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Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee Working Group (7th)

Overview

  • Date: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 (2022) from 4:00 pm to 6:00 pm
  • Location: Online
  • Agenda:
    1. Opening
    2. Proceedings
      1. Hearing from related ministries and agencies about permanent and dedicated regulation
      2. Presentation of review policies for the typology phase (including review policies for some major regulation)
      3. Status of the digitalization Review Team for Legal Affairs
      4. Exchange of opinions
    3. Adjournment

Materials

Related Information

Minutes, etc.

Date

Wednesday, March 23, 2022 (2022) from 4:00 pm to 6:00 pm

Location

Held online

Attendees

Chairman

  • Fumiaki Kobayashi, Senior Vice-

Members

  • Junji Annen (Attorney-at-law, Professor of the Graduate School of Law
  • Tatsuhiko Inadani (Professor, Graduate School of Law, Kyoto University)
  • Katsuya Uenoyama (President of PKSHA Technology, Inc.)
  • Takafumi Ochiai (Attorney at law, Atsumi & Sakai, Foreign Law Joint Enterprise)
  • Akiko Sugawara (Managing Director and Head of Policy Planning, Keizai Doyukai)
  • Katsunori Nemoto (Senior Managing Director, Japan Business Federation)
  • Masakazu Masushima (Attorney-at-Law, Mori Hamada & Matsumoto)

Minutes

Secretariat (Osawa): Is , we will open the seventh "Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee Working Group." Thank you very much. Members are participating online today. I have heard that Member Sugawara is scheduled to be absent due to personal reasons, and Member Uenoyama is scheduled to leave the meeting in the middle of the meeting.

Also, today, as usual, each ministry and agency will participate in turn for each regulation in which you will be discussing, but only at the beginning, all the ministries and agencies that will participate today will participate.

Before the proceedings begin, I would like to receive an address from Senior Vice-Minister for Digital Affairs Kobayashi, who is the chair of the Working Group. Senior Vice-Minister, thank you very much.

Senior Vice-Minister for Digital KOBAYASHI: Thank you very much, Committee, members of each Ministry, and members of the Secretariat, thank you very much for your time today. I look forward to working with you.

With regard to Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee, we have started a cross-sectional review of law in all ministries and agencies. I believe that we have already been communicating with the Secretariat with all of you who are participating today, but I believe that what we would like to do is that even in the industries you are in charge of, there will be an overwhelming shortage of labor in the future, and we have a common awareness of this problem. On the other hand, I believe that there is a visible part in the fact that the rules that were decided in the past and did not exist in that era have been developed as technology, and the rules themselves are no longer suitable. I believe that our approach is to change the old rules together with you as much as possible.

So, I would like you to share Issue on an honest basis, and today, I would like to discuss with you, including us, from the perspective of how we can change the rules efficiently, whether people in the industry you are in charge of can develop business, and whether the work of each ministry can be done efficiently.

Today, nursing care services, travel services, and septic tanks, which are familiar to people's lives, will be taken up. If we do this well, I believe that the people of Japan will also have a positive sense that Japanese society is moving forward in response to digital technologies, and that an environment will be created in which we can tackle even greater reforms. Therefore, I would like to ask for your continued cooperation today, experts and ministries and agencies in charge.

In addition, the Secretariat will present a PHASE proposal for the categorization of regulation items based on the discussions at the Working Group and the coordination with each ministry and agency so far, and will explain the contents that have been discussed by the digitalization Review Team of the Legal Affairs Office. From the perspective of summarizing the hearings with each ministry and agency at the Working Group so far, we would like to receive positive opinions. Thank you.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is , thank you very much. We will now begin today's proceedings. I would like to ask Mr. Annen, Vice Chairman, for the rest of the proceedings. Thank you very much.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. . Today, the seventh meeting will be held on the permanent and full-time regulation. We will hear from three departments, the Health and Welfare Bureau for the Elderly of the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare, the Counselor of the Japan Tourism Agency in charge of travel promotion, and the Environmental Restoration and Resources Circulation Bureau of the Ministry of the Environment.

As the Senior Vice-Minister introduced earlier, the Secretariat is scheduled to explain the 3rd Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee Conference. First of all, Counselor Osawa of the Secretariat, please explain the purpose of today's hearing.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is Secretariat. As introduced by the Vice Chairman, there are three items for the hearing. Before the three sessions, the Secretariat will briefly explain the purpose.

First of all, a full-time regulation is a regulation that requires people to stay at the office or site at all times. For example, it is necessary for people with certain qualifications or people who have been assigned some roles in the law to stay at the place, and there are disadvantages such as teleworking not being allowed.

A full-time employee is a regulation who is not required to hold more than one position. Typically, one person is assigned to each site. If you look at the left side, I believe that a pattern in which the same person cannot hold the same position at multiple facilities, or a pattern in which a person can hold a different position at the same facility but cannot hold the same position at another facility, are both full-time regulation.

Also, a typical rule is as you can see. In the case of a full-time regulation, the operator must appoint a manager for each location. This is a typical rule. Below that, there is an appointment rule (for reference), but is there a difference between this and each location? The lower part can be selected, so one person can double as a manager for multiple facilities.

Regarding the relationship between regulation and the inspection of the Digital Principles, within the red frame, I would like to ask you to review the Digital Principles and conduct the inspection from the perspective of making digitalization the basis, including the intervention of people, that is, resident or dedicated personnel.

In terms of categorization, (1) on the left side, facilities and products are managed, quality is maintained, and mainly goods are checked. On the right side, users are protected, and mainly people are dealt with. Each of them is categorized as having a full-time or full-time employee.

The depth of the digitalization increases from PHASE1 to PHASE3. In PHASE1, it is said that resident and dedicated regulation will be imposed, but in PHASE2, regulation will be mitigated by remote monitoring devices and surveillance cameras, and in PHASE3, regulation will be eliminated by using technology. Even if we say elimination, I believe that it does not mean that there will be no qualified personnel at all, but that the state of appointment, which you saw earlier, will be aimed at for the time being in each system as necessary.

I would like to take a look at some of the previous cases. They mainly correspond to item (1). The first is the stationing of engineers at thermal power plants. These are power generation facilities that ensure monitoring equivalent to continuous monitoring, and measures are taken to ensure safe and reliable shutdown in the event of an abnormality. In such cases, continuous monitoring is not required.

Then, I would like to ask you to go to one place. As for the Technical Supervisor, which was supposed to have a dedicated person for each construction site, by assigning an assistant, one Technical Supervisor can concurrently serve multiple sites.

In addition, as shown at the bottom, the regulation for environmental health management engineers, who were required to be appointed for each specific building, has been eliminated on the premise that it will be confirmed and judged that there is no hindrance to the performance of work depending on the degree of progress of technology at that time.

On the next page, (2), mainly in response to people. In the above three, it has been clarified by the notification that teleworking is possible. In registered real estate agent, apartment management, and travel service handling administrator, which will be discussed today, teleworking is possible due to partial relaxation of the resident regulation.

With regard to the fourth type of housing for the elderly with home-care services, although it was a regulation in which a qualified person had to be permanently stationed on the site or the land adjacent to the site, this is an example in which the resident regulation was slightly relaxed in terms of area because the land is close to the site.

The relationship between pharmacists below that is to abolish the regulation during the sales time of general pharmaceuticals and the regulation that is more than half of the opening time, and to ease the resident reservation.

As for the full-time industrial physician at the bottom, by clarifying the points to be noted in the case of performing the duties of an industrial physician remotely using information and communication equipment, various duties of the industrial physician are determined more than law, but I think that the fact that the work is viewed in detail one by one and the judgment is made one by one according to each characteristic will be a reference for review in another law.

The next page is the review policies (draft). It summarizes the directions that the Secretariat is presenting to each ministry in advance. First of all, in the middle, the stationing of administrators, etc. in the long-term care service business, this is the first part of today's hearing. The second session, going to the right, is the full-time transition of the travel business handling administrator. And the full-time appointment of the septic tank technical administrator, so the Secretariat is thinking that it may be necessary to move from PHASE1 or 2 to PHASE2 or 3, respectively.

Regarding the points at issue in the comprehensive review, I will briefly explain them because they were introduced in the hearings from each ministry. First of all, with regard to the relationship of long-term care, it is "the stationing of administrators, etc. in long-term care services," and with regard to various long-term care services provided under the Long-Term Care Insurance Act, the type of job and the number of people required for each service are specified in law.

There has been a request from the business community that while maintaining the number of physical care personnel, if professionals, such as life consultant and nursing staff, can provide services using digital technology, the regulation should be eased.

The point is that there may be services that can be utilized by teleworking even if they are not stationed at the regulation, such as the preparation of administrative procedures and documents and employment management.

For functional training instructors and nurses of day services, it may be possible to simultaneously perform services targeting users of multiple facilities by using digital technology, such as live distribution of recommended exercises using video conference tools and vital check before bathing.

