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Electronic Power of Attorney Law Enforcement Review Meeting (3rd)

Since five years have passed since the enforcement of the Act on Promotion of Dissemination of Electronic Power of Attorney (Act No. 64 of 2017), the Committee on the Status of Enforcement of the Electronic Power of Attorney Act will be held pursuant to the provisions of Article 4 of the Supplementary Provisions of the Act on Promotion of Dissemination of Electronic Power of Attorney in order to inspect the status of enforcement and examine future directions.

Overview

  • Date and Time: Thursday, October 19, 2023, from 10:45 to 12:15
  • Location: Online
  • Agenda:
    1. Opening
    2. Proceedings
      1. Status of Enforcement of the Electronic Power of Attorney Act
      2. Directions for future dissemination
      3. Exchange of opinions toward the compilation of the results of the study
    3. Adjournment

Event Information

Materials

References

Relevant policies

Minutes

Date

Thursday, October 19, 2023, from 10:45 a.m. to 12:15 p.m.

Location

Online

Attendees

  • UEHARA Tetsutaro (Professor, Faculty of Information Science and Engineering, Ritsumeikan University)
  • Soshi Hamaguchi (Senior Staff Member, Keio University SFC Research Institute)
  • Hiroshi Miyauchi (Attorney, Miyauchi & Mizumachi IT Law Office)
  • Rie Yamaguchi (Associate Professor, Graduate School of Information Science and Engineering, The University of
  • Keiko Itakura (Head of Security, Medley Corporate Design Department, Inc.)
  • Reiko Kasai (Manager, Digital Solution Promotion Department, LAWSON Incubation Company, Inc.)

Observer

Digital Trust Association
Council for Cloud-based Electronic Signature Services

Minutes

Digital Agency Tonami
The third meeting of the Electronic Power of Attorney Law Enforcement Status Review Committee has been delayed due to circumstances. Please wait a moment.

Although the members are not here yet, five minutes have passed, and the third meeting of the Electronic Power of Attorney Law Enforcement Status Review Meeting will be held from now.

Thank you for coming today despite your busy schedule. My name is Tonami from Digital Agency and I will be serving as the secretariat. Nice to meet you.

Prior to the meeting, I would like to review today's materials.

As stated in the agenda that has been sent in advance and the agenda that is currently being shown, Materials 1 and 2 will be distributed to the members by email.

Today's materials are also posted on the Digital Agency website, so please check it if you are attending.

Today, the Imperial Household Committee member is absent due to convenience. In addition, the absent Imperial Household Committee member has submitted a note of his opinion and a reference slide to the Secretariat, so I would like to introduce them later.

In addition, the Digital Trust Association and the Cloud-based Electronic Signature Service Association will participate as observers of today's review meeting. Thank you for your cooperation.

Then, I would like to ask Chairman Uehara to proceed from now on. Thank you very much.

Chairman Uehara
I'm Uehara, Chairman. Thank you very much for taking the time to gather today.

Today, there are three agenda items, but I would like to proceed with them in order.

First of all, I would like to ask the Secretariat to explain the "Status of Enforcement of the Electronic Power of Attorney Act."

Digital Agency Tonami
I will now explain in accordance with Material 1. This is a report on the results of the validation questionnaire on electronic power of attorney.

This Electronic Power of Attorney validation Questionnaire asked four operators of systems that accept electronic power of attorney about the number of applications for procedures in which electronic power of attorney can be used and the number of cases in which electronic power of attorney is used among them, the status of use of paper power of attorney, as matters related to the status of use of electronic power of attorney, and opinions from users and applicants, opinions from operators, contact persons, etc., and other system-related requests as questions related to the future direction and expansion of use of electronic power of attorney.

First, regarding the number of cases in which electronic power of attorney has been used, we have received responses that the status of use of electronic power of attorney cannot be obtained for each system and that it is difficult to conduct a survey of such databases.

In addition, there were cases where the application was not distinguished between the application by the person himself and the application by the agent, such as the use of the server by the validation of the external E-Certificate.

