Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee Working Group (9th)

Overview

Date and time: Thursday, May 12, 2022 (2022) from 10:00 to 12:00
Location: Online
Agenda:
1. Opening
2. Proceedings
  1. Hearing from related ministries and agencies about visual inspection regulation and regular inspection regulation
  2. Exchange of opinions
3. Adjournment

Materials

Minutes, etc.

Date

Thursday, May 12, 2022 (2022), from 10:00 to 12:00

Location

Online Meetings

Attendees

Chairman

Fumiaki Kobayashi, Senior Vice-

Members

Tatsuhiko Inadani (Professor, Graduate School of Law, Kyoto University)
Katsuya Uenoyama (President of PKSHA Technology, Inc.)
Takafumi Ochiai (Attorney at law, Atsumi & Sakai, Foreign Law Joint Enterprise)
Akiko Sugawara (Managing Director and Head of Policy Planning, Keizai Doyukai)
Katsunori Nemoto (Senior Managing Director, Japan Business Federation)
Masakazu Masushima (Attorney-at-Law, Mori Hamada & Matsumoto)

Minutes

Secretariat (Takamatsu): Opening of the 9th "Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee Working Group"

This time, members are invited to participate online.

As for the attendance status of the members today, Mr. Yasune is absent due to personal reasons.

In addition, Nemoto members are scheduled to leave in the middle of the course.

In addition, relevant ministries and agencies will participate in the second and subsequent agenda items on a rotating basis.

Let's get down to business today.

Due to the absence of member Annen today, Mr. Takamatsu will be handling the proceedings. Thank you very much.

As for today's agenda, we would like to hear your opinions after explaining the status of coordination of the categories of "visual inspection and on-site inspection" and "regular inspection" at the beginning. In addition, I would like to consult with you again at the end, but the Secretariat would like you to discuss this agenda in private.

After that, we will hear from each ministry and agency. The first will be an inspection by a specified principal operator to prevent industrial accidents. The second will be a periodic inspection at the hot spring collection site. The third will be the deployment of guards related to the blasting of explosives.

[The status of adjustment of "visual inspection / on-site inspection" and "regular inspection" is not disclosed.]

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

Regarding the first question, it is a patrol by a specified principal employer to prevent industrial accidents.

I would like to have an explanation from Mr. Kamaishi, Manager of the Safety Division, Safety and Health Department, Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare Labour Standards Bureau. Nice to meet you.

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare Labour Standards Bureau. Nice to meet you.

Based on the materials in front of you, I would like to explain about the inspection of the work place by the specified principal employer.

Regarding "1. Applicable law" on page 2, the specified principal employer is a main contractor in the construction industry, etc. who contracts a part of the work at one place to a contractor. In order to prevent industrial accidents due to the workers of the main contractor and related contractors working together, necessary measures such as the establishment and operation of a consultation organization must be taken. Inspection of the work place is specified in Article 30, Paragraph 1, Item 3 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act. The frequency is specified as at least once every work day in Article 637, Paragraph 1 of the Ordinance on Industrial Safety and Health.

Regarding "2. Purpose, Background, and Purpose of regulation" on page 3, there is a background that in the construction and shipbuilding industries, workers from multiple contractors often work together in the same place under a multi-layered contract, and there have been examples of work-related accidents due to insufficient communication and coordination. As explained on page 1, the specified principal employer must take necessary measures to prevent risks due to mixed work.

The purpose of the patrol in the measures is to confirm whether communication and adjustment between operations are properly performed, and whether machinery and equipment buildings in the work place are kept safe. The purpose is also to take necessary measures for improvement if there is an unsafe operation or a dangerous situation.

"3. Outline of the System" on page 4 shows an overview of the system of the Industrial Safety and Health Act. The main premise is that business operators must ensure the safety and health of workers in the workplace. For this reason, business operators are obliged to establish a safety and health management system and implement specific measures to prevent industrial accidents.

At the bottom, the safety and health management system and main specific measures in the construction industry are described, and labor standards inspectors visit the site to supervise and instruct whether these measures are properly implemented.

To explain in detail, the figure shown in the establishment of the safety and health management system is a safety and health management system for a construction site of a certain size or larger. For example, in the case of construction work of buildings such as steel structures, it is necessary for a specific principal employer to appoint a general safety and health manager and a principal safety and health manager at a site where the number of workers at the site, the employer, and the related contractors is 50 or more in total. Accordingly, the related contractors are required to appoint respective safety and health managers. Although sites of a size smaller than that are not required to appoint these persons, it is desirable to appoint a safety and health manager equivalent to them, and these safety and health officers will make an inspection.

Page 5 gives an example of the specific procedure for patrolling the work site. The situation at each construction site varies greatly. Therefore, the government does not uniformly indicate the procedure for patrolling in guidelines. However, the book "Specific Procedure for Safety Management Guidelines for Construction Sites by Principal Contractors" published by the Japan Construction Industry Industrial Safety and Health Association describes the specific procedure for patrolling and examples of inspection items.

