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Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee Working Group (8th)

Overview

  • Date and Time: Wednesday, April 20, 2022 (2022), from 14:00 to 16:00
  • Location: Online
  • Agenda:
    1. Opening
    2. Proceedings
      1. Toward a digital completion of Administrative Procedures and Public-Private Transactions
      2. Draft outline of the Bulk Review Plan
      3. Exchange of opinions
    3. Adjournment

Materials

Related Information

Minutes, etc.

Date

Wednesday, April 20, 2022 (2022) from 2:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m.

Location

Online Meetings

Attendees

Chairman

  • Fumiaki Kobayashi, Senior Vice-

Members

  • Junji Annen (Attorney-at-law, Professor of the Graduate School of Law
  • Tatsuhiko Inadani (Professor, Graduate School of Law, Kyoto University)
  • Katsuya Uenoyama (President of PKSHA Technology, Inc.)
  • Takafumi Ochiai (Attorney at law, Atsumi & Sakai, Foreign Law Joint Enterprise)
  • Akiko Sugawara (Managing Director and Head of Policy Planning, Keizai Doyukai)
  • Katsunori Nemoto (Senior Managing Director, Japan Business Federation)
  • Masakazu Masushima (Attorney-at-Law, Mori Hamada & Matsumoto)

Minutes

Secretariat (Matsuda): We will now open the 8th Digital Ad Hoc Working Group.

I understand that Senior Vice-Minister for Foreign Affairs Kobayashi will be attending the meeting on the way due to business reasons, and that Mr. Sugawara will be absent due to business reasons.

We will now enter into today's proceedings.
I would like to ask Mr. Annen, Vice Chairman, to proceed with the proceedings from now on.
Thank you, Dr. Annen.

Vice-Chairman: .
Best regards

Regarding the proceedings of the 8th meeting, the first is "Efforts toward digital completion of Administrative Procedures and Public-Private Transactions" and the second is "Draft Outline of the Bulk Review Plan." We plan to have the Secretariat explain these two.

In addition, I would like to take a five minute break in the middle of the meeting.

First of all, I would like to ask Mr. Kusunome, Director of the Secretariat, to explain the first agenda item, "Efforts toward digital completion of Administrative Procedures and Public-Private Transactions."

Secretariat (Kusunome): Then, I would like to explain about Material 1.

Page 1 is a document on requests from the business community. In December last year, the Digital Ad Hoc Liaison Office conducted a questionnaire survey of economic organizations and others on regulation and systems that do not conform to the Digital Principles, and we received about 1,900 requests from the business community, including Keidanren.

Requests other than the seven preceding items discussed by the Working Group include a wide variety of requests, but we are classifying them as much as possible and conducting diverse examinations.

In the frame of the materials, the overall picture of the requests is shown. The left frame is "administrative procedures" and the right frame is "requests other than administrative procedures".

Amidst this, a considerable number of requests have been received regarding the fact that written documents and face-to-face regulation remain in the "Administrative Procedures" on the left-hand column.

Page 2 summarizes the current status of administrative procedures in digitalization.

With regard to administrative procedures, there are cases where the people apply to the administration and cases where the administration Issue documents to the people, but as you can see in the upper left, in recent years, efforts have been made mainly in regulatory reform, such as application procedures, from the perspective of digitalization.
In addition, on the lower left, which is the same as before, there are many requests from the business community for digitalization to regulation in writing.

Against this background, the table on the upper right shows the status as of March 2020. Looking at the status of online procedures for large-scale procedures, application procedures have been online to a certain extent, while the percentage of online procedures for Issue procedures is low.

In the lower right part, as specific examples, examples of Issue procedures and Issue are described, but for example, Issue procedures in writing such as automobile tax, landing permission for foreign nationals, and notice of transfer of national treasury money remain.

In addition, according to the hearings from each ministry in advance, there are reasons that cannot be mentioned here, such as ensuring the authenticity of certificates and the like, or the fact that the common information system cannot be used in procedures involving a local local government, or the fact that it is meaningless to go online because the Issue comes to the counter to pay the fee.

We believe that we can respond to such Issue by utilizing new technologies and developing systems, but in any case, we need to further respond to realize digital completion from application to Issue based on the Digital Principles.

Page 3 is an attempt to organize the correspondence between digital completion and digital principles, which was requested by the business community, and possible solutions at each stage of "application," "examination," and "Issue" toward Issue of administrative procedures.

For example, on the right side of the "Issue" column at the bottom, it says "from the government to the private sector." Regarding Issue, where a written document is required for Issue and notification from the government to the private sector, it falls under (1) of the Digital Principles, and it means that a solution can be considered by enhancing the functions of e-Gov, etc., or for Issue, where identity verification and ensuring authenticity are obstacles, it means that a solution can be considered by promoting the use of Trust services.

There may be some parts that need to be further organized, but with this in mind, we believe that it is essential to review rules and practices, conduct business DX, and develop systems in an integrated manner toward end-to-end digital completion of administrative procedures.
On page 4, based on the above background and Issue, I would like to move forward with three main points regarding our future response to promote administrative procedures based on the Digital Principles.

The first is "Prioritized Development and Promotion of Use of Common Information Systems in e-Gov, etc."

We would like to support the efforts of each ministry and agency by promoting the focused development and use of common information systems in e-Gov and other regions, such as online procedures for applications, examinations, and notifications.

In this regard, we will consider responses, including the possibility of expanding functions, in cooperation with relevant parties in Digital Agency.

The second point is "Construction of prior cases and presentation of typologies for improving convenience and utilization."
We will conduct hearings mainly on large-scale procedures, build prior cases based on the analysis of good practices and common Issue, and present typologies.

Specifically, we will promote the adaptation of administrative procedures to digital principles by providing information on advanced examples of initiatives such as API cooperation and ID standardization, and developing various guidelines.

The third point is the promotion of DX in each ministry and agency.

In each ministry and agency, we will advance necessary law measures and DX of business, and in terms of systems, we will request that all procedures can be implemented in e-Gov as a general rule by promoting the use of digitalization.

In addition to end-to-end digital completion of administrative procedures, we will work to promote initiatives based on digital principles, such as making administrative procedures one of-a-kind and one stop by information linkages, etc.

The material on page 5 serves as a reference material, but this is a material from the deliberations on the direction of consideration of application, notification, Issue, and notification of administrative procedures at the Digital Consultation Meeting at the end of March.

Today, we are asking you to deliberate on a more specific response policy based on our direction.

On page 6, for your reference in the discussion, I have organized the specific Issue procedures in descending order of number.

First, with regard to "Issue procedures based on application," from the top, they are arranged in descending order of number of cases. For example, No. 1 is a notice of confirmation of E-Certificate under the Commercial Registration Act. As indicated in No. 2 and No. 6, permission for import and export under the Customs Act. As indicated in No. 3 and No. 4, tax notices for automobile tax and light motor vehicle tax. As indicated in No. 5, permission for landing for foreign nationals. In addition, there are many cases of labor-related procedures such as employment insurance.

As for the Issue procedures based on these applications, we can see that online procedures are gradually being implemented, although there have been efforts to date.

