki, and I think that Rakuten is responsible for that.
The next question is, both Ikeda-san and Hirai-san are there, but there are various levels of local local government, aren't there? I think that Mr. Kawabe's story and Mr. Noda's story are the same, but this may be all about autonomous dispersion.
In that case, it would be difficult to create a system in which people of different levels would work together to think about the future of this country. I think Mr. Koshizuka said that digital society would be able to do this, but I think Digital Agency could create such a system. In other words, Digital Agency talks only about connecting vertical divisions horizontally from the time of preparation. However, it is important to determine whether it can really be done and how it can be done.
Then, this is the same as what I said earlier, that the Japanese government OS cannot be done P2P. In other words, the necessary components will be gathered, and the engineers and digital experts will be there, and a certain deadline will be set, a goal will be set, and it will be achieved. Can't we create such a team ad-hoc? If it can be done by Kasumigaseki, that is, Digital Agency Lead, then I think it will be possible to decide Issue, decide the lineup, and have all public office in charge participate, and move them with responsibility.
When I thought that this was called a "project" in the world, I stopped using the word "project" because it is used here and there, and said the Digital Agency's Commission, with a symbol mark of DAC.
Then, commissions are to be committed, so we need to set a deadline, and we need a public office in Kasumigaseki, a local local government somewhere, a private sector, and a digital expert. We need to create such a unit ad hoc, and as Mr. Natsuno mentioned earlier, we need to break the wall with the project. Listening to everyone's stories, I thought that it would be good to create such a unit at the Digi-cho.
Therefore, it would be good if we could do that. In addition, there are expectations that private sector and officials will be able to work together to address the shortage of engineers and experts, and that a new mechanism can be created because it is a new public office. Therefore, I would like you to consider the DAC.
In addition, various people have pointed out the issues of international cooperation and individual participation, and I believe that these issues can be addressed through the DAC projects mentioned earlier.
Personally, the construction of the Internet from space is developing very much, and the impact of that will be seen here and there. I think this is also DAC, and I think it would be good if we could create a team for each agenda. I broke the rules of the chairman and told him that I wanted him to consider such a thing. But the time has passed beautifully, so I would like to finish with this. However, as I said, I think I received a lot of very good stories from everyone. Thank you very much.
Well, it's the scheduled time, so I'd like to return it to the office. Thank you.
Secretariat: In , the Secretariat will be the last to contact you.
The materials and minutes of the plenary session will be disclosed on the Digital Agency website. In addition, a press briefing will be held later today. The minutes will be announced after confirmation by all of you at a later date.
October 10 and 11 are scheduled to be Digital Days. With the concept of "Let's give away digital," we are working to encourage everyone to take action, and many companies and organizations have supported us. I would like to take this opportunity to introduce you.
Last but not least, the next meeting is scheduled for mid-to-late October. We will contact you again to adjust the schedule. Thank you very much.
That's all.
Chairman Murai: .
Then, at the closing of the meeting, I would like to receive a greeting from Mr. Ishikura of Chief Officer of the Digital Agency. Thank you.
Chief Officer of the Digital Agency, Ishikura: Thank you for 's "digital society Concept Conference (1st)."
I'm Ishikura. I have a Chief Officer of the Digital Agency. Nice to meet you.
Today's stories were all very interesting, and there were many things that I thought were so. The story that left the biggest impression on me was "Kokusai." With the world as the starting point, let's copy everything that is good, and whatever we do, it will be the world.
I also thought that it was digital to customize, because everyone has different needs, and it was very impressive.
I think digital is a way to take advantage of creativity and make the possibilities so limitless, so it was very encouraging to hear such a story.
Finally, I heard about the DAC Digital Agency Commission. It has tremendous potential, and I thought it would be the right thing to do if we gathered good people from around the world, including immigrants, and actually do it. We set a deadline, clarify the desired results, and do it in the form of the DAC.
Thank you very much for your very impressive and useful time.
Chairman Murai: .
With that being said, I would like to conclude today's "digital society Concept Conference." Thank you very much for taking the time to attend.
Minister for Digital Transformation Hirai: Thank you very much, Can I add something to the end?
Chairman Murai: , you are back. I'm sorry.
Minister for Digital Transformation Hirai: Thank you very much, , I'm sorry I left you in the middle.
This meeting consists of 12 people, but depending on the project, you and other people can be invited here as an ad hoc meeting. I think it is good to start the meeting by sharing your awareness of the problem like today, but I think it is of course necessary to plan to hold the meeting in depth by setting a theme. Therefore, rather than doing this and that, I think it is very important to hold the meeting with a narrow theme, so I would like you to consider it again.
Chairman Murai: Is it possible for the minister in charge to attend at that time?
Minister for Digital Transformation Hirai: Thank you very much, .
Chairman Murai: .
Chairman Murai: Is there anything else you would like to ask?
Well, thank you very much.
Minister for Digital Transformation Hirai: Thank you very much, .