First of all, regarding the important matters of the patrol, three points are listed: (1) confirmation of the status of communication and adjustment between operations, (2) correction and guidance of unsafe conditions and unsafe actions, and (3) grasp of the progress of construction.

In addition, it is necessary to provide on-the-spot guidance to ensure that related contractors are properly supervising and guiding their workers and to request improvements.

It is also necessary to record the results of the inspection in the construction log and reflect them in the safety process meeting the next day, and to give instructions in writing such as improvement instructions when making improvements.

The one on the right is an example of a combination of safety work instructions, a construction log, and a safety log. The part surrounded by the red dotted line is the inspection items for specific measures such as safety and health management at the site.

Page 6 is the current PHASE and the Issue for advancing the PHASE.

At present, it falls under PHASE1. As a Issue to promote this in PHASE2 and beyond, we believe that the main principle is not to cause a decline in the level of safety and health. To be specific, it is possible to obtain information equivalent to going directly to the site. In addition, we believe that it is possible to quickly take measures to prevent industrial accidents, such as being able to immediately stop work when an unsafe situation is confirmed.

In addition, regarding the future response plan, basically, we would like to hear opinions from industry organizations, collect information, and consider whether or not to implement it. As an example of digital utilization, remote information collection using wearable cameras, etc., and understanding of unsafe behavior using fixed point cameras and image recognition processing, etc., are considered. Whether or not to utilize them will also be considered in conjunction with the hearing.

That's all. Thank you.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

In relation to this matter, there have been requests from the business community for permission to conduct patrols remotely.

Please let us know if you have any comments or questions about the explanation you just gave.

Mr. Ochiai, please.

Ochiai Member:

Thank you for advancing the discussion. At the beginning of the discussion, I would like to ask about the matters confirmed during the patrol and what needs to be found during the patrol and lead to specific actions.

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the This patrol does not exist alone, but is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work carried out by specific principal operators. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed work. Article 30 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act states that this patrol is carried out as part of the overall safety and health management to prevent industrial accidents due to mixed organization organization

Ochiai Member: I understand. Thank you very much.

The specific content is that instructions were given to information linkages and industrial accident prevention measures, including various morning meetings and conferences, and confirmation is made as to whether the contents of the agreement are observed. What specific actions are required to be taken, what are required to be confirmed, and what measures are required to be taken? In addition, what are the specific contents of the instructions and the decisions made at the Conference organization, and what are the matters in particular that are focused on and monitored in the agreement?

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the Specifically, on page 5 of the document, "4. Examples of Specific Procedures," regarding examples of safety work instructions, as circled in red, whether meetings are held in the management system, whether signs are properly placed, whether off-limits measures are properly taken, whether lighting is properly placed in the lower part of the work environment, whether the work environment is properly lit, whether the work environment is organized, and whether there are any problems with the temporary facilities, etc., are to be observed.

Ochiai Member:
Regarding the items that you have just indicated, I believe that the items to be viewed in particular, such as making it possible to view images at the site, have been categorized to some extent. I believe that there are quite a few parts that can be confirmed by methods such as communication and web conferencing with people at the site without necessarily moving around, such as arranging cameras and the like so that they can be viewed to a certain extent. What specific points do you think cannot be confirmed?

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the

Ochiai Member: In fact, while placing a camera at a fixed point, I believe that it can be viewed by having people at the site send images using a camera, for example, or by holding a video conference. In the first place, I believe that it is impossible to force people to listen to what they say, whether in person or remotely, so I believe that it can be secured by appropriately sorting out the fact that it is a violation if they do not follow the instructions and orders, so I would like you to consider this point in the future.

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the . I would like to talk with the industry well and work on that.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): , please.

Member: I believe that the purpose of this patrol is to prevent accidents from occurring, and the goal is to prevent accidents by firmly issuing alerts to dangerous places and dangerous acts. I believe that the design is being conducted so that the level of safety required can be achieved by conducting a patrol once a day. In the first place, is the level of safety required here properly set? In addition, I believe that this is very linked to the scope of the roles and responsibilities of the safety manager. There are items in the document, but it seems that the level to be checked is not in this table. Is there such a level? For example, what is the illumination level? In other words, what is the safety standard required by the check by conducting a patrol once a day, and whether it is a judgment that the safety standard is secured by that?

In addition, it may be a mid - to long-term Issue, but as Dr. Ochiai told us earlier, we will make the content of the patrol more clear. This does not mean that the items will be clarified, but I predict that whether or not it will really lead to an accident will be based on our experience and knowledge. Are the items in line with it, or are the items unchanged from when they were first established? What is going on?