Page 7: This is a Issue procedure in which Issue is not based on an application and notification is made unilaterally by the administration.

The first is the collection of city planning tax. The second is the notification of tax refund, etc. by final tax return, etc. The third is the clarification of working conditions at the time of employment placement. The fourth and fifth are the notification to violators of the Road Traffic Act, etc. As stated in the seventh and ninth, there are many notifications related to the Administrative Procedure Act and the Administrative Appeal Act.

With regard to the "Issue procedures that are not based on an application," there are still cases in which consideration has not been sufficiently advanced by each ministry, but since there are various types of procedures, we would like to organize and consider them according to the nature of the procedures.

Based on the current situation and Issue as described above, we would like to take the measures described on page 4 so that administrative procedures comply with the Digital Principles. We would appreciate your opinions.

Vice-Chairman: , Director of Planning, thank you very much.

If you have any comments or questions on the explanation by Mr. Kusunome, please let us know.

First of all, I would like to ask you a question. Aside from the application process, it has been pointed out for a long time that the digitalization process in Issue is slow. However, partly because it is like the payment of the fee mentioned earlier, I feel that it is difficult to proceed in a straightforward manner.

In addition, I feel that it would be relatively easy for those who apply to access the website of each public office or some other means. However, in the case of Issue, the information environments of the individuals who are being Issue are various, and I think there are many cases in which they do not know how to respond. What strategies does the Secretariat think should be used to attack?

Secretariat (Kusunome): .

As Dr. Annen mentioned, there are various types of Issue, and the obstacles to each are different. For example, some ministries and agencies are considering using new technologies to make Issue for certificates, which had been Issue for certificates in the form of cards, into applications, and some are promoting cashless payment of fees.

In this way, there are places where we are able to do things that we could not do before, so I think one of the things we can do is to try to expand horizontally by presenting several such cases.

There are many ministries and agencies that can be said to be able to do this if there are various precedent cases, and there are also procedures in which local governments is involved and procedures in which incorporated administrative agencies are involved. The number of these procedures is not that large, and they are not very cost-effective in some cases, but the number of these procedures is quite large. There are various moves to connect the Common Government System with local governments, and if they are linked well with the efforts of each ministry and agency, we may be able to proceed with each other.

It is still abstract, and we need to consider various specific matters, but we are considering it as a major direction.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

In any case, it seems that it is necessary to identify the bottleneck, accumulate prior examples or best practices, and determine how much of the bottleneck can be eliminated from the experience so far.

Nice to meet you, Nemoto-san.

Mr. Nemoto: .

However, with regard to the Issue procedures that you just mentioned, if we wait until the entire process is complete, we may not be able to proceed at any time. Therefore, in order for the electronic guidelines to be effective, I would like to ask you to proceed from where you can.

I myself am too lazy to just go to a convenience store to get a certificate of residence, and I still don't understand why a printer at home is not good.

In addition, the concept of personal authentication is completely eliminated in the form of Trust services, and I believe that the key is how to create this.

I am not quite sure what kind of Trust service the Digi-cho is planning, but I think that depending on the government agency and the local government, there will be some people who do not Trust (trust) the Trust service.

There are people in public office who have publicly stated that they have no more authenticity than face-to-face meetings, and there are also people who have samurai status. I think it may be necessary to provide such people with a certain kind of compulsory law, saying, "This is legally sufficient proof of the person himself."

Accordingly, "Trust Services" is described on page 3. I believe that there will be a need to take additional measures across the board, such as personal authentication and verification of the authenticity of the person, in the future process that was mentioned earlier. Otherwise, I feel that we will not be stuck again.

Vice-Chairman: , Director of Planning, how are you?

It's true that it's the last part, so if this part is removed, it won't be completed in the end.

Secretariat (Kusunome): .

As for the materials, there are some parts that are not completely written.
Regarding the guarantee using the Trust service, we would like to consider it in a wide range of forms, including the points you just pointed out.

In addition, regarding our future response, we would like to consider incorporating a little about the necessity of cross-jurisdictional measures for personal authentication, etc., based on your opinions.

.

Vice-Chairman: .
Mr. Nemoto, how are you?

Mr. Nemoto: Nice to meet you.

That's fine.

Vice-Chairman: .

I would like to ask one more question. Regarding "Promotion of DX in each ministry and agency" on page 4, does "in each ministry and agency" mean that it is entrusted to each ministry and agency to some extent?

Until now, I think that if it is left to each ministry and agency, it has tended to be partial optimization, organization optimization, or alignment of DX with the traditional way of business there. I think it is natural that "promotion of DX in each ministry and agency" here has not been decided to a specific extent, but what kind of image should I think?

Secretariat (Kusunome): .

Based on your guidance, I think we need to consider this from now on. First of all, as a major premise, there are some ministries and agencies that need to be in charge of their own efforts, but if they are divided vertically, I think it is difficult to incorporate examples of good practices from other ministries and agencies.

I believe that the API cooperation and ID standardization described on page 4 are examples of considerable progress, but I believe that it is possible to consider a form of slightly supporting the efforts of each ministry and agency by following up on the status of the efforts of each ministry and agency, while showing examples of advanced initiatives and showing that other ministries and agencies are doing such things, and promoting the use of a government common system with more enhanced functions.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
It is not possible to update all existing systems at the same time, so it is written here that API cooperation will be a key. It is a matter of course, but I really felt it.

Mr. Ochiai, please.

Ochiai Member: Thank you for your explanation. I would like to actively promote it.

I would like to make two points. The first is that there are times when it is said that it is difficult to proceed because of the relationship with local government. Just recently, the medical care Nursing Care Working Group of the regulatory reform Conference held a meeting with the participation of the Decentralization Office and Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications to discuss with the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare how to organize the form of local rules for nursing care procedures.

We are proceeding with the unification of such forms while confirming that it does not particularly violate decentralization or local autonomy. It has been said that the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare will consider this matter, including the possibility of revising ministerial ordinances, so the Digital Working Group is advancing various measures, but I believe that this is a relatively advanced initiative among those being advanced in regulatory reform.

Although we have not yet collected many cases, we are reviewing one or two cases of documents and seals in a horizontal manner, so I would like to encourage you to take this as a precedent and proceed with your efforts based on that.

In the end, I believe that procedures in local government have a greater impact on the lives of the people and the businesses of business operators than the national government itself, so I would like to ask you to refer to such cases and proceed with the unification of local rules. This is my first question.

My second question is about Trust's identity verification, which Mr. Nemoto mentioned earlier.

At the recent regulatory reform Promotion Conference, for example, in the Digital Working Group's discussion on passport Issue, we discussed how My Number should be used, and I believe that this point will be mentioned relatively often at the regulatory reform Promotion Conference.

I believe that this is being discussed in the Digital Agency Working or Data Strategy in Trust, but I think it is important to firmly align our perspectives and standards.

One way of thinking is, first of all, between face-to-face and digital, it is not necessary to strengthen regulation because it has suddenly become digital. In addition, I think it is very important to clarify at an early stage whether it is a digital consultation or a working group that will closely examine together what kind of process is at the same level, in order to efficiency the work. Regardless of whether or not it will be specifically organized at the Headquarters Committee, I would like it to be quickly advanced at a conference body somewhere in Digital Agency.
That's all.