The third is that care managers are required to visit the homes of users at least once a month, but this has been slightly eased due to the novel coronavirus, so we are wondering if we can make this measure permanent.

In the travel business, it is required that a travel business handling administrator be assigned to each business office. In addition, it is not possible for one administrator to concurrently hold more than one office. The business community has requested that the full-time regulation for travel business handling administrators at each business office be eased.

The point presented by the Secretariat is that due to the development of digital technology, there may be operations that do not hinder the proper operation of the travel agency even if they are also engaged in such activities as the formulation of plans and the storage of records.

The third is the full-time appointment of a septic tank technical manager. There is no particular request from the business community, but in particular, for septic tanks with a capacity of more than 501 people, due to the nature of the work such as maintenance and inspection of the septic tank and supervision of cleaning work, there may be no problems if a wide range of concurrent positions are allowed through the use of digital technology. I have raised these issues. That is all from the secretariat.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. . Now, I would like to move on to the hearing. Regarding the proceedings at the hearing, I would like to ask Mr. Osawa, who has been directly communicating with each ministry and agency. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is Nice to meet you, too. We are planning to hold three sessions today, but the first session will be on "Stationing of Administrators, etc. in Long-Term Care Service Businesses."
Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare Health and Welfare Bureau for the Elderly Dementia Measures and area Long-Term Care Promotion Division, Director Sasago, please make an announcement.

Sasago Manager: Mr. Ochiai I am Sasago, Director of the Promotion Department, who was introduced to you. To get straight to the point, I believe that long-term care services is provided to support the independence of elderly people who need long-term care. There are in-home services, facility-based services, and in-home long-term care support, so-called care manager, which manages them. The number of jobs and positions to be assigned are determined according to the purpose of provision set for each service.

There are three in a row, including day care, visiting care, and in-home care support. As you can see, in day care, the manager is required not only to supervise the whole, but also to create a day care plan for each user, which is different from other managers.

In addition, as Counselor Osawa mentioned earlier as a precedent case of housing for the elderly with services, these three managers can already engage in the work of other operators if there is no hindrance, for example, within the same premises or adjacent to each other across a road.

Page 3 is an overview of the program. I will not go into detail, but basically, the minimum standards are determined by law. Along with that, on the left side of page 3, the basic service fee will be paid. On the right side, there is an addition. From the perspective of evaluating the efforts made by various efforts to provide higher-quality services, it is up to the business operator to take or not to take it.

Since the left and the right are different, the visiting care on page 4 and the in-home long-term care support on page 5 are the same. From page 6 on, the minimum standard I just mentioned, law, is lined up, so I will skip it.

From page 12, the placement criteria as the additional requirements I mentioned earlier are also based on this. As I said, the acquisition of the additional requirements is voluntary, and it does not impose an obligation on all business operators.

Please skip to page 17. There are various placement standards for managers, etc. at the top, such as those that do not require work at one business office or those that do not necessarily need to be at a business operator, etc. throughout business hours. However, the current situation is that telework is not clearly indicated in detail whether or not it is possible to telework or whether or not it is necessary to work at more than one office.

On page 18, in the nursing care field, we consider the shortage of human resources in particular to be a very serious Issue, and we are making efforts to reduce the volume of documents to half and to make them into ICT.

Based on this, on page 19, regarding PHASE, which we aim to achieve, we believe that the utilization of ICT data is extremely important, and Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare has been making certain efforts so far, for example, in the revision of long-term care fees in fiscal 2021 for the utilization of ICT, such as meetings. As written here, we will utilize medical care for activities between people involved in ICT and long-term care, and for activities in which users participate, we have been implementing it since fiscal 2021 after consulting on whether it is possible to utilize ICT with the consent of users and families.

In addition, at the bottom of page 19, the words "again" are surrounded by dashed lines, but in short, it is a situation in which the Social Security Council, which should not stop at this, but should proceed further, is also taking on assignments.

On page 20, in this way, it is said that further consideration should be made in the Deliberation Report, so our stance is to firmly consider what we can do while properly taking into account the points pointed out by the Digital Consultation.

Regarding the current regulation, one point is whether the work is directly related to the services of users or not. I think the perspective is different. As stated in the first circle, for work that is not necessarily directly related to the services of users, we would like to take necessary consideration and responses, such as clearly indicating the handling of telework, etc.

In addition, the second, ○, long-term care insurance system is funded by user fees, public expenses, and insurance premiums. Regarding services directly related to user services, based on evidence, in particular, ensuring the quality of user services, as you just introduced that the monitoring of care manager has been eased under the special provisions for the novel coronavirus, whether or not the quality is secured even if no accidents have occurred is an important point of view for both users and families.

And the burden on the staff. This is also often covered by the Social Security Council. In particular, for home-visit nursing care, there are many elderly helpers, and it is difficult for them to use the Issue. We are also worried about this. However, in some cases, the burden on the staff may increase if the ICT is introduced. Of course, we need to take these two points into consideration from a medium - to long-term perspective. I believe that it is necessary to take these two points into consideration. I believe that it is necessary to take these two points into consideration. I believe that it is necessary to take these two points into consideration. ICT

For this purpose, regarding services directly related to users' services, first of all, we will sort out the issues and Issue of the possibility of online services according to the characteristics of the service. We will understand the impact of online services by demonstration projects and hearings. Then, we will hear the opinions of the Social Security Council as necessary.

As stated below, when changing the criteria, it is a statutory matter that the opinions of the Social Security Council must be heard under the Long-Term Care Insurance Act, so it is necessary to pay attention to this. Finally, as I said earlier that I would evaluate such efforts, if the efforts increase or decrease, I believe that it is necessary to consider the ideal way of setting remuneration. That is all I have to say.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is Thank you for your concise explanation. If you have any comments or questions, please let us know. Mr. Annen, Vice Chairman, please.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. , my father, who died the year before last, has been very helpful to me, so I am really grateful for this program.

In addition, I would like to ask you a question. I am well aware that there are many elderly helpers, and the service is almost like a elderly care by the elderly. In such a case, I think it is quite possible that using IT equipment will be a burden for the people in question. Even in such a situation, I have asked only about the possibility that training on the use of IT equipment will be added. Is it possible to think in such a way?

Sasago Manager: Mr. Ochiai Reference Materials, first of all, when introducing ICT, we will properly subsidize business operators. We will use consumption tax resources, and the scope of the subsidy is quite wide, as shown in the lower right corner, and you can buy Wi-Fi equipment. In addition, I think the point is standardization and cooperation between facilities, and furthermore, for things that contribute to the database, the subsidy rate is set at a lower limit of three quarters, that is, the national and prefectural governments pay 75% or more. The implementation status is on page 27.

In addition, just using ICT does not increase productivity as you pointed out. Therefore, in order to increase productivity, it is necessary to reduce the number of documents, inventory work, and develop people who can properly use PDCA in the business efficiency within the facility. So, in addition to buying things, we have been working on such software for about four years, creating manuals and training materials. In this age, we would like to be able to share it on YouTube and other media in the future. I think it is necessary to spread it together with such a mechanism. I think you are right.

I have no idea that you are too old to leave things as they are. As I stated at the beginning, there is a shortage of human resources, particularly for home-visit nursing care, so Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare's position is to provide support by combining compensation, subsidies, and software.

However, if we can reduce the workload as a result of doing such a thing, the nursing care fee is paid for the standard workload and expenses, so it is necessary to consider it at the same time. It is quite complicated, so it is necessary to consider such a thing.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. . I think the last point is very important. In other words, if you can save time by arming yourself with ICT, the amount of the reward will decrease. If so, you must think carefully about the problem of what incentives there are. Of course, it is not something that a layman like me would say, but I think it will be a very important point. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is Kobayashi, your hand is up. What do you think?

Senior Vice-Minister for Digital KOBAYASHI: Thank you very much, Actually, I wanted to talk about that. Thank you very much to everyone at the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare for your continuous support.

A project similar to this was proposed by Sompo Care, and it was discussed that if ICT was used as the 1:3 allocation standard, there would be a company that could do as much as 4:1. The reason why we at the regulatory reform Conference were so particular was that there would be no incentive if the compensation was reduced, so I think we talked with the people of the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare (MHLW) about increasing the net income.

We will do our best to support this case as well, so even if we can see multiple locations, we would like to aim for a design where nursing care fees are not reduced by that amount, and we would like to take the same approach. I would like to confirm that this is the right direction, and in the case of 3-to-1, demonstration projects is running right now, and we would like to draw a conclusion based on the demonstration. I would like to ask you to share your image of how much rough schedule can be considered and whether any demonstration is necessary for this care manager.

Sasago Manager: Mr. Ochiai . Senior Vice-Minister, thank you for your continuous support.

The setting of nursing care fees is specified in the Long-Term Care Insurance Act. It is as guided. It is determined by taking into account standard costs. It is a legal matter.