In fact, the advantages of using remote and IT-based wearable terminal are that images from time to time and alerts sent to the Main Safety and Health Manager are properly accumulated, and by analyzing them with AI, in the future, it will be possible to create a system in which AI will show you the items to be checked when you see the site, which will lead to efficiency. To that end, of course, it is important not to throw away the images of the wearable terminal that have been checked, but to create a mechanism to collect and analyze them properly. Please tell us whether you intend to consider this demonstration experiments by considering the security of the patrol, efficiency in the positive sense, and the elimination of the labor shortage.

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the once a day, in law it is said to be once a day or more, and I believe that it will be confirmed again if the situation at the site changes significantly.

As you said, it is necessary to clarify the items to be inspected. However, since the mandatory items stipulated in the Industrial Safety and Health law are enormous, it is difficult to write down all of them, and specific measures are surrounded by a large frame in the document. However, in order to see whether this is being done as a whole, the part surrounded by the red dotted line on page 5 of the document, such as the construction safety work instruction, is an example of writing down the main items that have many disasters. The characteristics of disasters vary depending on the type of construction site, so I think it is necessary for the operator to modify and use them properly.

In addition, regarding the instructions I received at the end, it is very important to collect the data by remote operation and analyze it with AI, and I think you are right, so I would like to include such a perspective when we consider it in the future.

Member: These items are not all checks specified by law, but major minimum checks are required.

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the That's right. Originally, we have to check whether all safety and health measures are being taken, but there are some difficult points to check all of them, and I think we are doing it by sticking to that.

Member: safety standards or levels are set to a certain level, rather than 100%?

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the You mentioned illumination earlier. In terms of illumination, the Industrial Safety and Health Regulations set a minimum illumination level depending on the density of work, such as rough work and dense work. You may bring an illumination meter to see if you have cleared the minimum level, but I think you will see if there are any violations of the law.

Member: In that case, you probably recognize that it is safer to use IT technology than to go around on a patrol and visual inspection.

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the I believe that there is a merit in which the safety of the site is further improved by using them in combination.

Member: I think these safety items are minimum, but the purpose is not to check them, so when I see whether it is really an effective safety assurance, I thought it would be good if you could more positively promote the use of digital technology, such as remote control, where there is a limit to human visual inspection.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): Masushima-sensei, please.

Masujima Member: Thank you very much for

There is a concept of connected workers, but using wearable devices, cameras, and voices, everyone works like a human Internet to maintain overall safety. If safety can be maintained, there is no need to check paper, and even if you come to patrol once a day, an accident may occur 30 minutes after you come, so it doesn't mean anything. This is an example of how to solve the problem by moving with this device, creating a network of people and a network of workers. If you understand this, I feel that you can support our current efforts in a more positive manner.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): . Mr. Inadani, please.

Member Inadani: Depending on the progress of the . One thing I wanted to say is that, as Dr. Masushima and Dr. Sugawara have just said, IoT and human approaches can be combined well, and it will lead to good efforts to improve overall safety.

Another is that I am not specialized in this field, so I may have misunderstood this. I thought that the principal operators were engaged in work coordination and that they would try to prevent any risks from arising in the course of that coordination. In that case, I would like to ask two questions. One is how many cases are there in which the principal actually pays compensation for damage in the event of an accident caused by a failure in coordination. Another is, for example, how many cases are there in which the principal actually pays compensation for damage in the event of a violation of a regulation to conduct a work patrol in the first place. I would like to know what sanctions are imposed in the case of a violation of this, and how effective they are. If that is effective to a certain extent, I feel that there is an incentive to make a efficiency and work hard. I would like to know what the relationship is like.

Kamaishi, Safety Manager: As you said in the first half of the , the main contractor undertakes one project from the original orderer and does it himself, but on the other hand, he subcontracts part of it to a related contractor. Since they coordinate well and proceed with the work smoothly, the main contractor is obligated to look at the entire site and manage safety and health. There is a penalty for this, and if it is violated, it will be fined.

We do not know how much compensation will be paid, but in most cases where an industrial accident occurs, there is a violation of some law, and among them, there is a case where the overall safety and health management was insufficient, and in such cases, appropriate sanctions will be imposed.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

It is time, so I would like to break off the discussion here. We have discussed that we will set a review policy for PHASE2, so I would like you to consider it based on your comments. Thank you.

Thank you very much to everyone at the Labor Standards Bureau of the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare. We will conclude the hearing for the first point.

My second question is about the periodic inspection at the hot spring collection site.

I would like to have an explanation from Mr. Kitabashi, Director of the Hot Spring Protection and Use Promotion Office, Natural Environment Improvement Division, Natural Environment Bureau, Ministry of the Environment. Thank you.

Director of the Kitabashi Hot Spring Conservation and Utilization Promotion Office:
Best regards

Then, I will explain based on the materials.

The Ministry of the Environment has been protecting hot spring resources since fiscal 1948 based on the Hot Spring Law. The law includes an item on the prevention of disasters caused by flammable natural gas associated with the extraction of hot spring water. In this item, the extraction of hot spring water shall not be permitted unless it conforms to the technical standards specified by the Ordinance of the Ministry of the Environment. This is an autonomous affair of each prefecture, but there is such a rule.