Vice-Chairman: , thank you very much.

If there are any comments from the office, please do so.

Secretariat (Kusunome): Thank you for pointing this out.
I would like to refer to the preceding examples made by the regulatory reform Promotion Conference and others and proceed from now on.

In addition, with regard to Trust services, we would like to proceed while paying close attention to cooperation and division of roles with related departments and related conference bodies. We would appreciate your continued support.

Secretariat (Matsuda): I would like to add a few points about cooperation with Digital Agency. First of all, the authority to formulate plans and basic policies related to ID certification under the Digital Agency Establishment Law is concentrated in Digital Agency.

As for Trust services, there are systems that were originally held separately by multiple ministries and agencies, including the Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act, but these are also basically handled by Digital Agency.

In that sense, I believe that as long as we have the authority, we must firmly fulfill our responsibilities, including with regard to such laws.

In fact, the Trust Working Team has consulted with the Digital Rincho Secretariat, and it is important to discuss Issue services while specifying a specific Trust. For example, it is also important to discuss what kind of regulation services should be design after understanding what kind of Issue is emerging from Digi-in and. Trust

There are differences in the circumstances and background of Trust services in each country, so I think it is necessary to make a design in a common place and according to the Japanese situation.

The other is that Digital Agency is also responsible for basic planning and formulation of identity verification. For example, as guidance, there are guidelines for identity verification and identity verification that are limited to administrative procedures and that summarize which identity verification and identity verification are to be performed. I believe that there is also a need to utilize such guidelines for the subject of regulation. In the Issue that is occurring now, I believe that there is a considerable Issue in the identity verification and identity verification.

Including the Digital Rincho, Digital Agency, and regulation Office, as Mr. Annen said, how to organize the whole, Issue, and provide solutions is very important, and each team has started discussions, but I think it is necessary to work on it more seriously.

That's all.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

Dr. Ochiai, in regard to the first point, you pointed out that the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare is considering revising ministerial ordinances. Specifically, what and how do you intend to revise?

Ochiai Member: material projection, so I would like you to guess it again after the next teacher makes a statement.

Vice-Chairman: .
Then, Dr. Masushima, please go ahead.

Masujima Member: Who will take charge of where .

What we are discussing here is doing the same kind of inspection and so on, and now we are at this point, so I think we are taking this approach from this perspective, but I don't see the customer journey at all, or rather, when conducting administrative procedures digitally, the goal is to realize one time only and one time and so on, as we said several years ago.

When I think about it, the end user is supposed to be in front of the screen, so I think there are different people who are there in the case of individuals and the case of business operators, but I don't know what kind of customer journey is assumed and what is happening.

For example, say we will submit a bid, and submit it to public office.

Bidding is only for those who are inviting bids, and the bids may be from us, but it will be a terrible experience. When I think about securing the result that this kind of thing will go smoothly, I don't know where I will get with this presentation of Issue.

Another example is the same story. For example, I have talked about it somewhere, such as the regulatory reform Promotion Council. When we want to get permission to use the road, we want to go to the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, go to the National Police Agency, go to a local local government, and the procedures are all different. It is nonsense to say that it is digitalization, go to each page and do each.

At least from the perspective of the people who create such services in private sector, such a thing is impossible, and it will have to be completed in one place. However, I think that it is impossible to see from this paper what kind of problem awareness such a thing is being scooped up in this examination.

As for administrative procedures themselves, there are a few Issue and documents in which the procedures themselves are written down in law, so I think it is necessary to do something about them. However, other than that, procedures are not written down in law, and I think many of them are carried out by internal rules.

If the internal rules we are working on now were just made digital, it would be completely meaningless. I think the essence is how we can achieve our purpose with less trouble by sitting on a chair, having a screen, and using this screen. In order to create such a state, I think we need to cut off the future response, whether it is Issue or Phase, and get to the point. I would like to ask you to point out if your understanding of the problem is different.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
In this report, if I were to use the words you just used, I would say that there is more emphasis on digital only, and I had the impression that one time only and other types of only will be considered in Issue in the future. Secretariat, if you have any opinions, please let me know.

Secretariat (Kusunome): Thank you for pointing this out.

With regard to the material on page 1 titled "The Overall Picture of Requests from the Business Community," first of all, in the background, among the requests from the business community, there are still many requests for written or face-to-face regulation. In particular, although you have made a digitalization for your application, there are many cases in which even if you digitize your application, you will eventually have to go to get it, and if you do not make a digitalization for Issue, it will not be more convenient. Therefore, first of all, in order to respond to these cases, we will focus on the Issue part of the document and make efforts together.

As a result, we will make an end-to-end digital completion for the convenience of users, for example, as stated in the first principle of the Digital Principles, so we are placing one priority on conforming to the Digital Principles.

On the other hand, as you just mentioned, regarding the matter of going to the police or the Road Bureau with permission to use the road, although it is a little different from this time, as it is in the [By Theme] on the lower left, for example, mobility, human resources, and general affairs, we would like to proceed with responding to various Issue collectively by theme.

In the chart on page 4, there are many things that have not yet been made online, but first of all, with digital completion in mind, it is important to advance the DX and system aspects of business as a set, as you pointed out, so I would like to make efforts to understand advanced cases. For example, there are new cases in which the system can be completely used, such as the permission of drones, and certificates are issued digitally, so I would like to ask each ministry and agency to make efforts, including the improvement of the business itself, while horizontally deploying such cases.

First of all, I focused on the Issue procedures, which can be seen in considerable numbers in Issue, and explained it this time. In that sense, in the discussion at the very front, there may be some parts that were a little weak in terms of looking ahead, but of course, we would like to advance our efforts while looking ahead to the conformity of the entire administrative procedure with the digital principles. We would appreciate your continued guidance.

Best regards

Vice-Chairman: , how are you?

Masujima Member: Who will take charge of where , I think this is exactly a trap. First, we say let's do Issue, and then we talk about doing the Issue system, and then we do something strange and vertical. After that, we talk about how to link it with other systems, don't we?

I have a feeling that the current idea is probably a pattern that should not be done in digital.

Leapfrog is difficult, but I understand it. I understand that even if you go step by step, there is a whole picture that the next step will be like this, and if you don't do the next step, it will be an obstacle to moving on to the next step. I don't know how much attention is being paid to that now.

You said that you felt a sense of problem here, but Mr. Uenoyama is also raising his hand, so Mr. Uenoyama may have some opinions in this kind of place, so I will just tell you that I was aware of the problem.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

Then, I would like to ask Mr. Ochiai to speak and then Mr. Uenoyama to speak.

First of all, Mr. Ochiai, please.

Ochiai Member: .

Then, I will project it.

This has not yet been posted on the web at this point, so I think it will be announced promptly in the future, but it is an opinion that I have already submitted. I have submitted it to the working group of the regulatory reform Promotion Council in the form of a written opinion with Mr. Oishi of Mediva.