In addition, it has been reported that the ratio of applications by electronic power of attorney among local governments for certain procedures cannot be collected by either e-Tax or eLTAX, or may be collected by each online application, but cannot be collected by the Japan Local Tax Cooperation Agency.

In addition, in certain procedures, the ratio of paper applications to paper proxy applications cannot be aggregated because the system does not manage whether or not e-Tax applications are made by an agent if they are made in writing. In addition, regarding eLTAX, there is a possibility that statistical information is collected by each institution using eLTAX, but the eLTAX side responded that it is impossible to aggregate the data.

In addition, regarding applications for which paper power of attorney can be used for paper applications but electronic power of attorney cannot be used in online application, e-Tax handles paper and electronic applications no differently, and the Japan Council for Local Taxes has received a response that it is not aware of the fact that the handling of paper applications by each institution is different for each institution.

In addition, in response to the question about the future direction and expansion of use, we have heard the following answers: Regarding e-Tax, we have not received any opinions or requests from taxpayers, tax accountants, or related organizations regarding electronic power of attorney. We have not received any requests from other organizations. Requests may have come to each certification authority or the certification authority that issues electronic power of attorney.

In addition, regarding electronic power of attorney, we were unable to hear opinions from the person in charge of operation, the person in charge of contact, and other requests from the system.

That's all for this presentation.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much.

If there are any opinions or questions from the members regarding the results of the questionnaire, we would like to hear them. What do you think?

Is there anything in particular?

If there is, I would like you to use the function of a show of hands or talk to me directly. Is that okay? If there is nothing in particular, I would like to finish the first agenda, and if there is any opinion, I would like to use the time for exchange of opinions later. Thank you.

Now, I would like to move on to the second item on the agenda. Please also provide an explanation from the Secretariat on the "Direction for Future Dissemination."

Digital Agency Tonami
Regarding the discussion of Agenda 2, the Secretariat is organizing the opinions received from the members at the 1st and 2nd Review Meetings. In addition, a draft table of contents of the report on the status of implementation of the Electronic Power of Attorney Act is posted in this document, so please check it if you like.

Regarding the arrangement of opinions received from the committee members in the first and second meetings, we have released the materials, so if you don't mind, please check them.

Thank you very much.

Chairman Uehara
In regard to the summary, based on the opinions from the first and second meetings, were there questions for the observers?

If any of the members of the Committee have any comments on the Table of Contents, please let me know.

If there are any opinions from the members to the observers, I would appreciate it.

Digital Trust Association, Nishiyama
I am Nishiyama from JDTF, and I will be participating as an observer from this time.

Is it your opinion about the table of contents, or is it your general opinion?

Do you mean that the general opinion will be after this?

Digital Agency Tonami
During this time, if there are any questions from the members to the observers, based on the opinions expressed in the first and second meetings, we expect to hear any questions in the future discussions toward the dissemination.

Chairman Uehara
I understand. First of all, I would like to ask the members of the Committee to speak to the observers.

Nice to meet you, Mr. Kasai.

Member Kasai
I would like to ask a question. As I mentioned in the first and second meetings, I have not yet been able to see the use of electronic power of attorney and the hints that it will lead to needs in electronic contracts. I would like to ask what points there are in the actual practical experience of the observers, whether it is necessarily an electronic power of attorney based on the Electronic Power of Attorney Act, or there are other things that are a little more light. It may be that there are some points where there are needs or there are no needs at all.

Chairman Uehara
What do you think about it? Are you still not fully aware of the specific needs?

Here you are.

Digital Trust Association, Nishiyama
My name is Nishiyama, and I spoke earlier.

I thought it would be better to clarify my position in advance, so I would like to introduce myself briefly. Regarding my participation from JDTF, I do not belong to a specific company at present, and I am in an independent position as a sole proprietor under the trade name of Future Trust Lab. Therefore, I do not have to make statements from a position that will benefit some business operator, and I am in a neutral position.

That said, regarding the Electronic Power of Attorney Act, in 2015, the Attribution Certification Sub-WG, Mr. Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications's Sub-WG, was named the Attribution Certification Examination Sub-WG. We have been involved in it since 2015, and Mr. Ogasawara, then Manager of the Department, helped us a lot, and after consideration, we were able to legislate it. At that time, I belonged to a company called SECOM Trust Systems, which engaged in electronic authentication, and I had been doing it for more than 20 years, and I successfully obtained the first certification.