Among the technical standards of the Enforcement Regulations, there is an item that checks whether there is any abnormality in the water level indicator and the flammable natural gas-generating equipment inside the gas separation equipment, such as the equipment that separates the flammable natural gas contained in the hot spring when the hot spring is pumped up, at least once a month by visual inspection. These are the standards added by the law revision in 2007.

Next, I would like to explain the background of the establishment of this standard.

In 2007, an explosion occurred at a hot spring facility in Shibuya Ward, Tokyo, caused by flammable natural gas, specifically methane. In addition to the deaths of employees, there were also cases in which ordinary people walking around the area were injured. The accident occurred in the downtown area of Shibuya, and there was a great response. Based on this, the Ministry of the Environment requested emergency measures from each prefecture, and held liaison meetings with related ministries and agencies. Based on this background, we have come to the conclusion that it is necessary to have a legal obligation for safety measures.

After this incident, various studies were urgently conducted. Based on this, in November 2007, the Hot Spring Law was revised to add the prevention of disasters caused by flammable natural gas to the extraction of hot spring water in addition to the permission system for excavating hot spring water. In addition to the purpose of the law, the extraction of hot spring water itself has been made a permission system as a specific permitted provision, and at that time, periodic inspections of facilities and equipment, such as the occurrence of abnormalities in flammable natural gas generation facilities and separation devices, have been specified.

At the same time, although it is not the purpose of this study, standards for the prevention of disasters caused by combustible natural gas have also been added to the excavation of land for extracting hot spring water that I mentioned at the beginning.

Regarding the outline of the system, there are hot springs with various components, and first of all, it is necessary to check whether combustible natural gas is contained in the hot spring. If combustible natural gas is not contained, this standard does not apply. However, if natural gas is contained, it is mandatory to implement safety measures against it, and hot spring extraction permission and permission are granted as part of prefectural government affairs. When applying for permission, equipment standards are established such as the installation of gas separation equipment, the installation of appropriate exhaust ports, and the implementation of off-limits measures to prevent ordinary people from entering the vicinity. In addition, it is required to inspect the water level indicator inside the gas separation equipment and the combustible natural gas generating equipment for abnormalities at least once a month in subsequent operations. In addition, it is required by law and regulation to create disaster prevention regulations to be used by related workers.

Up to this point, the national government has been making efforts, but in addition to this, there are safety measures based on the internal rules of local government. For example, according to the Tokyo Metropolitan Government's Safety Measures Guidelines, it is stipulated that prior consultation with the fire department, training by the person in charge of safety measures, and education by the person in charge of safety measures are required.

Next, in terms of what kind of inspection is actually being conducted, there is information on what the combustible natural gas generation facility I mentioned earlier is. It is a hot spring well, a gas separator, and a facility that separates the natural gas contained in the hot spring from the hot water. There is also a hot water storage tank ahead, which is a tank that stores hot water before circulating it in the bathtub. These are positioned as combustible natural gas generation facilities.

It has been decided that when these things are outside, an off-limits fence will be built around the area. The content of the inspection, which will be a check point this time, is at the lower left of the document. It is supposed to inspect the equipment for any abnormalities that could cause gas leakage and their signs. Unlike the specific gas concentration, each equipment, especially the gas, has packing in each part. We are checking whether the equipment is corroded or deteriorated. Or, since it is a hot spring, it is called scale, but there are things that cause hot spring components to solidify. We are checking whether the exhaust port and pipes are clogged with such things. We are also checking whether the exhaust port is clogged with foreign matter. Since there are various organic substances in the hot spring, we are checking whether the sludge or biofilm is clogged at the exhaust port and other places, or whether bees are building nests or something like that is outside the hot spring.

In addition, there are fans in these facilities, so they vibrate very much. We are supposed to check whether the bolts are loose due to such things. Basically, we are supposed to inspect the visual inspection in a way that we understand in advance the situation before the gas leaks. As a safety measure for automobiles, I think we are supposed to apply the emergency brake before a collision.

In addition, regarding the water level indicator, which is the subject of the inspection, as described in the upper right corner of the document, it is supposed to check whether the scale is attached or damaged. The purpose of this is to prevent the failure of the water level indicator from sending sparks and causing an explosion.

In these inspections, which are directly linked to the Issue described later, there is a difficult situation peculiar to hot springs. One is that hot springs containing flammable natural gas are hot springs containing high-concentration chloride spring and salt, and equipment degradation and corrosion due to salt damage are extremely severe. Here, salt content is described, but in addition, abnormalities can also be caused by hydrogen sulfide gas. In hot spring areas, such electrical appliances as air conditioners and coolers are very often broken. There is a situation in which so-called electric wires, such as wiring, are extremely corroded.