On the other hand, the remuneration should be set while carefully taking into account the following three points: ensuring the quality of services for users, the burden on employees, which I mentioned earlier, and the business, which is not sustainable unless the business runs smoothly. That is our way of thinking.

Also, I heard about Sompo Care's proposal. Regarding demonstration projects, as you can see on page 20, I think that services provided to the person themselves and services not provided to the person themselves can be separated. Therefore, as you can see in the first column, necessary considerations will be made, such as clarifying the treatment of teleworking, so I think that the rough schedule will be relatively short.

On the other hand, with regard to matters directly related to the services of users, as stated in the third circle, we must organize the points of contention and Issue, and if necessary, make a demonstration projects. If we need to change the standards or the ministerial ordinance, as I said earlier, it is stipulated by law, and we must consult with the Social Security Council after arming ourselves with evidence or theory, so I believe that the rough schedule for the latter will be relatively long.

Senior Vice-Minister for Digital KOBAYASHI: Thank you very much, I am very grateful that you separated these two, and thank you for your positive consideration.

In the latter case, if there is a need for some kind of budget, we would like to give our full support so that we can move forward together. We look forward to your continued support.

Sasago Manager: Mr. Ochiai , nice to meet you.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is Next, Member Inadani, I would like to ask for your cooperation.

Inadani Member: . Thank you for your very interesting report.

In relation to the point that was just being discussed, I believe you said that quality assurance is important in going online, and I would like to ask you about how you will measure that point, for example. In other words, if we consider only the subjective view of the user side, it is better to have physical contact, and it is possible that digitalization is not moving forward. I would like to ask what you are thinking about as a more neutral indicator, for example, as a method of measuring the quality of long-term care services. In addition, I believe that you mentioned the perspective of the link with remuneration earlier, and in that regard, if quality can be measured, the method will change considerably, so please tell us your thoughts on that point.

In addition, I believe you have heard that some of the meetings were held online during the COVID-19 pandemic. Please tell us what kind of collateral or changes are currently understood from a qualitative perspective. Thank you.

Sasago Manager: Mr. Ochiai . In terms of quality assurance, the Long-Term Care Insurance Act, which is also written in Article 1 of the Act, requires that services be provided as insurance benefits to prevent the deterioration of the condition of the elderly in need of long-term care, to maintain it, and to determine whether it contributes to self-reliance, and to carefully consider the intentions of the users. This is written around Articles 1 and 2.

Therefore, I believe there is one thing about the satisfaction of the person, and there is also one thing about the status of the person in need of long-term care, but I believe that future consideration will be given to what kind of design will be provided for each person in Issue, so for now, I would like you to consider that quality assurance will be a design based on the purpose of such a law.

This is a special case of the COVID-19 pandemic. In any case, while ensuring that the minimum necessary services must be provided to users during the COVID-19 pandemic, we are taking quite drastic measures from the perspective of being in trouble even if business operators go bankrupt. For example, in the case of outpatient nursing care, we are doing various things as described on page 1 here, but during the COVID-19 pandemic, for example, we are doing quite drastic things such as just calling. Even if there are no problems with such things, we must carefully consider whether the purpose of the law I mentioned earlier has been fully realized.

The care manager monitors not only the condition of the person, but also the condition of the house, such as the condition of the handrail, the condition of the bathroom, whether the relationship with the family is going well, the relationship with the neighborhood, what kind of obstacles are there to the station, and many other things.

Also, depending on the condition of the users, a care manager will be available almost every day for those who are in the final stages of cancer, and since they are elderly, it is not known when there will be a sudden change. Under these circumstances, it has been decided that we should visit at least once a month. With regard to the status of special measures for the novel coronavirus pandemic, we have made a survey this fiscal year from the perspective of securing quality for business operators, and we will continue to make a firm validation on how we are securing quality. That is our stance.

Inadani Member: is a very important point in advancing this initiative, so I would like you to take a positive approach. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is Next, Mr. Ochiai, please.

Mr. Ochiai: As Mr. Nemoto said, I thought it would be good for the first point, . I heard that the points that are being evaluated and advanced in a very positive and individual manner are being discussed in a very good manner.

Originally, there are parts that were introduced on page 17, but I think there are points that have been pointed out, such as whether there are services that can be used by managers, whether they can be used by users of multiple facilities, and how to conduct interviews. One point is that we can sort out the points that we can proceed from parts such as using part of digital or doing part of dual business by separating the cases where there are parts that do not necessarily require full digitalization and the cases where digitalization alone is completely completed. I think there are good parts to this, including the meaning of conducting extensive online evaluation of evidence later.

On the other hand, as you pointed out at that time, for example, in the case of outpatient long-term care, a plan should be made for the administrator, and it may be safer to see him or her face-to-face to some extent than in the case of online medical consultation. There may be such emotional elements, but even if there are still some parts that can be done face-to-face to some extent, I think there is talk about which parts can be online. In addition, when talking on the phone, it was also online medical consultation that was doing it like a telephone in the case of the novel coronavirus, but as an emergency measure, we didn't have much time to make it possible for everyone to have a web conference, so we just substituted it for now. For this reason, when online medical consultation was made permanent, video calling became the rule. I think we will make it permanent while reviewing such parts reasonably.

I do not think it is necessary to leave everything open that was once opened as an exception during the novel coronavirus. However, it is said that it is necessary to proceed with parts of the process in a reasonable manner and to collect evidence through the process through the Council. Therefore, I believe that it is good overall to proceed with the process as soon as possible, and we will proceed with the process with your understanding. What do you think?

Sasago Manager: Mr. Ochiai , thank you very much. I think you gave me a lot of suggestions and appreciated your words.

I have just introduced the purpose of the Long-Term Care Insurance Act. In order to prevent the deterioration of the condition of long-term care need and maintain it, it is of course important to provide necessary services such as medical care services and home-visit long-term care. I believe that social participation through rehabilitation, etc. will contribute to such purpose. Therefore, I believe that it is important for elderly people to work and participate in volunteer activities.

I think you are correct in saying that the day care service over the phone is just to avoid contact with elderly people, but it is a service that leads to the happiness of elderly people because it requires a proper validation.

Also, I think you are right about the perspective of easing some of the digitalization or permanent regulation, even if only a part of it. The secretariat is drawing an arrow all the way to PHASE3 on page 7. Are there any places where we can do even a part of it? However, if you do some of it, you can telework, but it will be a burden on other employees, and there are many other things. I think it is necessary to consider it based on these things, but I would like to consider not forgetting the perspective of some of it.

Mr. Ochiai: As Mr. Nemoto said, I thought it would be good for the first point, . Of course, I think it would be great if you could proceed with the matter at once. However, there are various sites, and I think it can be understood that there are situations where face-to-face meetings are more valuable in this area than in medical care. While taking such various considerations, however, overall, in the 3-to-1 and 4-to-1 talks that the Senior Vice-Minister said, even if we simply increase the number of personnel and increase recruitment, it is not enough. Therefore, I think Issue will not be able to solve the problem unless we make it possible to deploy people reasonably at the same time. I would like you to proceed with rationalization as much as possible at the same time and strengthen human resources. I would appreciate it very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is and others? If you don't mind, I would like to end the first session here. Thank you very much to Mr. Sasago, Director of the MHLW, for attending despite your diversity.

Based on today's discussion, there is a possibility that the Working Group will request additional consideration. In that case, please tell us how to respond. Thank you very much.

In the next session, we will discuss "Full-time assignment of travel agency handling managers at travel agency business offices." I would like to have a presentation from Mr. Takahashi, Counselor of the Japan Tourism Agency. Thank you very much.

Councilor Takahashi: Tourism Agency. The person on the agenda this time is the travel agency handling manager. In a word, it is a leader who interacts with consumers with primary responsibility.

As a matter of course, there are examinations for Travel Agency Handling Managers, such as law under the Travel Agency Act, terms and conditions, and, depending on the type, both domestic and foreign travel business. They are required to have a fairly detailed knowledge and experience, and the pass rate is 20 to 30 percent even with exemptions based on business, and 10 percent with only examinations.

Under the Travel Agency Law, for the purpose of protecting consumers, as in this law, managers with such knowledge and experience at each business office should communicate with consumers responsibly. The aim is to ensure appropriate transactions.

Since the old days, travel business has had the aspect of doing business only for a fee, so it has become a law with strong consumer protection, and that has not changed even now.

In terms of real travel businesses and travel agencies, there are a little less than 10,000 companies. More than 90% of them are small and medium-sized companies. Major companies such as JTB are only a small part of the number of business operators. Small and medium-sized companies that offer travel products that can be paid online are less than 10% of such industries. In reality, on a business operator basis, most travel transactions are carried out face-to-face.

More than 70% of the travel forms handled are so-called orders or arrangements. It is said that most of them are not pamphlets that you often see, but handmade goods such as comfort trips and school trips. Fire companies and neighborhood associations are often the main members of about 70% of such industries in rural areas.