The first commemorative event seems to be a commemorative event, and I attended a place where our president received the certificate by hand at the minister's office of NODA Seiko, who was the Minister for Internal Affairs and Communications at that time.

Therefore, we have high expectations for the spread of electronic power of attorney. From that perspective, I am afraid that it is difficult to say that electronic power of attorney is widely used in private sector procedures. So, there is no need for delegation. It depends on the weight of the contract secured by the electronic contract. Even if it is relatively light, the company at that time required that the person in charge of the contract confirm that the representative of the company has delegated the authority to conclude the contract, create an account, and E-Certificate, since it is a self-signed type, e-signature and remote signing service, issue a E-Certificate for the principal, and confirm that the person has the authority to conclude the contract before issuing the E-Certificate.

This is also the case with relatively light contracts. For example, there is a corporate loan contract, which is a heavy contract. The first corporate loan contract was made by SMBC. At that time, we participated in SMBC's study, and it was extremely important to ensure that we were the corporate representative or the mandator who delegated the authority to make such a loan contract, so we made such a design. Therefore, at that time, unfortunately, both contracts were not certified under the Electronic Power of Attorney Act, but it is extremely important to confirm whether or not there is authority to conclude such a contract in an electronic contract, and I think there is a need.

I will return it once and for all.

Member Kasai
Thank you.

Chairman Uehara
In addition, if you don't mind, I thought it would be from the members, but before that, I would like to ask Mr. Sato, who is also an observer, for his cooperation.

General Incorporated Association Cloud-based Electronic Signature Service Council Sato
I am Sato, Executive Director of the Cloud-based Electronic Signature Service Association. This is my first time participating as an observer. Nice to meet you.

Our association is a national association of cloud-based electronic signature services, and we are engaged in such activities with the aim of contributing to Trust in society by securing digitalization through the promotion of awareness and understanding of cloud-based electronic signatures.

First of all, I would like to make a brief comment only on your question earlier. We do not feel that the fact that the Electronic Power of Attorney Act is not widespread is a reason for hindrance in the spread of electronic contracts. As a background, we recognize that there are few or almost no requirements for a legally perfect delegation relationship in private-private transactions, and that the parties do not view the relationship of representation or delegation so analytically in private-private transactions.

If we ask for proof of the perfect agency relationship one by one, it will cost us money, labor, and time. As I stated in my conclusion earlier, we do not recognize or understand that the lack of spread of electronic delegation under the Electronic Power of Attorney Act is a reason for hindering electronic contracts.

Member Kasai
I see. Thank you.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. In addition, we are taking questions from observers, but there are also committee members who have just participated, so if you have any questions, please let us know what you have to say. Is there any?

If not, I will do it. Please, Mr. Hamaguchi.

Member of the Hamaguchi
I'm Hamaguchi. Nice to meet you.

I think it will be in relation to the matter that Mr. Sato, an observer, explained earlier.

In the previous second round, the Secretariat reported on electronic contracts and the results of survey related to contracts. I believe that more than 90% of companies confirm the commercial registration information of the other company when making a new contract, and in more than 20% of contracts, some kind of confirmation is made as to whether the signature of the other party is the signature of a person with the authority of representation.

Mr. Sato mentioned earlier that there is little need to properly confirm the authority of electronic contracts in BtoB. However, there is a gap between the actual situation of potential users of contracts, for example, electronic contracts, the actual situation of survey results, and the actual situation of users who use cloud-type signatures or who are considered by CeSSA. If you can recognize or comment on this point, I would like to hear your opinions.

Another point is that in the case of an electronic signature on a contract, there are three cases: the case where the corporate representative signs the contract as it is, which I think is the easiest to understand, the case where an employee signs the contract in the name of the corporate representative, and the case where an employee signs the contract after being properly delegated the authority by the corporate representative. Regarding this, Mr. Sato, I would like to know how you classify the services you know, how you explain to customers, for example, the ratio of use.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
Yes. What do you think? Should I ask Mr. Sato to do this?