The other is the scale caused by hot spring components, which I mentioned earlier. There are also problems such as the accumulation of calcium aggregates and the deterioration of equipment due to high temperature and humidity in hot spring resorts. I believe it is necessary to firmly understand these conditions and periodically inspect whether there is any deterioration or abnormality in the equipment itself before the gas leaks.

In light of this situation, the current phase is PHASE1. As I stated at the beginning, the ministerial ordinance uniformly stipulates that inspections be conducted at least once a month, and this ordinance does not stipulate the extension of inspection cycles through remote monitoring, including digital technology.

Based on this situation, in terms of the direction of future efforts, I would like to ask Issue how much substitution can be made with digital technology for complex matters such as deterioration of various packing and loosening of bolts that are inspected at the visual inspection in the first place. Not only technological substitution, but also technological Issue such as how much substitution can be made, including the severity of scientific conditions such as physical high temperature, high humidity, and salinity as I mentioned earlier. In addition, if technology is actually used for such hot spring facilities, how many units will be needed, or since there are many hot spring-related facilities such as hot spring inns run by so-called grandparents in the countryside, I think it is necessary to consider how much cost-effective it can be.

Based on the results of such consideration, we would like to reduce the burden on the field, so we would like to consider whether it is possible to extend the inspection cycle. Of course, it has not been decided yet, but we would like to request a budget to consider the use of digital technology in budget request next fiscal year.

In closing, I believe that the phase we are aiming for is PHASE2. The visual inspection inspections that are currently being conducted are extremely complex comprehensive judgments, and I do not believe that any single sensor or other device can be substituted. Therefore, first of all, I would like to work on further ensuring the level of safety in terms of accident prevention by utilizing digital technology. At the same time, I would like to see effective and efficient inspection methods that can reduce the burden on the site by utilizing digital technology. That is what I would like to aim for.

It's easy, but that's all from me.

Secretariat (Takamatsu):

Do you have any questions or comments about the explanation just given?

Masushima-sensei, please.

Masujima Member: Thank you very much for .

You said that the problems of various machines and equipment are very difficult, but there are various things in various plants, and there are many more complicated things, so we are trying to solve them with digital technology. If you look at the sensors, you can see that while the sensors are always taking data, if the waveform deviates like this, it is possible that something is happening, and then people are going there, and plants and factories are doing so.

People can't tell that the packing is loose, but they can tell that the pressure has changed very much if there are signs. This is probably the strength of digital technology. So, the idea of replacing what we are doing now with digital technology is exactly the same as using an automatic arm or a robot arm to affix a seal, as I always say. It is probably not the same. I think it would be good if you could take this into consideration. Also, in rural areas, I think there are many people who don't use this kind of technology, but I don't think it is a case of forcing digital technology. So, I think people who want to use digital technology should create a condition in which they can use it.

Director of the Kitabashi Hot Spring Conservation and Utilization Promotion Office:

I would like to thoroughly consider the matters you mentioned during the review work for next fiscal year.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): How about others?

Mr. Inadani, please.

Member Inadani: Depending on the progress of the .

One thing is that I thought the same thing as Mr. Masushima. I had something to ask you. I understood that in the explanation, there was a story that this regulation was created by the so-called Siespa Incident. However, I understand that the cause of the Siespa Incident was not the deterioration of the facility itself, but the fact that the construction of the facility was strange in the first place, and that it was an incident that ended up being caused by a combination of several human errors. In addition, I think that it is an incident in which a person who was in a position to actually visit the design and supervise the construction, and therefore in a position to tell the contractor what kind of problem was occurring, is accused of criminal liability.

Therefore, I do not think that the purpose of the obligation and the background of the SIESPA completely do not match. I would appreciate if you could tell me more about the background of that. I would appreciate if you could tell me more about the connection between the incident in which the person who had the most human error was punished and the fact that the equipment had to be properly inspected. Excuse me.

Director of the Kitabashi Hot Spring Conservation and Utilization Promotion Office: and Shibuya were caused by a combination of factors. One is that the exhaust pipe and exhaust port were blocked by dew condensation. The cause of the blockage by dew condensation is that even though there was a device to prevent dew condensation, it was not moved. At the same time, even in such a case, even though the exhaust pipe and fan were supposed to be used to discharge air from the inside to the outside, the fan was also abnormal, and ventilation was not possible. In addition, I believe that the switch itself was not explosion-proof. It is not clear here, but I believe that the explosion was caused by a spark from the control panel. I believe that there were double or triple mistakes in the equipment or its operation.

At that time, there were no legal restrictions on the release of flammable natural gas, especially flammable natural gas from hot spring facilities. The accident occurred indoors. In response to this, we discussed what kind of laws, such as the Fire Service Act or the Hot Spring Act, should be used to restrict the release of flammable natural gas, and it was decided to revise the Hot Spring Act to prevent accidents involving flammable natural gas, including outdoors.