In reality, it is the usual way to visit stores and make travel products while listening to your preferences such as destination and schedule. In that sense, online contracts are made by a fairly small number of travel agents, and in rural areas, as I mentioned earlier, local managers who are familiar with the actual conditions of local communities, such as local residents' associations, shopping districts, fire departments, and schools, or who know the actual conditions of other industries, such as local tourist buses, provide explanations, make proposals, create products, and make emergency response in case of emergency.

In that sense, it is extremely important for the protection of consumers, so the Japan Association of Travel Agents and the National Association of Travel Agents, which are industry organizations, also strongly wish to maintain this program. We have sent a written request to Mr. Digital Agency, but we have sent a written request in the joint names of Mr. Takahashi and Mr. Nikai.

On the other hand, we could not tell you the actual situation of online, so-called OTA operators during our discussions with Mr. Digital Agency, so we conducted hearings with multiple operators.

The dedicated unit of the administrator that OTA is doing now is one person at the head office. It is my understanding that since there is only one business operator, it is mandatory to have only one person at the head office.

On the other hand, according to the OTA, there is an enormous amount of work nationwide, so it is not one manager, but several tens of managers. They said in their comments that if they do not have knowledge as a manager, they cannot create appropriate products due to the law or compliance as I said earlier. Therefore, they said that it is okay to have one manager, but they are recommending the acquisition of a manager and are providing incentives for that.

In addition, some OTAs do not register as travel agents because they are not travel agents in the first place and simply rent out space. This is legal, but these companies are not obliged to have administrators in the first place, but the hearing result was that they also have dozens of administrators from the viewpoint of appropriate business operation.

According to him, the contract for OTA is online, but the customer response before and after the contract is done by phone or e-mail, and the response is naturally done by a team with an administrator qualification.

In addition, we have received comments that it is essential to have a manager who is in charge of business operations according to the amount of business, not whether it is an OTA or not, because people with manager qualifications are in charge of building online sites, disclaimer, and checking the status of law observance.

In that sense, in light of the actual state of travel business in recent years, including OTA, I understand that the need for an administrator has not changed, and that rather than one administrator per business office, depending on the amount of business, multiple administrators have been established in the head office, not one administrator. I would like to tell you about this.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is . If you have any comments or questions, please let us know. Thank you, Mr. Masushima.

Masujima Member: . My name is Masashima. I would like to ask you one thing. You said that most of them are small travel companies, but I think many of them basically have only one store.

Councilor Takahashi: That's right. In reality, most of them are family-run businesses in which the father and mother double as bus drivers.

Masujima Member: , there is only one sales office, and there are small companies. This is the situation.

Councilor Takahashi: I think it is correct to think that that is most of the cases.

Masujima Member: I see. I'm sorry I don't know much about the actual situation. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is Next, Member Inadani, please.

Inadani Member: . Nice to meet you.

I would like to ask one question. I believe you mentioned consumer protection. I understand very well the specific content of it, or rather, its image, and the fact that it is impossible to provide appropriate explanations unless there are many people with such expertise. However, I would like to ask you to explain more about the relationship between the method of regulation and consumer protection that must be established at each sales office.

From the perspective of consumer protection, I would like to ask you about the relationship between the concept of consumer protection that you have in mind and the method of regulation in which one person works at several offices, or how to explain the content is devised, or whether it is better to centralize the work by, for example, an experienced person in another way. Therefore, it is written that each business office must have a specialist, and that a specialist cannot work at more than one office. Therefore, it is necessary to place one specialist at each business office.

Councilor Takahashi: As I explained orally earlier, as I said, in most cases, it is a family-run business, and one's own company also has a bus license, and such a company arranges comfort trips and school trips for local fire departments and residents' associations.

In this context, I believe that the posting and other obligations you just mentioned can be partially replaced by digital means. However, in the case of the ski bus accident in Karuizawa, which is an extreme example, the travel agency purchased a cheap bus company, and the schedule was unreasonable. To put it bluntly, the travel agency bought a cheap bus company and caused the accident. As the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, which is in charge of both the travel agency and the bus operator, has been taking measures against safty and security for a long time, and the former minister visited us in January and we had a fight. I believe that there are parts that can be replaced by digital means, such as the explanation of the terms and conditions of transaction in Item 4 of the Ordinance for Enforcement of the Travel Agency Act, the Issue of documents, and the processing of complaints.

In that sense, in the course of creating products, they are working with school teachers and firefighters who come to the counter to figure out what kind of route to take while looking at the area. In that sense, it is necessary to know the actual situation in area. Therefore, we believe that it is necessary to have a full-time staff at each sales office to check each trip from the perspective of legality, appropriateness, and security by people who know the actual situation in area and have taken the test and have a certain amount of knowledge and experience.

Of course, there is also the workload, and even if one person checks, if the workload increases to a certain extent, it will be difficult to complete it within business hours.
It is difficult to understand the actual situation of business in Tokyo, but is it correct to understand that such a thing is common in local areas?

Inadani Member: . One thing, I may be persistent, but you just mentioned area. Is it area, the travel destination, that you are familiar with the characteristics of area, not area, where you have a travel contract? According to your story, I felt that the ski bus thing was rather related to the story of the travel destination, so I felt that it was not related to area, where you have a travel contract.

Councilor Takahashi: If anything, I think we should make it while taking into account the needs of consumers, such as which bus company to use and which school has been here before.

Inadani Member: I see. So, do you mean that something like a connection with people in the area is necessary?

Councilor Takahashi: That is quite an essential part, and regardless of whether it is good or bad, it is the actual state of travel that the same travel agency has been taking care of school trips for a long time.

Inadani Member: .

Secretariat (Osawa): Is Next, I would like to ask you, Ochiai Member.

Mr. Ochiai: As Mr. Nemoto said, I thought it would be good for the first point, . In your explanation this time, I believe that many travel agents are very small business operators. However, on the other hand, you said that most of them are small business operators, but I don't think they are necessarily all. So, if anything, there may be one or two people, or there may be many cases where there is little relationship in the case of family business. However, for example, looking at the statistics of travel agents, it seems that some are limited to area, and some have a type of business in every prefecture. I generally think that such business operators are more likely to be large, but I think that there are business operators with a certain scale, even if they are not famous, such as JTB, of course, but the needs of such people may be different if I ask them. I would like to ask what this is actually about.

In addition, regarding the work of the manager, in relation to other business laws, for example, I think that there are cases where it is decided that it is sufficient to ensure that people with appropriate knowledge and experience can be secured within the company according to the appropriate amount of work, not necessarily on a business office basis. I do not think that it is possible to discuss that it is fine to be absent from the company at all, but nevertheless, I think that there may be a separate option for whether or not to link it to each business office. I would like to ask what you think about this point. That is all.

Councilor Takahashi: : First of all, area is the only place that is allowed, but one thing is that this is a very exceptional admission that there is enough time to look at the very small amount of money handled, on the premise that the plan is made together with local government and there is public involvement.

In addition, in terms of whether there is actually a request, we are hearing from the business community that it is OK to have one person for each business operator. If you read it normally, it is that if you put your real name, but it may be OK to have one person for a major travel agency, and I think it is difficult to think about it in a normal way.
Instead, I believe it was proposed by Digital Agency that I could concurrently serve as the head of each branch office. I have held many hearings with the operators of both the real and OTA, and we have sat down with them to discuss whether it is really necessary. I have received the response I just mentioned. I thought it would be better to say it in their own words rather than in our own words, so I have conveyed that message as it is.

In addition, I believe that you are right about the appropriate unit for each. I believe that each appropriate unit will be dedicated, but I believe that this has become relatively natural. One thing you mentioned in your earlier question was that a local family business run by a father and a mother would not be able to hold more than one position, and the customers would feel strange.

In the case of large companies, each branch has its roots in area and is engaged in work related to local governments, such as hometown tax payments, as well as vaccination and other work while receiving orders. In that sense, I believe that it is the decision of each large company to establish a branch in a local area and to appoint a person in charge.

One thing you mentioned that I think we need to sort out in the future is OTA. Of course, they have only one business office in concept, and there is no business office as understood by this law in concept, so in reality, it is not enough to have one person at the head office for proper business management, but I think the reality is that they are encouraging people to acquire qualifications through self-help efforts, assigning managers according to the amount of business, and organizing customer teams. I think there is naturally room for the government to consider such a matter in the future.

Mr. Ochiai: As Mr. Nemoto said, I thought it would be good for the first point, Thank you very much. For example, when we think about the case of opening a branch office, is it inconceivable that there are two administrators in the prefectural capital, one of whom is also an administrator of another core city, and the other of whom is an administrator of the prefectural capital?