General Incorporated Association Cloud-based Electronic Signature Service Council Sato
Yes. Before I answer, as Mr. Hamaguchi pointed out in the first session, we also feel that discussions on how to express agency / delegation relationships in the digital world and how to perform attribution authentication, as well as solutions, are necessary for digital completion. We share the same feelings on this point, and we have high expectations for future discussions.

Returning to your question, I believe that the practice of confirming registration when starting a new transaction has nothing to do with our industry, and I do not deny that it is usually done from the perspective of the existence of a corporation or so-called anti-company check. I would say that there is a gap, but I have not said that all of our contracts can be cloud-based, and in short, I believe that it is a world in which there is a distinction in use.

In order to have an authorized person sign the contract, what is usually exchanged as a cloud-based electronic signature is that when we actually enter the stage of signing the contract, we ask each other who will sign the contract at your company, and tell us the person's e-mail address, name and title. Then, we make a design for the flow in which the person signs the contract. Unlike a paper contract, we do not send a written contract by saying, "Please put the name and seal of the president, who is the representative, here." Instead, we ask each other to put the necessary people in the approval flow, and by doing so, we can avoid the risk that an unauthorized person will just sign the contract.

Your question is about signing by proxy. We are not recommending it at all because it is doubtful whether it is an electronic signature on Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act, and I think we are guiding people to be careful about it. But that is not what the Council is saying, so I think it is the decision of each company, but as a general understanding, we do not assume that a proxy will sign. For that purpose, we will put more than one person in the signature flow, or if that person is not suitable for signing, we will have a transfer function or a function to have a substitute sign. Many electronic contract platforms have such a function, so I think we are guiding customers to use such a function. There was a question about how many people inside the company, but I am sorry that I do not have that right now. implementation

Chairman Uehara
Is that all right?

Member of the Hamaguchi
Thank you very much. As for Mr. Sato, it seems that you are following up on the first and second discussions, and thank you for your thorough response.

By the way, I would like to confirm one more thing. I believe that in the first and second meetings, there was discussion about the use of electronic contracts in BtoB by indicating the right of comprehensive representation, in which the title is written in the power of attorney. Regarding the right of comprehensive representation, I would like to hear Mr. Sato's recognition and opinion on the use of the right of comprehensive representation as an electronic power of attorney. What do you think?

General Incorporated Association Cloud-based Electronic Signature Service Council Sato
I am sorry if I do not understand it well enough to call it an electronic power of attorney, but in the end, I believe that it will be resolved within the legal doctrine of appearance of rights under the Civil Code rather than the digital world. For the security of transactions from a macro perspective, it is sometimes desirable to protect a person who has trusted the appearance of rights for a justifiable reason. Against this background, I believe that the legal doctrine of appearance of rights under the Civil Code, the Private Law, and the Commercial Code have been developed. I believe that it is better to consider this matter in combination with such legal doctrine of appearance of rights than to consider it only in the digital world. I believe that if you are not necessarily the representative director or representative of a corporation, but have a comprehensive authority of representation, it is sufficient to conclude a contract as it is. However, I believe that this is a matter of litigation or whether you are registered as a manager, so I believe that it is not possible to solve the problem only in the digital world of Trust.

Chairman Uehara
Yes, thank you. What do you think, Commissioner Hamaguchi?

Member of the Hamaguchi
Thank you.

Chairman Uehara
Then, if there are no questions from other members, there seems to be materials from the Imperial Household Committee, so could the Secretariat explain it to us?

Digital Agency Tonami
In relation to your communication and question, I would like to introduce the material "Consideration on Electronic Signatures by Agents" provided by the Imperial Household Committee member who was absent.

First of all, it is about the signature of the agent and the signing agent.

At this review meeting, we are discussing whether the authority is delegated by the representative of the company when the person in charge, who is not the President or the representative of the company, actually signs the contract for the signature of the agent.

In addition, as Mr. Hamaguchi mentioned earlier, it is of course possible for another person to affix the signature of the representative of the juridical person on behalf of the other person.