Member Inadani: Depending on the progress of the

In that case, I do not know whether or not this is directly related, but in the case of that incident, the management company was also held criminally responsible, but in the end, they were acquitted. Is it possible to think that this obligation has come about in order to ensure that the management of the operation and equipment is firm?

Director of the Kitabashi Hot Spring Conservation and Utilization Promotion Office: That's right. Not only the equipment standards, but also the proper inspection of the equipment and the appointment of a person in charge of the inspection were added in the revision of the law.

Member Inadani: Depending on the progress of the If so, from the perspective of giving an incentive to the operator to do such things properly, is it true that there is a part where the way of handling responsibility in the event of an accident is actually reflected here? Did this happen while both sides were affected?

Director of the Kitabashi Hot Spring Conservation and Utilization Promotion Office: Yes.

Member Inadani: Depending on the progress of the I see. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Takamatsu):

What do you think, Mr. Ochiai?

Ochiai Member: Thank you for your explanation.

I heard you say that there are points that should be considered in validation for complex elements. Overall, if you summarize everything in a vague way, such as if you look at a variety of things, you will be assured of everything, and I think it will be impossible to describe it in words. After that, in the course of inspections for about 10 years, I think it will be necessary to clarify and standardize what parts are really connected to accidents in particular and what parts are really at risk. I think this is necessary not only for digitalization but also for the work itself to be accurate. In that sense, if you explain that there are many things, and it is impossible to know unless people at the site look at them, I think it will be possible to determine whether the people are really responding appropriately or not. In fact, even in the case of analog, I think it will be possible to separate them. On the other hand, if they are standardized, this technology is insufficient, so I think it will be possible to separate them by seeing only this part and not seeing this part.

In the same way that there is a story that we review business operations together when doing DX, I think it is the same story that we should use it as a trigger to create better business practices. Where we need to look first, and how can we standardize not only digital but also human so that safety can be improved? If we can break it down into elements, I think it will lead to cases such as high-pressure gas, which was handled by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. There will be parts where the efforts here are equivalent and can be replaced with other methods, and there will be parts where this activity cannot be substituted, and where the evaluation cannot be divided yet. I think there will be times when we can reduce the workload by looking at this at this timing. Instead of just replacing or omitting all at once, there will be partial things that can be done, such as cutting it in half. In the process of such a review, I was wondering if you could review the business operations themselves in a way that would improve the business operations in the case of analog. What do you think?

Director of the Kitabashi Hot Spring Conservation and Utilization Promotion Office: In my explanation earlier, I explained the specific items to be inspected, such as clogged pipes, deteriorated packing, cracked tanks, and clogged exhaust ports. Next year, as we consider various things, each prefecture and so on will collect inspection records, and based on these, as you said, I would like to consider where to pay attention and focus in the actual inspection work.

Ochiai Member:

In Digital Agency, we have accumulated examples where such technologies can be used for such things and there are such business operators. If we can break down the process, I think there will be more parts that can be advanced in cooperation, so I would like to ask for your cooperation.

Director of the Kitabashi Hot Spring Conservation and Utilization Promotion Office: Since we are not quite aware of cutting-edge monitoring technologies, we would like to make full use of such technology maps.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .
Since the time has come, I would like to separate the questions and answers here. Thank you very much to everyone at the Natural Environment Bureau of the Ministry of the Environment. I will end the second part here.

The third point is about the arrangement of guards related to the blasting of explosives.

Regarding this regulation, I would like to discuss only monitoring, patrolling, and surveillance, which are organized as Type 3 of the visual inspection regulation. I will explain the content of the regulation at the beginning, and after that, I would like to ask Mr. Okamoto, Director of the Commercial Information Policy Bureau of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, who is also present, to respond to the questions and answers.

I will explain three points.

The first point is about the content of the regulation.

Please take a look at the material on the upper row. Article 25 stipulates that those who intend to detonate or burn explosives must obtain permission from the prefectural governor.

In addition, in the latter part, necessary matters concerning consumption are to be specified by the Ordinance of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. As for gunpowder, its explosion or combustion is closely related to public safety, so it is a permission system, and regulation is operated in local government as an autonomous office by a local local government.

In addition, one of the acts in which gunpowder is consumed is blasting in mines, construction sites, etc., launching fireworks, capturing and exterminating wildlife, and using shot ammunition in target practice. Among them, blasting and launching fireworks in mines, construction sites, etc., which are considered to be relatively frequent, are specified in the regulations as follows in the Ministerial Ordinance.

Article 53, No. 16 says that when blasting, a watchman should be placed, measures should be taken so that only those concerned can enter the inside, and ignition should not be made unless it is confirmed that there is no danger. In addition, Article 56, No. 4, No. 4, No. 10 says that the consumption of fireworks refers to the launching of fireworks. In that case, it is said that ignition should not be made unless it is confirmed that there is no danger by taking measures so that only those concerned can enter the inside.