Councilor Takahashi: : We actually want to know whether such a request has actually been made, and of course, we do not want to know the person who has made the request. For example, we asked him how he would like to ease the regulation, including the proposal you just mentioned, and he said that he has no particular request for easing the regulation. Therefore, I believe that we will not move in a constructive direction unless we clarify and discuss what kind of scheme is assumed to use the manager in the decision to open a branch office as a large company as you just mentioned, assuming that such a business as you just mentioned has also requested easing.

Mr. Ochiai: As Mr. Nemoto said, I thought it would be good for the first point, I see. Thank you very much. I thought that the direction of thinking itself would not change much up to the appropriate number of people, but I also do not understand the original request itself, so I thought that it would be better if the secretariat could supplement it. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is To make a supplementary point, what the Secretariat is aware of is that, for example, even if you want to send the manager of a store that has been temporarily closed due to the novel coronavirus to another store, it is difficult to respond flexibly because there is a restriction that the managers of multiple stores cannot serve concurrently. For example, in the case that a customer from Tokyo is going to Okinawa, even if you consult with the staff of the local store who is familiar with the situation in Okinawa and apply for the travel, if the ticket is eventually received near your home, you must have a manager at each store. Because the managers are different, you must deliver the ticket within the company. Is it possible to be flexible about that? That is what we are hearing.

Councilor Takahashi: As for the former, as I explained to you the other day, we understand that there is no business office there as long as it is closed, so it is fine to transfer it to another store temporarily.
Regarding the second point, I felt that the delivery within the company was a little different from what the manager said, so if you could give me the details, I would like to see it again.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is I understand. Thank you in advance.

Senior Vice-Minister for Digital KOBAYASHI: Thank you very much, By the way, the former point you mentioned earlier can be done if the interpretation becomes clear in the original rules.

Councilor Takahashi: You are right. We understand that business offices are, of course, business offices that are open, so if they have closed, they can be transferred. Of course, if you ask us, we will respond in that way.

Senior Vice-Minister for Digital KOBAYASHI: Thank you very much, .

Secretariat (Osawa): Is and others? If you don't mind, we will end this session here. Thank you very much to Mr. Takahashi, Counselor of the Japan Tourism Agency, for attending despite your busy schedule.
Based on today's discussion, there is a possibility that the Working Group will contact you for additional examination request. In that case, we would appreciate your response.
Now, I would like to return the proceedings to Vice Chairman Yasune. Thank you very much.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Now, I would like to start the second half of the session. As in the first half, I would like to ask Mr. Osawa, Counselor, to proceed with the hearing.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is In the next session, "Full-time Manager of Purification Tank Technology" will be on the agenda. I would like to ask Mr. Tsutsui, Director of the Proper Disposal Promotion Division of the Ministry of the Environment.

Manager Tsutsui: . I'm a full-time technical manager of septic tanks. Regarding the relationship of full-time technical managers of septic tanks, the base law is Article 10, Paragraph 2 of the Septic Tank Act. Article 10 of the Septic Tank Act stipulates that the manager of a septic tank of the scale specified by Cabinet Order, that is, a septic tank with more than 501 tank operators, must have a technical manager who has the qualifications specified by the Ordinance of the Ministry of the Environment.

In this way, it is just that it must be placed by law, but in the lower enclosure, it is written in the notice of 1986 that the technical manager is appointed by the septic tank manager in principle to be a full-time manager for each facility, but this does not apply to cases where it is recognized that the technical manager can patrol within the working hours of a day and can substantially perform the full-time management of the facility. In this, the full-time principle is placed.
In addition, if it is difficult to secure a technical manager depending on the actual conditions of the area, it is stipulated that there is no hindrance to the manager of the septic tank securing a certain degree of command authority and appointing a technical manager from among qualified persons belonging to the commissioned maintenance and inspection company.

It is the purpose, background, and actual situation of regulation. As for the purpose, in this case, it is a large septic tank, a septic tank with a capacity of more than 501 people, that is required to be a technical manager. A large septic tank is a water treatment facility, so it must be maintained and managed to ensure the quality of the effluent water.

Because of its large size, the equipment is diverse, and the treatment process is complex. Therefore, it is necessary to have engineers who can understand the nature of the wastewater and the treatment system, maintain and manage it properly, and discharge it in an appropriate water quality.

Furthermore, septic tanks with a capacity of 501 people or more are subject to regulation as specified facilities under the Water Pollution Control Law, so such a relationship is also necessary.

For this reason, it is necessary to appoint a technical manager who has a high level of technical knowledge in the maintenance and management of septic tanks.

In the 1986 notification, as I mentioned earlier, it is stated that it is a full-time principle, but under certain conditions, it is possible to hold more than one position and to outsource. In reality, in many cases, it is outsourced to an external maintenance and inspection company. In a small number of cases, a technical manager is appointed within the organization of the company.

And if it is entrusted to a maintenance and inspection company, it is a situation that it is common to take charge of multiple facilities as much as it can manage.
This is an outline of the system. In short, the technical manager has the authority to perform comprehensive management because a large septic tank with a capacity of 501 people or more requires technical management. At the bottom, as a qualification requirement, a person who has the qualification of a septic tank manager is selected.

As the current PHASE and the target PHASE, the current status is Type 2 of PHASE2. As I have mentioned, the law and the notice specify that the septic tank manager must have a technical manager with the specified qualifications, and under certain conditions, they are allowed to hold more than one position or to be entrusted. Therefore, although there is no strict dedicated regulation for technical managers, the notice in 1986 shows the principle of dedicated service for each facility. The use of digital technology is not specified.

Considering the actual situation of the work of the Technical Manager and the utilization of digital technology, PHASE aims to be in a situation where it is not impossible to fulfill the responsibilities of the Technical Manager unless it is in the form of a full-time rule. Therefore, we would like to review the 1986 notification and delete the full-time rule for each facility and the regulation for patrol during working hours of one day, and appoint a Technical Manager to the extent that he / she can substantially manage the septic tank of the target facility.

Finally, I would like to summarize the current situation and the proposed response policy. As I mentioned earlier, the response policy is to review the notification, and it will be clearly stated that the appointment of a technical manager will be made to the extent that the facility can be substantially managed by utilizing digital technology, etc. As a proposed schedule, after confirming the current situation and hearing from the industry in the spring of next fiscal year, fiscal 1992, we would like to review and issue the notification early in next fiscal year or fiscal 1992. That is all.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is . If you have any comments or questions, please let us know.
Thank you, Mr. Masushima.

Masujima Member: : Thank you very much. Thank you for your very easy-to-understand explanation. How do you expect the proposed response to change the practice? Or do you mean that the request will be responded to if the wording is corrected, saying that it will not have any impact because it has already been outsourced? Please tell us how to interpret this.

Manager Tsutsui: As I explained earlier, the notice says that contractors can appoint qualified people, so in reality, many of them are already in this form, so I don't think there will be much change.
However, I am thinking that the scope will be expanded by rewriting the principle of exclusive engagement.

Masujima Member: purification tank, and inspection is performed in addition to the large 501 items. I would like to ask what specific technologies are being introduced by the people of regulation in order to make the legislation more efficient, such as ensuring that there are no strange microorganisms, which is the original purpose of private sector.

Ministry of the Environment Purification Tank Promotion Office: In terms of what kind of technology is actually used at the site for efficiency, it may be better to first explain what is actually done at the site, such as maintenance and inspection of the actual purification tank.

In the case of maintenance and inspection, we will check whether the septic tank is operating properly, and if there is a problem, for example, a strange smell is coming out, we will check whether it is operating properly, and if there is something that needs to be improved, we will respond on the spot. For example, if there is something stuck in the tank or if there are impurities, we will remove them.

In terms of cleaning, we actually use a vacuum car to pull out the sludge that has accumulated in the septic tank and has not been decomposed.

I understand that various efforts are being made for efficiency. For example, I have heard that there are cases in which people are making it easier to understand the situation later by inputting the situation electronically on a tablet or the like. However, I believe that the industry as a whole is still in a situation where such efforts are still to be made, as it is more of a traditional work. That is all.

Masujima Member: : At the moment, design in regulation are supposed to be inspected only depending on the scale, and people are supposed to be stationed there. Large things have a large impact, so I think they are made a little heavier. I think the regulation's installation and mechanism may or may not be efficiency. We are calling for the end of full-time regulation, so we are consulting with each ministry and agency on what measures can be taken if there is such a thing. Essentially, what we want to do is efficiency. If technology can be used there, we should make it possible to use it more and more. If people have to be there, it is likely to hinder efficiency, so we should do something about it first. We are thinking about how to take a horizontal look at the whole situation with this approach.

Can you give us your opinion on what is the best framework for the oversight necessary to keep water clean under the Act on Special Measures Concerning Private Sewerage Systems? What is the best way to set these rules? There is no better way than the problem of the system itself, which is a large-scale and medium-scale inspection and people. It is like a Ukami.

Ministry of the Environment Purification Tank Promotion Office: Thank you very much. The purpose of this hearing was to be a technical administrator, so we have prepared materials in response to that, but I took it as a question from a broader perspective.