I am writing to drastically reduce the burden of administrative procedures in the field of nursing care by local rules and the like. In that, I am proposing that such forms and attached documents be unified, that the forms be specified by Ministerial Ordinance, and that individual forms not be specified in principle.

With regard to this, the Decentralization Office and Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications have not said that there is a particular problem, and the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare (MHLW) is communicating at the meeting that it will be considered.

However, the Working Group itself will not immediately disclose the various exchanges, so I am saying that the materials themselves are being prepared for disclosure on the website of the Cabinet Office, so when disclosing the materials themselves, I would like you to handle them carefully based on the context.

That's all.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

As a matter of course, the Secretariat will also cooperate with the Secretariat in regulatory reform, including handling precautions.
.

Mr. Uenoyama, as Mr. Masushima pointed out earlier, I would like to hear your opinions.

Uenoyama Member: .

Then, I think the points mentioned by Masujima-san are important, so I would like to make a related comment. There are Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3 degrees of digitalization, and depending on how much of the existing operation is regarded as a variable for digitalization and how much is regarded as a constant, not a variable, the feeling of digitalization level can be design in multiple stages.

I think what Mr. Masushima pointed out is that it is not that only the superficial part is regarded as a variable and the important part is not changed. I think it is important to create a common understanding of how much is regarded as a variable and a constant.

For example, the easiest thing to do at Level 1 is to stop using paper and make a digitalization. It may be that it is good to be able to do it quickly. If we consider Level 2 and so on, as Mr. Masushima said, assuming that Level 2 is defined as designing the flow when users apply, such as the so-called user experience, and making a digitalization in accordance with it, we can consider a higher-dimensional digitalization at Level 3 and Level 4. For example, the scope of variables can be raised to the level of digitally redesigning the process of people who receive applications within ministries and agencies. If we raise the scope of variables further, there are short-term and medium-term discussions such as digital redesign, including the entire vertical structure of ministries and agencies. Therefore, I think it is important to consider that digital design is not limited to software, but that people work as part of information systems while people and software work together, and to form a common understanding to a certain extent on to what extent the scope is to be moved in Digital Agency and to what extent it is to be regarded as variables.

As one of the realistic answer hypotheses, I thought that the process from the user's point of view would be better to be shared in this talk.

In addition, we are promoting digital completion this time, but there should be some disadvantages to simply losing paper and making it digital-only. For example, I think there are some things such as identity verification and proof of authenticity, but I think it is good that it is paper, and I think it should be noted that digital completion it will be bad unless you are careful and creative.
That's all.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
First of all, please answer the second question from the secretariat.
I was asked if they properly considered the disadvantages of digitalization.

Secretariat (Kusunome): .

Regarding the Issue procedures, we are currently conducting various hearings in advance, and I have heard that there will be such a Issue, but we are at the stage where we will sort out the Issue.

With regard to the application, I believe that there is an accumulation of information in the past that we have been working on in relation to regulatory reform and others, and we would like to refer to such information. Although we are not in a situation where we can immediately show that we have such an organized information, we believe that there is information that will be helpful for our efforts to date, and we would like to proceed with our consideration while sufficiently referring to precedents.

Vice-Chairman: 's first point?
It is about what is used as a variable or what is targeted.
Should I think that there is a picture about this? What is it?

Secretariat (Kusunome): .

It is necessary to carefully consider the perspectives of users, applicants, people, and companies, and to review the flow of the system of each ministry and agency. I believe that Digital Agency will also consider what functions should be created and what flow should be created in the process of building a common system.

As you pointed out, I fully understand that such a perspective was missing in the materials, etc., so I would like to make further efforts including such points.

Secretariat (Suga): Materials, we have listed e-Gov and others as keywords, and we will discuss them with the people concerned in the Digi-cho. We have all our feelings, but there are various nonsense happening, such as there are many contact points, many websites, you have to log in multiple times, and you have to go through the procedure again to submit the document you submitted to the next person.

As for the requests from the business community, they have expressed their concerns about the digital completion of identity verification and the inconsistency of forms, but we have indicated on page 3 that we understand that they are consistent.

If we try to thoroughly implement the digital principles, for example, if you are asked to submit the same information to various public office, if you just check the relevant ministries and agencies on the initial application screen, the information will be automatically shared with the relevant ministries and agencies. I think it is natural to make a design. Unless we think together from the philosophy of what to do with the design of user experience and front service, we have learned that even if we change the rules and make it possible to make a digital completion, it is inconvenient and the online usage rate does not increase. We have repeated this many times. In that sense, for the digital completion of administrative procedures, we have no choice but to think about the design philosophy and philosophy of the system together with the main body of the Digi-cho. I would like to make thorough adjustments within the Agency.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

It is a common platform, a world where things go forward in one shot.
Mr. Masushima, please.

Masujima Member: Who will take charge of where will be?

As is always the case with interface theory, there is always a debate about whether it is better for private sector to build the interface than for public office to build it.

Of course, it is OK to have an official version of public office, but I would like you to work with the Digi-cho to create a system in which a more convenient version of private sector will be available and everyone will use it. As Mr. Suga just said, this is not a matter of rules, but a matter of systems, so I thought it would be good to talk about the appropriate administrative procedures, such as Todo, which puts the system more front and center.

.

Secretariat (Suga): As you really say, I think it is of course ideal that the API is firmly turned off and procedures can be performed even if the people and business operators enter through the UI they are accustomed to using. I think that is what you said in the Principles for Public-Private Cooperation of Digital Principle 3, and of course, I believe that this will also be firmly reflected.

Masujima Member: Who will take charge of where .

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
Mr. Inadani, please.

Inadani Member: 's talk and the discussions so far, I believe that the most problematic part of the rules this time is the arrangement of regulation for use for purposes other than the original purpose in promoting information sharing.

If data governance and personal data protection are to be promoted in this reform for what purpose and in what form, I think it is necessary to promote them in a consistent manner with the targets of digitalization, that is, in a consistent manner with what purpose and how digitalization will be promoted. This is because, while this point is ambiguous, in the end, the legal regulation on data governance and personal data protection will remain as a bottleneck, and if we cannot proceed to the next step of digitalization, it will be a waste of time. Therefore, I think it is necessary to develop the legal system as a whole in a consistent manner according to each purpose while looking at both.

From such a perspective, I would like to ask what you are currently thinking about and what you intend to do in the future as the specific content of the description of the consolidation of regulation, etc. for use for purposes other than the original intent.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

If you have any views at this point, I would like to hear them.

Secretariat (Kusunome): .

Specific consideration of this part will be conducted later.

As you said, we would like to review the system, regulation, business operations, and flow in an integrated manner, so please continue to provide us with guidance.

Inadani Member: I understand.
.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
Mr. Ochiai, please.

Ochiai Member: , I would like to ask about the last point that Mr. Masushima was discussing. Today, we are also holding a digital working meeting in regulatory reform, and at the meeting, there was a matter that we discussed in relation to the Fair Trade Commission, and we were talking about loose coupling and standardization of systems.