With regard to this, when I read out the materials of the Imperial Household Committee, it was pointed out that there is no such legal basis because Article 3 of the Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act does not provide for the signature in the name of the person by such an agent, unlike the Code of Civil Procedure.

In addition, I believe that there was an exchange of views on comprehensive representation earlier, and I believe that Mr. Satoh also stated that there was a hearing or exchange when concluding a contract. Regarding the exchanges so far, for example, if you are checking paper business cards or doing something with a low Trust, or if you conclude a contract completely online, or if you conclude a contract without meeting face-to-face, I believe that a certain level of E-Certificate can be secured by using an electronic power of attorney, such as Trust plus business cards as mentioned by the Imperial Household Commissioner.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
I believe that this is more of an opinion of the Imperial Household Committee than a question. What do you think from the perspective of the members of the Foreign Affairs Committee?

In particular, Mr. Sato, you said that the use of titles is not a digital world, but for example, you said that it would be good to have an electronic power of attorney like an employee ID card.

I would like to ask if you have any feelings about this, such as whether it matches the actual situation of the users.

General Incorporated Association Cloud-based Electronic Signature Service Council Sato
Yes. Of course, I think we check the title as a matter of practice, but when asked how much it is necessary as a Trust service and whether it promotes electronic contracts, there is one thing that is not quite clear. As Professor Miyauchi said in the first session, an electronic power of attorney is like an electronic employee ID card. If you say so, I think it is easy to understand as the first step. At present, I am not sure how good it is to promote electronic contracts.

The reason why the users of the electronic contract platform are doing so is that there should be an exchange of emails even before the conclusion of the contract, even if they do not meet face-to-face, and if the parties concerned in the company are added to the recipients in addition to the person who actually signs the contract in the exchange of emails before and after the contract, the risk that the person is not the person who has the authority to conclude the contract can be reduced, so I think that is what we recommend to our customers.

Chairman Uehara
I see. I believe it is exactly the same as the actual materials of the Imperial Household Committee, but I understand that it is an opinion that the same method of building trust when there is physical exchange can be done electronically. Thank you very much.

In addition, I would like to ask the members of the Committee to give their opinions to the observers at this time. What do you think?

If there is nothing in particular, I would like to ask both of you, Mr. Sato. You said that electronic power of attorney is not blocked in the first place. So, before that, I think one of the reasons is that electronic contracts are not widespread in the first place. In response to this, if you know why you feel that electronic contracts are blocked in the first place, or if you feel that electronic contracts are blocked or that there is a high hurdle, what is the cause? This is a very simple question, but I would like to ask the feelings of the observers. What do you think?

Mr. Nishiyama, please.

Digital Trust Association, Nishiyama
I would like to make some comments. First of all, I would like to hear Mr. Sato's opinion later, but I wonder if there is such a feeling that it is troublesome.

In other words, in order to make electronic contracts, we need to switch from the conventional paper process to an electronic process, including internal operations. Then, of course, there are certain hurdles, and I think there is one sense that it takes a lot of time and effort for the person in charge to deal with such matters.

From the management's point of view, the overall effect will be better if it is finally computerized, so I would like to promote it, but when it comes to the actual division, there are many people who are busy with discussions and actual business, so there is no time for that. That is one point.

Second, I think there is a problem of interoperability. With the current electronic contract service, if you use a service from a certain company, it can only be done between those who have subscribed to the service. Then, what is often quoted is a construction contract. When a large-scale general contractor digitizes the acceptance of a construction contract, it can only be done between the general contractor and the sub-contractor under the general contractor or the company under the sub-contractor. However, the construction firm and sub-contractors that are actually doing the work are also receiving work from other general contractors. In that case, I think you have to join another general contractor's system. I don't think there is such an interoperability now. Unfortunately, the service that is currently providing an electronic contract service does not ensure such interoperability. That is the second problem.