I took this as a question about what you can think of for the efficiency of various operations of the septic tank, such as maintenance and inspection as I mentioned earlier and cleaning. To be honest, there are some parts that I cannot say in a word, but in the last fiscal year, for example, in terms of maintenance and management, we reviewed the frequency of maintenance and inspection. For example, in the case of remote monitoring using remote monitoring technology, the frequency of maintenance and inspection can be extended from once every two weeks to once every month. In fact, this was done based on the request for regulatory reform from the manufacturer.

Therefore, we are responding to various needs while receiving them. The general direction of the septic tank is case-by-case, and the situation is quite different between a small septic tank for household use and a large septic tank for more than 501 people, which is the theme of this meeting. I believe that it is necessary to consider each specific issue based on such factors. That is all.

Masujima Member: In that case, it is OK to say that there are various differences between large and small ones, such as technical specifications. Although a line is drawn between 501 and, the required management level and knowledge level are different.

Ministry of the Environment Purification Tank Promotion Office: Yes. That's right. If it is a household type, it is easy to do and the frequency of inspection is longer. However, if it is a large type, as Mr. Tsutsui said earlier, it is a facility subject to the Water Pollution Control Act, and various regulation items are required, so the treatment differs greatly. There are also significant differences in the number.

Manager Tsutsui: , I would like to add that, as I said, a facility with a capacity of 501 people or more is a specified facility under the Water Pollution Control Act, so it has a very wide range. For example, water treatment facilities at maritime airports such as Kansai Airport fall under the definition of a large septic tank, and a facility with a capacity of 501 people or more includes large condominiums and developers. It is characterized by a very wide range, so it is difficult to say that it is uniform.

Masujima Member: That's about 10000 facilities. I see. Thank you very much. I learned a lot.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is , please.

Mr. Ochiai: As Mr. Nemoto said, I thought it would be good for the first point, asked quite a few questions, so I understood the situation and learned a lot, but I would like to ask you one more thing. Originally, I think there was a case in the past where it was arranged that it was okay to have more than one place if it was a contractor, but what kind of consideration and discussion was there at that time and how was it arranged? I think that this point was discussed by the Ministry of the Environment, which is a precedent in this field, so when you took various interim measures, we thought it would be helpful to understand how you thought about them, so I asked you a question.

Ministry of the Environment Purification Tank Promotion Office: With regard to your question, it was 1986, which was quite a long time ago, when the notification was made clear to include the contractor. To be honest, it is quite difficult to find out what kind of discussion there was at that time. In fact, the Purification Tank Law itself was established in 1983, and it was previously positioned as a treatment facility under the Waste Disposal and Public Cleansing Law. However, it was separated and became independent under the Purification Tank Law, and at that time, a technical manager was brought in.

As far as I can tell, waste disposal facilities receive the same level of regulation as the incineration plant possessed by municipalities, but there are actually a large number of septic tanks, and such a level of regulation was not required. Perhaps because of this, in compiling the 1986 Notice, I believe that the Notice clearly stated the names of contractors and multiple employees. This is a conjecture, and may not be accurate, but that is all.

Mr. Ochiai: As Mr. Nemoto said, I thought it would be good for the first point, I understand. Thank you very much. I heard that there is a possibility that it was thought that there might be room for a little arrangement, which would be beneficial in practice, when considering the balance between the weight of roles required in relation to similar regulation. I thought that it is true that when there are multiple regulation, we may discuss them in such a comparative manner. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is , nice to meet you.

Inadani Member:

Manager Tsutsui: As I said earlier, we do not know much about the situation at that time, but in reality, the capacity of 501 people came from places such as condominiums where large-scale development was carried out, and in reality, it is possible to see more than one place, and there are places where we have to leave it to contractors. Based on this reality, I believe that the notification for 1961 was issued with such a system.

Inadani Member: . If there are such actual needs and there is a need to move toward efficiency more and more, as you are planning to do this time, I heard that you will reorganize the principles and exceptions and move toward efficiency more. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Osawa): Is and others all right? In that case, we will end the current session here. Thank you very much for attending, Mr. Tsutsui, Director of the Ministry of the Environment.
Based on today's discussion, there is a possibility that the Working Group will contact you for additional examination request, so please respond in that case.
In that case, I would like to ask all the members of the three ministries and agencies who participated today to leave the room. At this point, I would like to return the proceedings to Vice Chairman Annen. Thank you.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Thank you very much for your hard work. Next, the Secretariat will make a presentation on the matters to be reported at the 3rd Digital Extraordinary Administrative Advisory Committee scheduled to be held on the 29th of this month. Councilor Matsuda will make a presentation on "Inspection and Review of Compliance with the Digital Principles," and Councilor Suga will make a presentation on "digitalization of Legal Affairs." Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Matsuda): Thank you very much. I would like to explain the "Draft Basic Policy on the Typology and Phase Draft in the Inspection and Review of Compliance with the Digital Principles." This has already been considerably discussed by the Working Group, but one of the missions originally requested by the main body of Digi-in to the Working Group was to finalize the Typology and Phase Draft at the end of March, so this has been arranged this time.

First of all, on page 1, I would like to briefly describe the background of the coordination thus far. We have conducted three rounds of opinion inquiries to the Cabinet Office and each Ministry: the first round (January), the second round (February), and the third round (March).

I believe that the Working Group is deepening its discussions while discussing the types, phase proposals, and specific applications, including the points you pointed out the other day.

In addition, although some adjustments are still being made regarding the application of regulation and other matters, at the end of March, first of all, the basic idea is to apply 5,000 provision plus alpha based on this type.

*However, as we proceed with inspections and reviews going forward, if it is true that it would be better to divide the types, I believe that the Working Group will hold additional discussions and adjust the types and phases, but I would like to set the basic framework once.

On page 2, this is related to the discussions on periodic inspections and other matters last time, but first of all, in visual inspection, it is written that the remote collection of information and the evaluation by humans will be digitalization until the judgment in PHASE2 and PHASE3.

The third page is about the application, which was applied by the Working Group. There is a note at the top of the page, but if the Issue issue confirmed by the Working Group is resolved firmly, the Secretariat believes that it will be possible to advance PHASE, and it is possible to change from PHASE1 to PHASE 2 and 3.

Page 4 has been slightly revised from the previous version. In PHASE2, as Dr. Masushima and others pointed out today, in the first place, not only the rationalization of the current regulation but also the consideration of a new regulation will be conducted, and in PHASE2, how to achieve the regulation objectives by utilizing digital technology will be properly discussed and organized. In this process, PHASE2 will first be positioned as a phase in which the rationalization of the current regulation and the active utilization of private sector technology will be advanced, and in PHASE3, the ultimate goals will be to abolish third party inspections, abolish periodic voluntary inspections, and so on. In the middle stage, the goal will be to extend the inspection cycle. That is how PHASE3 is organized.

On page 5, it was discussed by the Working Group, and I think the Secretariat can do it. It is arranged by each ministry and agency in the Working Group, and it is arranged that it can be done if we advance investment in technical validation and systems.

On page 6, regarding the categorization of resident / dedicated regulation, as you are discussing today, first of all, PHASE1 is the current situation, and PHASE2 is about rationalization through digital technology. PHASE3 states that it may not be necessary to impose resident / dedicated regulation itself in the end.

Page 7 is the application of that. I believe that there are places that need to be reviewed based on the results of today's meeting, but we are sorting out the points that you just discussed.

At the end of page 8, there is the categorization of written notice, In-person Courses, and regulation for viewing and public inspection. Regarding this, PHASE1 enables the intervention of paper and people, and PHASE2 enables a means that conforms to digital principles. Since PHASE3 is based on digital completion, for example, in the case of the qualification examination, not only can you take a course online, but you can apply for the course online, and you can digitally issue a certificate of completion of the course, so we have organized the entire series of digitalization as PHASE3. This is based on the discussions at the Working Group so far on page 9.

I would like to ask the working group to organize the categorization and report it to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs at the end of March, and then I would like to request each ministry to apply the categorization by the next time. That is all.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. . Then, I would like to discuss this first. Next, Mr. Suga, please.

Secretariat (Suga): With regard to the first point on Next, I would like to report on the status of consideration by the digitalization Review Team of the Legal Affairs Office. Thank you very much to the members of the Working Group for participating in the team's discussions from time to time.

On page 2, as I indicated at the Ad Hoc Consultations held at the end of this year, we are considering the regulation of legal affairs from the perspective of what is necessary for the review of the digitalization regime, which is currently being conducted through the Digital Ad Hoc Consultations, to be maintained as a permanent function of the Government.

On page 3, our awareness of the problem is how the government can create a system and process to autonomously and efficiently confirm the conformity of the digital principles. Also, since the government cannot do it alone, if we want to cooperate between the public and private sectors to cover the entire rules, we must first realize a situation in which the latest provisions are always available in digital form, and we need to discuss how to divide the roles between the public and private sectors in providing master data for law.