On the other hand, among other topics, we are also discussing the issue of hunting guns. There, it was pointed out that it would be better if Mr. Taki and others could report necessary information such as locations on applications and the like used by hunters. There was also discussion that it would be better to take out just the functions and make them loosely coupled than to make all the development by the administration.

Discussions are scattered in various places, and if you cut out a part, you may face the Issue of not knowing where you are aiming. However, I think it is important to understand how to carry out the design of the system itself, how to carry out public-private cooperation there, and what kind of services and social conditions are in front of you.

Unless we take into account the actual situation in society, I don't think it will eventually reach one time only. I think that loose coupling is included in Principle 3, which Mr. Suga talked about earlier. Just today, there was such a discussion, so I would like you to proceed in cooperation with the discussion of the system itself.

That's all.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
Would that be all right?
.

This Working Group is a group with an extremely high percentage of lawyers. Is it in spite of this, or is it because of this? Of course, rules are important because they are rules, but rather than rules, it is a system, or rather a machine, or is it something like that? I think it is a very interesting phenomenon that the spotlight has been focused on this, and I have been listening to the discussions so far. I believe that you have made very meaningful remarks.

Thank you very much.

The second item on the agenda is the "Draft Outline of the Comprehensive Review Plan."
Listen, this is the outline of the plan. I'd like to include this in our discussion.
Counselor Matsuda, please give us an explanation.

Secretariat (Matsuda): .

Now, I would like to propose the outline of the Comprehensive Review Plan. The Prime Minister has instructed us to compile the Comprehensive Review Plan no later than the end of May. We are currently working toward that.

Today is just the outline, so I would like you to discuss and point out various matters, such as whether we should include such perspectives or whether this is different in the first place.

It is "1. Review of analog regulation".

The working group is conducting hearings with each ministry in advance, and it is called "(1) Response to Laws, Cabinet Orders, and Ministerial Ordinances," and it is called "i7 Review Policy."

This has already been discussed at the Working Group at the end of March, and Minister Makishima reported to the Third Digital Interim Report. I believe that the seven categories and phases that have been finalized will be reviewed in their entirety.

Regarding "(ii) Sorting out exceptional cases that do not fall under the Policy for Review of Principles," we believe that the number of exceptional cases that do not fall under the Policy for Review of Principles is not zero, and this will be done individually with each ministry, but I think there are still some technical difficulties, and we will change them individually.

On the contrary, I would like to revise everything else in accordance with the policy.

With regard to the provision that we have agreed to review with each ministry in "III. Review of Prior Cases among Approximately 5,000 regulation," we will firmly agree on the review policies with each ministry, and I would like to write as much detail as possible about whether to go from Phase1 to Phase2 after the review, whether to go to Phase3, by when, and what will be revised.

On the other hand, with regard to the ○ below, even though the review policy has been decided, there are more than 5,000 cases, so I believe that it is not realistic to have all cases by May.

However, I believe it is also necessary to reach an agreement with each ministry on what should be decided by when.

In "(2) Response to Notifications, Notices, etc.," regarding notifications, notices, etc., I believe that the review policy is the same type and phase, but I believe that it is necessary to state some progress on this.

In the Secretariat, we are still asking support providers to work together on this, but we have now identified the seven items in advance through notifications, and the number of rough figures before detailed examination is more than 10,000.

We are currently conducting a detailed review of this, and there is of course a possibility that the number will decrease slightly, but compared to the 5,000 provision of laws, government ordinances, and ministerial ordinances, there is a possibility that a considerably larger number of prefectures will be bound by notifications and circulars.

This is also quite different depending on the object. For example, training courses are mostly tied up, including notifications and notifications. In short, I believe that practical matters are more tied up in such a way, and it will be impossible to coordinate all of this with each ministry by May, so I hope to determine by when this will be processed during the three year intensive reform period.

In order to conduct a comprehensive review of the requests received for items other than the seven items in "(3) Overall discipline" and "I. Policy for responding to requests received from the business community," I would like to clearly indicate the types and approaches to be taken in a certain type.

With regard to the "Publication of a Review Policy Pertaining to Representative Requests," where we have already started a little discussions with various ministries, we would like to agree on representative parts that we can agree on.

For example, in response to requests from the business community, there were discussions on whether official gazettes itself could be handled as a digitalization or whether paper official gazettes and digital official gazettes could be handled in the same way. First of all, there was discussion on who the relevant ministries and agencies were. For the time being, the Cabinet Office, the National Printing Bureau, and Ministry of Finance and Digital Agency, which are responsible for the Printing Bureau, have held related director-level meetings and have started some discussions to bring the level to a level that can be addressed by the working group. We are currently proceeding with the submission of several proposals to the working group in May after Golden Week, and if we can reach an agreement, we would like to reach an agreement.

Since "2. Approach to the regulation Revision" is quite intertwined with 1, there may be various edits to the last sentence, but I believe it is necessary to present certain policies regarding the "Comprehensive law Revision."

In regard to this, we are working with each ministry in parallel to determine what specific measures can be taken.

However, as far as we know, one is the General Law on Digital Procedures, which is an approach to expand the law so that it can be done digitally instead of in writing. In particular, I believe there are some administrative procedures.

On the other hand, we are also sorting out what kind of methods there are for laws that are processed collectively by bundling various laws in the same type.

In addition, there are cases in which periodic inspections and technical validation are required, and there are cases in which resident and full-time duties are highly individual in terms of law, so I am sorting out how to handle these things and what the Issue is, so I would like to write down the essence of it.

As "(2) Review through Technical validation," we would like to discuss the necessary review of Technical validation, including necessary budgetary measures, by clearly showing the scheme of Technical validation.

However, in the first place, I believe that we can simply review regulation, and I would like to indicate our direction by saying that we may provide such support only to those that require technical validation.

In terms of "(3) Review through system development," to what extent and how the system, business, and system can be reasonably reviewed in an integrated manner will probably be considered from the perspective of users, like service design, and naturally, the budget for the system will be required in the end.

In this regard, Digital Agency is responsible for compiling the budgets for the systems of the Cabinet Office and each Ministry. In this compilation, each Ministry will create a draft plan on what priorities will be given to system investment over the next few years, and a scheme will be worked out from this year to communicate with Digital Agency. In this scheme, I believe that there will be a flow to positively evaluate the budget for the steady processing of regulation that has emerged from the inspection and review of Issue by the Digital Ad Hoc Consultation.
In "3. Development and Application of Initiatives," I think that I will be able to refer to the medical care and Long-Term Care DX mentioned earlier, but in order to support the initiatives of local governments, I would like to create a seven item review manual for regulation, provide information on advanced examples of initiatives, and present further directions to support the initiatives of local governments.

In conjunction with the Technology validation mentioned earlier, as part of "(2) Examination and Development of the Technology Map / Catalog," the regulation authorities will issue a Issue for the Technology validation, and the Technology validation will be circulated to companies and business operators who have solutions that can respond to it. At the same time, the Working Group will further refine the Technology Map / Catalog, for which a certain draft has been created, and I believe that the Digital Rincho will play a central role in developing the infrastructure that can be used by all ministries and agencies.