The third point is related to internal matters that are troublesome, but the keyword of online completion by digital principles is also stated in the comprehensive data strategy, but on the other hand, whether electronic power of attorney can be completed by digital principles or online has not been achieved. In particular, in the two examples earlier, confirmation of the act of delegation is important in electronic contracts, but there were two examples where certification under the Electronic Power of Attorney Act was not obtained. Even in such cases, there is no mechanism for easily issuing a power of attorney now, and in short, the identification of the mandator and the mandatary is required, and the electronic signatures of the two are required. Such a hurdle will be raised for ordinary party-type electronic contracts. I personally have a sense that it will be difficult to spread if it is not easy. At the time when the Electronic Power of Attorney Act was enforced, My Number Card did not have such a high penetration rate, but I have heard that it is more than three quarters of the current rate. In that case, I believe that an environment is being created in which My Number Card can be realized by a combination of two methods, that is, using digital completion and confirming corporate registration information online. In addition, when confirming registration information online, it is also possible to consider e-seal. If e-seal is attached to certificates from such public institutions in e-seal consideration, it can be used as evidence later. If you consider institutional design in a slightly broader sense, I believe that online completion can be realized.

The user experience, or ease of use, is very important, and I believe that Mr. Sato has achieved this, and that there are quite a few of them in use. I would like to hear your opinions on this.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. It was very easy to understand, but I would like to talk about Mr. Sato's ease of use and usability.

General Incorporated Association Cloud-based Electronic Signature Service Council Sato
Thank you for your compliment. I would like to return to the first question and answer why it has not spread. I believe that there is still room for growth, in the sense that the market is not yet saturated, and in that sense there is still room for development. However, I believe that the evaluation that it has not spread is not so justifiable, and I believe that it is still in the process of developing. Since 2020, the market size of cloud-based electronic signature services such as ours has been increasing steadily, and I believe that it is still in the process of developing.

What supports this is, of course, the government's efforts, but you just talked about UI and UX, and I think the main thing is that we have realized the point that it can be done easily. I think the main element of being able to do it easily is that it is easy to operate and that it is not necessary to prepare any equipment or specific special equipment in advance. I think that everyone has a computer or smartphone and an e-mail address, so I think that these things have become a national minimum, and this is the background for their spread.

Going back to the issue of what are the obstacles to further development, I think it is difficult to say in a few words, but there are still some parts that cannot be digitalization, and there are still some parts that are quite difficult to digital completion, so if you cannot digital completion part of the work, there is no point in digitizing the other parts after all. One of the reasons why there are still such parts is that it is still developing, and I think the reason why it is still developing is that it is taking time to rewrite the flow within the company, which has been assembled against the background of traditional seals, on the premise of digital.

Chairman Uehara
I see. Thank you very much. Then, Mr. Itakura, nice to meet you.

Member Itakura
I would like to talk about 2 things.

First of all, I would like to organize the part that is related to the current blocker and that takes time and effort into some more breakdown or points.

One of the topics is interoperability, UX, system design, and process improvement premised on digital technology. What can be done? For example, if we are talking about rewriting premised on digital technology, would it be helpful if there were some guidelines? I thought it would be good if we could delve into these topics and discuss them in a structured manner.

One more thing I was going to say is that we are talking again with in-house lawyers about where electronic power of attorney can be used in the company. In the case of our company, in use cases, where shareholders submit reports on large-volume holdings, we use power of attorney when submitting to EDINET, particularly with shareholders overseas, and if electronic power of attorney can be used in such places, it may be good. I would like to share my thoughts on this as an idea base.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. Do you have any comments from the office staff?

Mr. Nishiyama, if you don't mind.

Digital Trust Association, Nishiyama
I believe you are right. I believe it is necessary to thoroughly consider this matter. I believe that the Guidelines and others mentioned earlier are effective, but I believe that the content of the Guidelines will be examined in the future, whether it will be a guide for the use of electronic power of attorney or a guideline for the spread of electronic contracts.

In addition to simply issuing guidelines, what is still missing for digital completion is the way to confirm corporate representatives online. One useful means is the certificate of the Corporate Registration and Certification Office, but unfortunately, the diffusion rate is still very low. It is expected to spread in the future, but it will take a certain amount of time.