On page 4, among the various requests from the business community, we received a request that the original copy of official gazettes should always be paper. We recognize that disclosure and reuse of data are priority items, and I believe that this is one of the efforts to respond to this request.

I would like to start with the details on page 5. Broadly speaking, the digitalization Study Team of the Legal Affairs Office is considering two options for Issue.

First, I would like to ask you to discuss the process and system for confirming compliance with law's Digital Principles by dividing into three points.

Page 7 is the first point. First of all, if we apply the digital principle, I think it is very important for each ministry to autonomously realize that the rules under their jurisdiction may also need to be updated and correct them. Therefore, the Digital Rincho will clearly present specific guidelines. Moreover, it is important to ensure autonomy and predictability by deciding and providing them after thorough public discussion, rather than deciding them on their own.

Page 8: Digital Technology. As discussed by the Working Group, at present, we believe that these are promising technologies that can be used for regulation reviews. However, as technology progresses, technologies listed on the map will be added, and we would like to start the regulation review by incorporating such knowledge into the guidelines.

Page 9 is the second point of the discussion. It is about how to incorporate the inspection into the legislative process created by law. Regarding the bills and cabinet orders that are subject to the examination by the Cabinet Legislation Bureau, it would be good if we could check them in Digital Agency before the examination by the Cabinet Legislation Bureau, in time for the review. On the other hand, it would be inconvenient if we were to see all of them at the Digi-cho, but it would be a bottleneck. Therefore, I believe that it would be desirable as a normal process to confirm the contents of the ministerial ordinances and below before each ministry makes a policy decision based on the guidelines, and to confirm the contents of the Pub Com before the Pub Com.

It is page 10. It was about a new law earlier, but on the other hand, the review of the existing law, which is currently being inspected by the Digi-in Secretariat, must be continued in accordance with technological progress. With regard to the existing law, it is very important how to create and understand the beginning of the review. For example, when the Technology Map is renewed due to technological progress, when the request is made by the people and industry, or when the status of execution is periodically checked, someone needs to notice that this is not good. At this point, I believe that it is desirable for Digital Agency to be responsible for conducting an inspection after public consideration of such an beginning.

On page 11, once the legislation is settled, we will enter the design Process of enforcement. I believe it is extremely important for the people concerned, not only the authorities but also the people concerned, to gather and coordinate in advance what kind of procedures are optimal for enforcement, what kind of system is necessary, who needs to work together, and who should have what kind of system to turn it around. In order for Digital Agency to take the lead in the enforcement coordination process, I would like to clarify the process based on the development policy for the system and the guidelines shown in Issue 1 for the entire system. public office local government

Page 12 shows the timeline for advancing this process. I believe that this must be finally reported to the Cabinet Office as a draft of the process. The guidelines will be drafted by the Digi-cho and discussed in public. The legislative process and the executive adjustment process will be included in this year's Priority plan. Necessary parts will be approved by the Cabinet, and the construction of the budget request and the system will be carried out sequentially. I hope that the permanent functions will be firmly established during the three years or so of the intensive reform period, including the experimental confirmation by the Digi-cho of some of the bills to be submitted to the Ordinary Session of the Diet in fiscal 2024 at the earliest.

The second question is about Issue from page 13. How will the master data of law be provided? On page 14, there is currently no legal basis for the method or timing of the promulgation of the digital original copy of law. Therefore, I believe that it should be clearly positioned to realize a situation in which the latest data is always available to the public at the same time as the promulgation. I believe that the law data to be publicized should aim to be in a format and content that is easy for the people to use, rather than being impossible for humans to read or machines to read.

Page 15 shows the status of the current law update.

On page 16, the first point is that in order to realize this, it is necessary to apply BPR to the legislation itself, and the most important of all is to reduce human intervention. If you create a document in a different format over and over again, mistakes will occur. So, I would like to set a goal of how to minimize manual data conversion.

In that case, for example, the formats of official gazettes and e-LAWS do not need to be different, so we are considering whether it is possible to unify them, or whether it is possible to create an editor called development that will allow people who create laws to edit law in a format as close as possible to after amendment.

On page 17, we have identified the points where people are involved in the current legislation, so how can we review each of them? On page 18, the format of the law database, which is now called a revised text, is also official, but after we thoroughly discuss whether it is a highly readable data format for both humans and machines, I would like to explore the optimal data format together with the editor development. In the future, when we want to realize an environment in which machine-readable rules are disclosed and automatically executed, and simulations can be performed, we would like to discuss more advanced data. That is all.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. . You have presented us with very ambitious plans for each of them. I love reading reform texts. I think it is a bit of a strange hobby, but I feel sad when I think that it will disappear. I don't care about that.

Thank you very much.

I would like to hear your opinion on the current presentation other than whether you like the revised text. Please feel free to ask anyone.

May I ask one thing? You made a box. The fact that you made a box is completely epoch-making, but of course, the first task is to have the ministries and agencies in charge insert what they are going to do into the box. Next, of course, you must not stay in the box, but you must move to the next box as much as possible. You must feel that you cannot stay in the box. What specific measures can you take?

Secretariat (Matsuda): I think this is a very important point, and in fact, we are working on about three things that can be done. One is not just discussions on the categorization, but once it has been arranged to a certain extent, I think it was around last month, and the Secretariat is creating a plan on how far you can go from where you can, and sending it to each department. I think this is also a kind of epoch-making thing, and I was wondering if it could be done, but I asked each team to create it, and then I sent it to each department. At the end of the day, I started to exchange opinions about whether it is really good or not, and whether it is really good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not, and whether it is good or not

The other point is that as for communication with each ministry, I believe that it is necessary for each ministry and division in charge to communicate with each other in a very detailed manner. For example, depending on the bureau in the Secretariat or the ministry, I think it is necessary to ask them to work together on the law Compilation of the bureau and how far they can go in the end. In the end, as I heard from the Working Group, I think it is necessary that there is a plus factor when we do it, such as the budget for technology validation and system investment.

If you have any other guidance or opinions, I would like to consider it while receiving various inputs.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. . After all, we have to come up with various means to make you feel like that. Thank you very much for thinking about various things. Was Mr. Masushima's hand up?

Masujima Member: In fact, it was a point of contention in the other subcommittee, and there is a story of a sentence to be revised that you like. According to the scholar, the sentence to be revised is one of a kind and very important, and in order to maintain convenience for users, users here are marked with a * mark, and I think they are researchers, but in order to ensure convenience, the sentence to be revised must be retained. I understand that you asked this opinion.

I could not judge whether this was a fair statement or not, and for researchers, I would like to leave aside the question of whether researchers are the users of the sentence to be revised, and I would be grateful if you could give me your opinion from the viewpoint of the importance of the sentence to be revised for research.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. I have nothing to do with it. It's exactly the same as just liking antiques as a hobby. Because now, laws and government ordinances passed by the Legislative Bureau are revised, but ministerial ordinances are already presented as completed forms, and the parts with double lines are revised. That's all.

Masujima Member: : Thank you very much. When you said that it is extremely important in terms of legislation, I think that the Ministerial Ordinance has been canceled, and I just asked if there were any problems after the Ministerial Ordinance was canceled. Is it okay to say that you did not say such a strange thing?

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. It is correct to say that it is okay or not.

Masujima Member: Are you all right? I wonder if the teachers are using the revised text to perform esoteric arts. You say that it is important, so I wanted to know what kind of things are there, but I couldn't ask you directly, so I talked to the teacher.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. It's not like I'm the only one who talks, but I have worked on retrofitting everything related to nuclear reactors, which is originally a Ministry of International Trade and Industry ordinance, and there is a Ministerial Ordinance on Technical Standards, and the text to revise it has been revised many times, but I don't think it is necessary at all. I had a very high sense of self-satisfaction and achievement. That's all. Mr. Masushima is 100% correct in his opinion. It doesn't matter.

Masujima Member: I'm sorry. If you are familiar with the sentence to revise, I have a feeling that it may be so. Thank you very much.

Secretariat (Yagyu): May I have a few words from the Secretariat?

I was wondering if I would receive the usefulness of the revised text from the professors of legal informatics. The professors are not saying that I should maintain the revised text. When making the revised text, there are parts that are taken semantically. In the end, when changing the title of a law, it is basic to change the name of the law as it is, not to take it in parts. The revised text is not just taking differences, but it also contains parts that express the content that is being revised or express it in a straightforward manner. The purpose and content of the law revision are included in the revised text. Regarding the fact that the purpose and content of the law revision are lost, isn't it a lack of information? That is exactly what is written as information that can be processed in the revised text. Rather than maintaining the revised text, I was saying that I should make sure that the content and information expressed in the revised text can be taken in any different format. Therefore, the awareness of the problem that Professor Masushima is saying is not particularly different from that of the professors of legal informatics. Therefore, I have not been here today, so I have made an administrative supplement. Excuse me.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. You are right, but if you mechanically take the difference between before and after, it will be a sentence that will be revised by itself, so you can do what you can do with a machine. That's all. Thank you very much. Would you like anything else?