In "4. Efforts toward digitalization of Legal Affairs," as you have discussed in more detail in another working group, I would like to show policies by "establishing a process and system for confirmation of compliance with the digital principles of law, etc., and presenting policies for establishing a system for providing digital originals of law, etc.," and show what kind of process, who will do what, including requests for the organization and number of staff in the summer.

Regarding "5. Transition to a Government Appropriate for the Digital Age," I would like to provide direction on the content of discussions at the Agile WG on the Formation and Evaluation of agile type Policies, which is being considered mainly by the Administrative Reform Secretariat, as well as the basic and human resources, such as "securing and utilizing digital human resources and developing environments for utilizing digital tools," which is a set with regulation.

Since it is still an outline proposal, it is quite different, but I would like to hear your opinions.

Vice-Chairman: .

If you have any comments or questions about the current report or presentation, please feel free to ask.
I have to write a lot from now on.

I really need you to speak up, Mr. Nemoto. He's like a bookmaker.
Yes, please.

Mr. Nemoto: Domoto, but I would like to say a few things.

First of all, regarding the comprehensive review plan, I would like to share the recognition that this is probably the first review plan.

It was mentioned earlier in the section on 5,000 provision, but in (2), there is a story like "Plus notifications and notices, etc. 15000 have been issued." We have to respond to all of this, but I fully understand the words of the Councilor that it will not be completed by the end of May. I think he is saying that he will go as far as he can for now.

In relation to this, my sense is that the "comprehensive regulation Reform" in "2. law Review Approach" is the first step and will probably be submitted around the 2023 Ordinary Session. If it is different, please tell me.

During various discussions, including at the regulatory reform Promotion Council, I am concerned that the side that raised the Digital Principles will explain the necessity of the reform. The Five Digital Principles are matters to be decided by the Cabinet, and procedures that do not fall under the Five Principles must be changed to exchanges in which each ministry will raise the issue of how to change the procedures to those that fall under the Five Principles or whether the procedures will fall under the principles. There are 20000 and 30000 cases, so I feel that it will be extremely difficult for the North Korean side to submit the issue. I feel that we must take a negative list approach and give various suggestions to each ministry.

My third comment is to support local governments's efforts. I am fully aware that it is difficult, but I have heard that general systems used by local governments, for example, those on the cloud, are provided by the national government. I believe that local government, which does not use such a system, may have both carrots and sticks, such as removing necessary expenses from the Issue tax.

This is a discussion of administrative exchanges. Mr. Suga just stated emphatically that "a different form of local autonomy does not mean local autonomy." I would like you to proceed in that way.

Next, regarding Technology Map, I have seen the materials you explained many times so far. In the second row on the left side, where various things such as "application" are lined up, the current way of regulation itself is lined up, and it is not clear what I tried to see behind the way of regulation, but there must be some reason.

Probably, in order to explain the reason, I feel that it will be the last picture by reaching the point where "there is such a description about the law regulation." This time, it may not be in time, but at some point, I think we need to look back and see why such a regulation and procedure are included.

What I feel most is that the topic of identity authentication that I mentioned in the first discussion is quietly omitted here. I think it is probably omitted because it is related to the whole, but it will be bad if it is not included somewhere. It may be necessary to include it specifically. There are problems with authentication in various places such as administrative procedures and private procedures, so I do not have ideas on how to do it, but I feel that it is bad if it is omitted.

I beg to differ, but that's all for now.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

I think it was the second point. I remember what you said in 2023, but what was the content?

Mr. Nemoto: "Comprehensive law Revision" is written in (1) of "2. regulation Review Approach." The first version of the law Revision is the Ordinary Session in 2023.

I have a feeling that the schedule is very tight, but I have to do my best.

Vice-Chairman: You just pointed out several points, but if you have any thoughts at this point, I would like to hear from the Secretariat.

Secretariat (Matsuda): .

As for some points that are known or considered at this point, I once again thought that it is important to write down the details of identity verification and Trust services in a horizontal flow. I thought that it would be positioned as a solution to the demands of the business community, but I will write down more thoroughly.

However, as Mr. Nemoto said, there have been certain guidelines for administrative procedures in the past, but in regulation, no one has provided guidelines, and how will they be provided? There are some parts of the government that do not go back very far, so how can they be provided?

In the end, if regulation is divided, I think there will be various problems, so I would like to consider a little bit about how we can manage here in a unified manner, including within Digital Agency.

With regard to the timing of the submission of the "Comprehensive law Amendment," as you can see, we do not have much time even now. On the other hand, with the next ordinary session of the Diet in mind, we are considering what we can submit, and we are currently advancing our thinking.

However, the period of technical validation will depend considerably on which products will be developed and to what extent, so I would like to organize this well.

In addition, when the number of provision increases from 5,000 to 10,000, it is not a matter of proof, but in fact, we have been communicating with each ministry and agency that since the principles have been decided, it is reasonable for the ministry and agency in charge to respond based on the principles. provision

On the other hand, although we continue to communicate with each other, there are some parts where we do not understand the purpose well. Therefore, at least for the 5,000 provision, based on the Phase and Type mentioned earlier, we are currently communicating with each ministry and agency that the Secretariat will present a plan to extend the period to Phase2 or Phase3, and if you have any opinions on this, please let us know.

On the other hand, as you just mentioned, I feel that there may be some Issue that will do the same thing with notifications. I would like to think about whether there will be a way of communication and a way for each ministry to understand how to do it and respond positively.

In local governments, when Digital Agency was created, the Act on Standardization of Information Systems in local governments was enacted for local local government systems.

It has been legally decided that local systems must be standardized, and I believe that there is a current trend of Digital Agency and Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications working together to standardize each one.

We have just started to provide the local government part of Ghana Buckler, so I believe it is important to further advance such moves.

That's all.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Nemoto: .

Most of the work that Mr. Masushima pointed out earlier, which is to sit in front of the screen and finish everything, is related to local governments. If the people do not somehow improve this, they may end up saying, "What is digitalization?"

It may be fine if it is done by various large companies, but in terms of the national economy, there are many places where this is not possible, so I would like to ask you to do the administrative procedures related to local governments.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
That's true.

Due to decentralization, authority has been transferred to local governments more than before. I think you are absolutely right.

Would it be possible for Mr. Masushima and Mr. Ochiai to take turns?

Masujima Member: Who will take charge of where .
First of all, I am in favor of the draft outline itself that was compiled this time, and I feel that there are no omissions in major parts of the whole. I would like it to be made in a form that incorporates the perspectives that I discussed in the first half.

It is said that there is a time frame, so I feel that it is more like the maximum that can be done within the time frame is written. I think this is fine.

That's all.
I'm all for it.

Vice-Chairman: .

Secretariat (Matsuda): What Mr. Masushima said in the first half a little while ago is one of a kind of Issue including Digital Agency. For your reference, I am learning a lot and as far as I know, there is a development policy that Digital Agency presented at the end of the year. In fact, it is related to what Mr. Uenoyama said earlier, but I am saying first of all that you must do the system project as a team that integrates systems, business, and systems.