The above is the content of the regulation.

The second point of the explanation is about the image of the site where the blasting of gunpowder is actually carried out. Here, I would like you to see a video of the scene of the blasting of gunpowder.

(Video Screening)

Secretariat (Takamatsu): Although it is a site like this, there is a case where the mountain wall of a larger Yamagiwa itself is blasted on a large scale. At such a site, a few people carefully monitor the area with danger and press the button for blasting after confirming that there is no problem. This is the response taken.

Finally, the third point is about another act, fireworks. If you are going to hold a fireworks display, you need to submit an application for consumption permission and obtain permission from the prefectural governor. Guidelines for applying for this are compiled and published by each prefecture. For fireworks, based on these guidelines, you need to submit an application form that summarizes the system on the day of the festival, personnel allocation, and other plans, and obtain permission.

So if you look at an example, the first one is in Tokyo.

An example of the establishment of an Exclusion Zone, etc. is depicted, and this is one example, but an Exclusion Zone and an Entry regulation Zone are established in the area surrounding the launch site. This is an excerpt from the manual described at the bottom of the document, but as a rule, it is requested that a security system be secured so that no one other than those concerned will enter the Exclusion Zone.

Another example is from Chiba Prefecture, where an example of a consumption location map is written. The center of the circle is the location where fireworks are set off, and about four guards are stationed around it. The red squares are added by the secretariat.

As a point of note when preparing the application form, it is required to clearly enter the location of the watchman and the Games headquarters. For the Secretariat, for example, the fireworks venue is quite large and there are cases where a considerable number of spectators gather. If it is considered that there is no hindrance in relation to the purpose of the regulation, for example, if it is possible to allow a relatively inexpensive drones to take part in the monitoring work, it may be possible to give a certain advantage to the operator, so we would like to ask you to consider this point of view.

Mr. Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, do you have any additions or supplements?

Okamoto Manager: Explosives Control Law.

I would like to make two points.

My first question is about the fireworks accident at Disneyland. As it is already on the Internet, some of you may already know about it. There was a fireworks accident at Disneyland the day before yesterday, on the 10th. Specifically, it was an accident in which fireworks did not go up in the sky and exploded almost on the ground. Fortunately, I have heard from Chiba Prefecture that no one was injured. What I would like to convey to you is that such an accident involving gunpowder could occur in a nearby place, not in a distant world. I would also appreciate if you would recognize once again that if digital technology is introduced for the security of gunpowder, such reliability will be severely questioned.

The other point is the basic concept of regulation under the Explosives Control Law. In short, it is self-security. It is not for the national government or local government to take regulation in detail, but for the administration to show the purpose of regulation, for example, the ultimate goal of preventing explosions and taking safe measures, and for that purpose, the business operator can choose what kind of means to use to secure it.

Therefore, to restate this from the viewpoint of digital, it is basically possible to use digital technology for the regulation content of the Explosives Control Act. We have informed you that it is a legal provision that can be accepted if a business operator proves that safety is secured by using digital technology using data, scientific data, etc.

That's all from me.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .
We would like to ask for your opinions and questions on the above.

Mr. Ochiai, please.

Ochiai Member:

Thank you for your explanation. I understand the situation well. I certainly think it is important to prevent people from entering the area, and I think it is true that gunpowder is very scary. On the other hand, I think that the part that leaves it to the discretion to some extent and does not necessarily bind it to specific measures is also held as a kind of legal philosophy. Based on such points, I thought how we can proceed.

Basically, it is said that no specific method has been specified, but I believe that the point of this discussion is that people are stationed. It is an arrangement of what should be used to ensure that surveillance can be conducted. For example, it is possible to use a drones or make sure that the situation at the scene can be seen. In that case, what kind of method is used depends on the situation at the scene, but I believe that there is a reasonable part that can be combined with a method of creating a area that physically prevents entry if necessary, placing such things in places where people may be able to enter, and telling them not to enter using, for example, loudspeakers. I believe that it is not necessarily impossible for people to do this, and I believe that the surveillance staff does not necessarily have the authority to arrest people, for example. Therefore, I believe that the purpose of the regulation is to appropriately warn people and prevent them from entering as much as possible, rather than forcing them to do so. I believe that this part can be substituted, but what do you think? It is that a specific technology validation will be made.

Okamoto Manager: , I believe that the business operator will first verify whether the technology you just mentioned can be substituted. I believe that it will be accepted if local government, the holder of the license, agrees with the explanation with grounds.

Ochiai Member: I understand. Thank you very much.

During your explanation, there is a provision in the Enforcement Regulations that guards be assigned, so it seemed that it would not be possible to determine that there are no guards as it is now. Is that not the case?