Inadani Member: amendment as it was. In addition, I believe that it is an important function to keep the function of the annotation in a form that can be accessed by the people. For example, the French law site and Register France are also able to track how each law has been amended up to the present.

Therefore, it is desirable to eliminate the part of the law revision work or the revision procedure itself for the time being so that it can be completed more quickly. I think it is very important to maintain a track so that the completed text can be released quickly. On the other hand, I think that there is a problem that it is difficult to fly to law for annotation. Whether or not we will do that in this work, if we create a system so that annotation can be easily flown, I feel that it will increase practical access to law. As you may already know, let me tell you that there are examples of foreign countries doing such a thing. I myself do not think that the sentence method itself should be protected, but I think that the function of annotation is necessary in some form. I hope there will be no misunderstanding on that point.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. , please.

Secretariat (Suga): With regard to the first point on Now, in the first place, after the establishment of law, there is no function or process for the parties concerned to gather and coordinate whether it is actually better to use this system or to refer to this base registry in order to optimize execution.

What I am proposing this time is whether we can firmly position a process in which everyone gathers together once by summarizing how the system will be structured, how the system will be structured, and how the procedures will be decided by the lower law below the ministerial ordinance. I believe that we must consider in the future when Digital Agency will call for it and how to identify the parties concerned, but first of all, I am proposing to create a new process.

Inadani Member: . I think this is a very important function, and I think it is essentially a function of revolutionary importance. It may be a personal impression, but I think that until now, each law has been pursuing the legal purpose of each law separately. In other words, in order to realize the larger purpose of the system as a whole in a consistent manner, I think that there has been no process until now on how to consider the actual enforcement flow. I think this is an extremely important function in considering the efficiency of regulation, so I would like to strongly request that you proceed.

Another point is a problem that has been mentioned several times in the discussions so far. From the perspective of business operators who intend to try new technologies in the future, one side says that they are too scared to do so considering the risk of being caught in some regulation and being enforced in an unintended manner. On the other hand, from the perspective of each regulation ministry and agency, there is a dilemma that they cannot take the step because if they give approval and let the business operators themselves do it, there is always a possibility that some will make false declarations and cause problems. In short, how to develop a consistent enforcement mechanism to provide the incentives necessary to realize agile governance is a problem, and in order to advance this Issue, it is necessary to discuss across ministries and agencies, but I feel that there are places where we have not been able to do well so far. In that case, it may be included in the institutionalization of the pre-adjustment process as a medium - to long-term part, but I think such an incentive design as a whole system will be created only when each law is combined well, so I thought it would be good to include such a perspective, so I made some comments.

Secretariat (Suga): With regard to the first point on Thank you very much. I think you are right.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. As you said, it would be a revolution if it were realized. In Japan, laws are owned by the central government department. It was openly said that our department has ○ ○ law, at least when I was young. There would be no such thing as a horizontal enforcement system. In that sense, it would be epoch-making if it were realized, as you pointed out.

Inadani Member: I think this is really very important, and I feel that it will be decisive in advancing digitalization, so I would like you to do it. Thank you very much.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. . How about others?

Nemoto Constituent: Thank you, , aren't you talking about the prior execution coordination process? I think it was written elsewhere, but if the law was passed first, there was a concern that it would be a story like "We need another base registry because the content is a little different." There is a concern that incidents such as "There is a corporate number, there is a My Number, there is an ID such as medical care" will be reignited if we do not make it a mechanism that "we will do it with this in mind" at the Digital Legislation Bureau stage. Therefore, we would like you to consider some kind of mechanism.

Another point is related to Mr. Matsuda's explanation. I think there will be many stories like the one I talked about earlier in the travel industry. In fact, since that method is the regulatory reform Promotion Conference method, if we talk about "I won't do it because there is no demand," it will become a theological debate and "I'm tired." But now I think we are talking about making a decision to "digitalization." We will make a digitalization as a rule, and transfer what we can to the digitalization. We will naturally protect the interests of the law that we should protect. I hope you will change the method to "What are the interests of the law that we cannot protect in Okinawa? Please prove them."

As Dr. Annen said, there are many people who are very strongly stuck to the status quo, so I would be grateful if you could start with the premise that "We will change it now." Thank you.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. industry are the sticklers, aren't they? I would like to ask about your two comments. Do you have any response from the Secretariat?

Secretariat (Suga): With regard to the first point on , we are proposing that the Confirmation of Compliance with the Digital Principles be conducted in the legislative process as well, prior to the execution coordination process. The Digital Principles 3, 4, and 5 include the Principles for the Use of Common Infrastructure, which calls for everyone to refer to base registry. It is a major premise that the Confirmation of Compliance with the Digital Principles be thoroughly conducted at the law level. However, even if we think that we have confirmed it there, there is a possibility that it will be watered down in various ways in the execution process. Therefore, I am proposing that we will conduct the Confirmation of Compliance with the Digital Principles twice, and I think that we are based on your intention.

Nemoto Constituent: Thank you, .

Secretariat (Matsuda): is also important, and I would like to ask you not to make a typical claim while listening to the claims of today's travel industry. I was looking at it as a classic while recalling various things I did in the past, but this time, since it is digitalization, it is natural for the regulation authorities to always rationalize regulation with the burden of proof, and I think it is a basic request from the Constitution, so I would like to make sure that we can communicate with each other, including what digitalization cannot do in the first place. In addition, I think it is very important to disclose what we have discussed to the world, and to have public opinion say that such technology can be used from the viewpoint of the world. So, I would like to consult with you again on this matter, including how and where to allocate resources.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. , please.

Mr. Ochiai: As Mr. Nemoto said, I thought it would be good for the first point, , to postpone the items that are said to be troublesome and "there should be no requests" like today, to advance the items that can be advanced, and to arrange them as the main operation. If necessary, I had the impression that it would be better for regulatory reform to give up the items that would be difficult to discuss.

Regarding the second incentive, I think you mentioned money. Another important point is that I think it has a positive impact on personnel evaluation, so I would like to ask you to do that.
In my comment on Counselor Suga, I think the execution coordination is also very excellent. In terms of agile governance, I thought it would be good to complete the arrow that goes around the end, which says, "Let's coordinate the execution, evaluate the results, and go back to planning together." Regardless of how far you write in the materials, it would be good to do so.
Finally, I was scolded by my professors of legal informatics by name. I said almost the same thing as Mr. Ahn, and he gave me strict guidance, but I think he picked up the purpose with the first * mark of Pochi. In complex cases such as multiple amendments, when the first and last amendments were enforced at the same time, mixing two amendments would occur if they were simply arranged. There is a part of the difference information that is important, so I thought it was correct. Based on that point, I think it was organized by the Secretariat, so I think he covered all of the discussion. The last is my impression. That's all.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. . In the case of changing the date of enforcement for a three stage or four stage rocket, it is certain that the revised text has a certain effect. Finally, I would like to receive a few words from the Vice Minister.

Senior Vice-Minister for Digital KOBAYASHI: Thank you very much, .

I am very proud and would like to express my respect to all of you who held a digital discussion rather than a speech by Mr. Zelensky.

Today, you talked about the travel industry, which is quite a symbolic example. I think there are two things. In regulation, social regulation is to ensure security, and economic regulation is to make the market better. I think that the economic regulation is almost the main part of what I talked about earlier. If they change that, they cannot discuss it calmly unless they can guarantee it in another way.

However, that does not mean that we do not need to make a digitalization. I think it was very good that we were able to share with you the fact that we must create the wisdom to overcome this.

So, Counselor Osawa, thank you very much for your hard work. I would like to do my best so that Counselor Osawa's hard work does not go unrewarded. However, as Mr. Ochiai said, I think it is very important for us to share with the world that we can get to a good place and be happy by having people who can ride the ship get on the ship as soon as possible.

In that sense, I hope that the organization of PHASE will be disclosed more and more, and that it will become an open data in which ministries and agencies can be compared. I think it would be good if it were scored by others, so I hope that we can create good motivation in each ministry and agency while forming public opinion, including such things.

So, now that Mr. Ahn Nen has revealed his hobbies and our sense of unity has increased, I would like to continue to do my best for the next time. Thank you very much for your continued cooperation.

Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. . Finally, I would like to ask the Secretariat to explain about the holding of the next Working Group meeting.

Secretariat (Matsuda): As for the details of the next meeting of the Working Group, the Secretariat will contact you later. Thank you.

As for today's proceedings, there is nothing that is not suitable for public disclosure, so I would like to prepare the minutes later and disclose them after everyone checks them. If you do not have any particular objection to today's materials, I would like to disclose all of them on the Digital Rincho website.
Thank you for joining us today.