System projects that do not involve business owners usually fail, and systems cannot be changed. In other words, if a system is created only by people who do not have the authority to change the system, it will be unknown to the users. First of all, we asked them to properly include the three.

Projects that did a good job had been solved relatively well by Issue since the time of the IT Office in the past, and projects that did not do that had been difficult to achieve results even with investment. I think this needs to be thoroughly implemented, and in relation to Technology Map, I once again thought that it is always important to think about design again, by reconsidering existing systems and business operations a little more in terms of functions, and how much is digital and how much is human.

Another point is that in Digital Agency, quite professional people who have recently been assigned to service design in private sector have joined the team, including Mr. Asanuma of service design, in the position of CDO. They have started trials to redesign various services, such as digital front services, from the viewpoint of users, not only in terms of appearance and touch, but also in terms of their fundamental functions. I would like to further consider how to incorporate such a flow into the current discussions.

This is because in the case of a certain type of digitalization with administrative procedures, an inventory survey is conducted based on the Administrative Procedure Act, and if there is a Issue, it is identified, and then it is approached by each ministry. On the other hand, some ministries and agencies are working on it, but they are not able to grasp the entire system or the entire business, fully incorporate the service design, and decide what to fix.

I think it is necessary to figure out how to make it into a form, and if possible, I think it should be possible to measure it. If we can measure how convenient it has become even a little, it will be easy for the people to evaluate it. Even if we make the next investment, I think it will be about where to invest to make it effective with less resources.

In that sense, I would like to visit there as well.

Masujima Member: Who will take charge of where .

Since Matsuda-san is leading this, there is a strong trust that there will be no mistake, and the continuation part is exactly the same as private sector in the end. I think it is about whether the person who started can go to the end, so I will watch the conversion.

How often does it happen that if there are many things left undone, everyone will miss? This can be a KPI for improvement, but how do you increase the probability that the person who started it will go to the end?

Private sector is doing this by changing the size and location of buttons on a pixel-by-pixel basis, and I think it is natural in the IT field to increase conversions by repeating this very much, so I am very much looking forward to the publication of a paper that uses this as an indicator and says that it will change rapidly, although it is still a skeleton.

Secretariat (Matsuda): .

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

I am very glad that Mr. Masushima rarely agreed with me.

Then, Mr. Ochiai, please.

Ochiai Member: .

First of all, I am in favor of it as a whole. On that basis, I would like to comment on the points that I think should have such implications.

First, I think you talked about Trust services, which Mr. Nemoto pointed out earlier, but I thought there are other technologies than Trust services.

There are various things such as inspection and visual inspection, but when looking at technology, it is better to standardize what the same technology can and cannot do to some extent, and to sort out what can be measured by a ruler as much as possible. I think it will contribute to efforts to introduce digital technology in a similar form to some extent, which is the purpose of the NRA, not limited to Trust services.

In that case, it should be somewhat easier for private sector companies to understand that if they are able to do this, they may be able to use it for this kind of thing when they conduct technical development. I think it would be good to show their viewpoints in (2) and (3).

Second, I believe that the organization administrative reform that Mr. Matsuda mentioned earlier is extremely important.

That part is written in No. 5 in the form of securing and utilizing digital human resources and environmental improvement. I believe that we should make sure to work as a team with this set, and that we should ask for the standard set as much as possible. I believe that this should be written in this item, or we should add one more item. It is not just regulatory reform, but also the administrative investigation Meeting, so I would like to ask for such a set.

I fully understand what you have already thought through the discussion earlier, and it is important how you express it, so I believe that clarifying the content will make it easier for the DigiAgency to work on it later.

Lastly, in relation to local governments, I believe that in relation to local governments, it is necessary not only to promote but also to have the business itself reviewed.

In the written opinion I just projected, I wrote that it is the policies that should be decentralized, not the details of the work. This is a slightly arranged phrase from what I was taught by Chairman Satoh of the medical care Nursing Care Working Group. It is important what should be decided and developed by the national government, but I think it is necessary to request a review of the work of the local governments while showing responsibility as the competent ministry. It is necessary not only to request change, but also to provide necessary assistance.

I think it is important to organize and discuss in this way. I don't think local governments will be able to solve the problem just by installing the system, so I think it would be good if we could proceed in a way that we can review our business.

That's all.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
Your comments are very reasonable.
In the end, local problems will remain.
Mr. Uenoyama, how are you?

Uenoyama Member: .

I don't think there is anything particularly strange about what is written, but as a preliminary question, I believe that the outline of the Comprehensive Review Plan will be created for public announcement in the future. In that case, I would like to confirm once again the position of this document, what kind of audience and what kind of response you want to elicit as the design of this document.

Is it to make it easier for each ministry and agency to take action, or is it to be seen as an explanation when taking action? Is it to make it known to the whole people that the Digi-cho is doing such an innovative thing? Or is it that we are just describing a map of design? Is that the target?

I believe that there are probably multiple audiences, so could you please confirm their positioning?

Secretariat (Matsuda): .

As for the positioning of the materials, based on the instructions from the Prime Minister to compile a plan on what and how to review during the three year intensive reform period, we would like to have the materials finally authorized by the main body of the Digital Rincho at the end of May and bring it to the Cabinet decision level in some way.

As for the audience, of course, as Mr. Uenoyama said, there are several, but one is that each ministries and agencies and the digital side will decide on the review policies for the seven regulation items, the current status of each regulation, the type and phase of the after amendment, and for those that have already been discussed in advance, we would like to reach an agreement with each ministries and agencies on how and by when the review will be conducted and what the Issue will be for that purpose, and we would like to materialize it as an action plan. In other words, I believe that an important factor is that each ministries and agencies will accumulate such agreements in the digital dialogue.

The other point is that in order to advance this, as I mentioned earlier in my talk about human resources, I believe that Technology validation and Technology Map have such aspects, but in advancing this, I would like to issue a direction on how to develop what is essential and must be used by everyone in common. In the future, it will be necessary to decide as a matter of policy within the government whether to secure resources for budget request, the Institute, and personnel requirements, and whether to newly implement and materialize digital legal affairs, so I would like to pin down such matters.

The third point is, of course, whose benefit is important. As for regulation, which was dealt with by each working group, we are showing as much as possible how much impact the rule will have and how many hundreds of thousands of people across Japan will be affected by it. In the end, we would like to show the public, the people of Japan, and business operators what kind of benefit it will be for whom.

Uenoyama Member: .

The point is that I thought it would be very different where and how much to write depending on the target, so I checked it. It is clear.
.

Vice-Chairman: , I wanted to ask Mr. Uenoyama about something. This paper, of course, is still just a draft outline, so it will expand a lot. Who should I show it to, and what kind of audience should I show it to?

What officials show to officials is a document of Kasumigaseki, so it is natural, but isn't it sad that only officials made it with such difficulty and showed it to officials?

Uenoyama Member: I see.
In that sense, it is an individual opinion, but I think that this story, which is now being carried out in the digital ad hoc system, is doing great. On the other hand, I think that there are many people who do not know it.
Therefore, I think it would be good if the recognition of the fact that we are doing this kind of thing with this kind of thought and that it is changing, and the recognition that Digital Agency is taking the lead in doing this, would spread more widely.
That's all.