Okamoto Manager: watchman is the blasting site, and there is no description of the location of fireworks and fireworks as a watchman in the first place. Therefore, in places like so-called mines and quarries, there are actually deaths, and here, alternative technologies are described in the so-called ministerial ordinance. Therefore, there is no description of a watchman in other places in the ministerial ordinance, so the current situation is that the watchman is no longer looking for fireworks in the first place.

Ochiai Member: I see. Thank you very much.

In that case, compared to fireworks, I think it is sometimes the case that people other than those concerned do not get close to the blasting. In addition, even now, for example, whether or not people are entering various places is sometimes measured by various methods such as a temperature sensor. I think there is a mechanism to identify whether or not there are people in a building, and if there is a problem, immediately report it to a security company. I think there are many cases where more effective measures can be taken, including methods to prevent people from entering. What do you think?

Okamoto Manager: I believe that there is a good chance that the technology you just mentioned can replace the guard. Therefore, I do not think that we will proceed with the situation where we have to have a guard, but I think that we will accept technology with potential.

Ochiai Member: I understand. Thank you very much.

Regarding such technologies in Digital Agency, I believe that we are not only entrusting them to business operators, but also collecting information on technologies used in various fields, including dangerous areas. I would appreciate it if you could use such information and proceed with the review.

Secretariat (Takamatsu):

I would like to add that, as METI explained, there is an explicit provision on blasting. As for consumption, there is no watchman in the regulations, but if you look at the operation of local local government, I think it is actually required, so I took it up.

In terms of verification by business operators, there is currently an idea that even if the regulation authorities think it is OK to use digital technology, if it is not clearly indicated, we will clearly indicate it and create a situation in which it is easy to use. Therefore, of course, I would like to take into account the content and purpose of regulation, but I would like you to consider this as well.

Mr. Inadani, how are you?

Member Inadani: Depending on the progress of the business operators to some extent. If there are any specific examples of such changes, please tell us about them.

Okamoto Manager: It's very geeky and technical, but for example, explosives are suspended in a certain place, that is, the amount that can be left is determined. In the event of an explosion, the impact on the surroundings is significant. However, there is an example in which a business operator wants to increase the amount of suspended explosives, and an application was made to take such safety measures as an alternative technology, and it was approved. I mentioned one example for your reference.

I would like to continue my statement on one point. In your statement earlier, you said that you would clearly indicate that digital technology can be used. To be specific, we are changing the regulation when we conduct voluntary security. To be specific, we are rewriting the Ministerial Ordinance. At the time of rewriting performance approach, digital technology is also included, so digital technology is already included. Therefore, I believe that we will consult with the Ministry of Digital and Information Technology (DMG) in the future. It is not that it is not specified, but that the Ministerial Ordinance has already been amended to include digital technology. Therefore, if digital technology is to be described again here, I believe that there is a possibility that it will be a debate over whether the previous amendments to the Ministerial Ordinance did not include digital technology. Therefore, I would like to consult with you separately on how to write it.

Member Inadani: Depending on the progress of the digitalization and the progress of technology, if opinions come out from the business side and arguments are made, it will change. That is your attitude. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): time has come, so we would appreciate if you could send your comments to the Secretariat later.

Thank you, Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, Commercial Information Policy Bureau.

Let's finish the third part.

That's all for today's hearing.

Do you have any comments or questions throughout? If not, that's all for the agenda.

Finally, I would like to ask a few words from Senior Vice-Minister for Foreign Affairs Kobayashi. Thank you very much.

Senior Vice-Minister for Digital: Thank you very much

I think we are going to discuss two issues, but before that, I think we have received quite important points in the discussion with you, so I would like to work out a strategy and sort out how to make it an agenda. I think you will be contacted separately, so please make adjustments.

In addition, the last project by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI) does not limit the means already, so if it is included, I think it is necessary to separately consider how to make it recognized by the people concerned, including others. With the help of Mr. Sugawara, Mr. Nemoto, and other members of economic organizations, this field has changed. Unless we convey in a good manner that this is a place where people can take on challenges freely, problems will eventually arise in which people will not be able to enter the field. Therefore, I think it is necessary to communicate that we need to make preparations with predictability, because there will be a timing when we can see how much time will pass in the future. I would also like to ask for your wisdom. Thank you very much.

Thanks to the hard work of the secretariat, a considerable number of adjustments are being made. In addition, one more step is scheduled to be boosted this week. It is a difficult time to harvest toward the end of May, but let's take another breath and work together. Thank you for your hard work.

Secretariat (Takamatsu): .

Finally, the Secretariat will explain about the next Working Group meeting.

The next meeting of the Working Group will be held on Wednesday, May 18, at 14:00. Thank you.

With regard to today's agenda, if you do not have any objection to the agenda at the beginning, we would like to keep it closed to the public. For the other parts, we would like to create minutes later and make them public after everyone has confirmed them. Is that okay?

In addition, with regard to the handling of materials, we would like to disclose the materials except for the opening sentence on our website.

With that, I would like to close the ninth meeting.

Thank you for joining us today.