Vice-Chairman: .
That's right. There doesn't have to be only 1 target.
What do you think, Nemoto-san?

Mr. Nemoto: In relation to Mr. Matsuda's remarks and the target, I would like to add that it is important to properly incorporate a mechanism such as public service ID so that policies can be measured.

I thought it was handled elsewhere, but I didn't say it earlier. If you are considering a target, it is rather important to deal with all the procedures related to a local local government in a unified manner in the form of assigning a public service ID. From the people's perspective, you can find out everything by this service no matter which local government you go to in Japan, and I think it is enough for Digital Agency to take charge of what has been established as a system. I had a feeling that there would be quite a lot of ways to do it.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
That's something we can do now.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Inadani, I'm sorry to have kept you waiting.
Yes, please.

Inadani Member: No.
It is not a big deal, but as you are saying, I am very much in favor of your proposal from the point of view that this is the first document.

In addition, as I mentioned in my first half today, I would like to say that I am a little concerned that the purpose of this proposal will change considerably depending on how the policy will be embodied in the future, such as the "Way of Agile and Flexible Policy Formulation and Evaluation" in 5, and the meaning of digital human resources that you pointed out.

In short, as I said in the first half of today, this is only the first step. If we do not give the nuance that there will be a more advanced digitalization and that it will change to that extent, the message that digitalization will change for the better will not be conveyed in the true sense, and I feel that it is a great waste.

From my personal point of view, while taking advantage of private sector's ideas, the Government of Japan, on a functional basis, as Counselor MATSUDA said earlier, will reflect and consider what it wanted to do in the end, and in the future, change the way regulation itself and achieve digitalization in the true sense of the word. From the point of view of the message that this is the first step, I do not know whether it should be written explicitly here, but I think it is possible to add that the establishment of basic laws, such as the Liability Act provided for in the Civil and Criminal Code, will also be the subject of continued consideration in the future.

In the hearings of the Working Group up to this time, I remember that there were talks from the side of private sector companies about the issue of incentives for innovation, which is that they want to provide products and services using digital technology, but they are too scared to implement it because there is a risk that their businesses will be suspended at the first opportunity if some problem occurs. On the other hand, from the side of the regulation authorities, they sincerely want to leave the management of risks to private sector, but in reality, there are companies that do not do it properly, and the sanctions are weak in the first place, so it is impossible to abolish the thin regulation and leave it to private sector companies. So, I thought it would be helpful if you could touch on these talks and touch on the concept of 5, which will lead to a review of the fundamental legal system and the law enforcement method.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
According to all of you, this is still the first pass.

So, it seems that once you cross the first pass, you have to work while imagining what kind of pass there will be next. That's tough, but you're right.

Mr. Ochiai's hand is up.

Ochiai Member: .

Rather than writing this time, in the future discussions, I would like to discuss the detailed content of the Digital Principles with the Liaison Office, as well as the arrangement of the types. While parts 1 and 2 are more detailed and contain specific actions to be taken, parts 3-5 are still somewhat abstract compared to the inspections, documents, and visual inspection that have already been advanced. For the second phase, I believe that it is an important agenda to further elaborate the third and subsequent parts.

In addition, as the level of digitalization increases, I believe it will be an important perspective to see whether there are any additional matters to be included. Today, it seemed that there would be time, so I made a comment, but I do not mean that there are any specific matters to be included at this point.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.
Certainly, it will be quite difficult to detail and materialize all of these five items at the same speed.
Thank you very much.

Have you made any comments?

Frankly speaking, I thought it would take a little more than one hour, but as usual, thank you very much for your active discussion. I think it was very productive.

I am just saying this to convince myself that digitalization is not going to change paper into digital, and I feel that it is a very big job to change the way of work, or to put it in an extreme way, the culture itself.

It is not just converting paper into digital. To put it in an extreme way, if you sit in front of a PC, you can imagine that various jobs will be completed in e-Gov. I understood well that the thoughts of all senses are put in it, and I thought that is why it is a very important sense.

Finally, this is a story including local governments, and I think that many teachers pointed out that in the end, I would have to change the way of doing business itself. This is probably the biggest challenge for any company when it comes to DX.

If I try to introduce DX according to the way I work in the field, it will be like a hot spring inn in the countryside. I don't know what is going on because people are leaving one after another.

Therefore, it is a great stress to change jobs according to the system, so it is natural to make efforts to minimize it, but it remains somewhere. Although it is a bad word, I fully felt from today's talk that there will be places where you have to adjust your feet to your shoes, or else it will not be completed.

So, I would like to say the same thing many times, but thank you very much for your active discussion.

I would now like to ask for a few words from State Minister Kobayashi.

Senior Vice Minister of Digital: Thank you very much for your active exchange of opinions.

I think I have come this far thanks to all of you, but I think the essence is what Mr. Ahn told me.

The reason why we started this digital consultation is that we have to review the entire social system of this country, in other words, we have the idea of transforming the social system. So, what is the social system of this country made of? One is the law, another big component is the administrative organization and the customs within it, and the other is the governance structure of this country and local government. These three are the big components of the social system of this country, I think.

I believe that the transformation of this area is the major mission of the Digital Strategy. We are finally seeing the digital completion of the first mountain, so if we look too far, we feel that it is far away. However, just crossing this one mountain will have a tremendous social impact, and as you showed in Technology Map, we will see that business opportunities will also be created. I hope that we can steadily cross the mountain while sharing the significance of what we are doing.

At the same time, as Mr. Uenoyama praised us, we are actually doing great things.

We are doing great things, and in fact, in the business world, there will be huge game changes, and opportunities will come. I think it is necessary to communicate firmly, and I think it will be more important to have such people participate in the future.

Mr. Matsuda is doing his best, and the members of the team are doing their best, but in the future, more specialized knowledge will be needed, and the number of human resources will be needed by the Secretariat. Therefore, I would be grateful if the disciples of the experts who are participating today would be willing to send them to the Secretariat for warrior training. Including such aspects, we will make the outline thicker and work toward completion, so please continue to cooperate.

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Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

The Senior Vice-Minister, Counselor Matsuda, and many others are making great efforts, but why are they being scolded by so many people?

Well, if you say so, I have a point where I want to say why don't you try? I think this is a complaint.

I'm sorry. I'm a little upset.

Senior Vice Minister of Digital: It's all right.
I think today's article is encouragement and expectation.

Vice-Chairman: Is that so?
Including today's article, I understand it well.
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Now, I would like to hear an explanation from the Secretariat regarding the schedule and other matters.

Secretariat (Matsuda): Thank you very much, everyone.

As for the details of the next working group meeting, the secretariat will contact you later.

As for today's proceedings, I believe that there is nothing that is not suitable for disclosure, so I would like to prepare the minutes later and disclose them after everyone checks them.

In addition, if you do not have any particular objections to today's materials, we would like to disclose all of them on the Digital Agency website.

Thank you for joining us today.

Vice-Chairman: Thank you very much.

With that, I would like to close the eighth meeting.
Thank you very much, everyone.

End