What can be considered is that the corporate registration database naturally knows who are the corporate representatives. For example, if I ask you to certify that I am the corporate representative of A Trading Company with the My Number Card of the corporate representative, such a certification will be issued from the commercial registration database. This is called the corporate registration API, and both JDTF and CAC have made proposals. One thing is that it will be easier to confirm the corporate representative online. Once you confirm that you are the corporate representative, you can sign an electronic power of attorney with the My Number Card of the person, or you can sign a document saying that you are delegated to the electronic power of attorney handling business operator and submit it. So, it will be settled at once. If the mandatary also has a My Number Card, you can sign with the My Number Card, or if you use the My Number Card to generate a second signing certificate in, for example, a remote signing service, I think online completion will solve the problem all at once.

At that time, Mr. Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications's Attribution Certification Review Meeting also talked about the existence of such a use cases, but it has not yet been realized to that extent, so as a means of confirming corporate representatives online, of course, remote signing of corporate registration certification authorities is being considered, and there is one such direction, and there is also the current situation where we cannot wait for it, so the certification of corporate representatives from the corporate registration database with an e-seal attached, if there are these two, I think it will advance considerably.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you, Mr. Sato, if you don't mind.

General Incorporated Association Cloud-based Electronic Signature Service Council Sato
As Mr. Nishiyama has just mentioned, you talked about API. We would like to propose that storing property information in the free space in My Number Card is an effective solution. In addition, in the case of authenticating the identity of individuals within a corporation, such as representatives or corporate attributes, I believe that the use of gBizID may be considered as another solution. It is our understanding that there was a period of consideration of cooperation with administrative proceduer not only in Digital Agency, but also in private-private transactions and in private service. I believe that such an option is one option.

gBizID also issues a prime account after confirming the existence and the representative of the corporation, and issues a child account that is definitely linked to it, so I think that at least attribute information can be confirmed even in a delegated relationship.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. Mr. Miyauchi, who participated late, if you don't mind, would you like to ask something to the observers?

Since this is the first time for an observer to participate in the first and second meetings, I would like to ask questions in an interactive manner. For example, I believe I have asked you about what factors are hindering your participation, so I am asking you frankly.

Imperial Household Commissioner
It happens that my paper is displayed now. In many ways, it is a hindrance. I also think it is true that electronic power of attorney is not used very much. Originally, if we firmly consider the authority of delegation and do business with it, there are very few users. If it is the authority for contracts or applications. Therefore, in order to use the so-called comprehensive power of representation of employees, I will submit my employee ID card all at once.

In this way, many certificates can be issued by one application, and they can be issued if the representative says "Yes," so to speak. For the various certificates that have been issued so far, it was very difficult to issue each certificate one by one, for example, to issue a personal family registry, but the issuance became very small, and by using this, B-to-B can be made secure, so I wanted the government to advertise this in various ways. From the beginning, five years ago, I said that this was good in various places, but it has not spread yet, and there are not many companies that issue it, so I don't think we have both chicken and egg. If we do this well, I think we can make it very convenient. The essence of the current discussion may be different, but I think that advancing this point will be extremely effective in the future use of this law and when conducting online transactions with parties who have not been aware of B-to-B.

I didn't understand the context, so I said what I wanted to say.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. I think this is more of an opinion, but in response to that, I would like to accept any comments from observers.
What do you think? There might be some overlapping parts. Is that all right?

Now, I believe that you have asked a question in response to the opinions of the first and second meetings, and I believe that the Secretariat has organized it. Would it be possible for you to move on to this side?

Digital Agency Tonami
Based on the discussions so far, I would like to make a few comments on today's discussion. There are various opinions, and I think all of them are very useful opinions. One thing I can say is that there are various examples, such as the example given by Mr. Itakura, and the UX mentioned by Mr. Sato and Mr. Nishiyama. For example, I have heard about cases in which other transactions are conducted electronically, but only the power of attorney remains in paper. So, I think we need to consider solutions for electronic power of attorney or other than electronic power of attorney in the future.

If there is a position on an electronic power of attorney, I think it would be good to conduct hearings and consider this electronic power of attorney as a future initiative.

In addition, regarding the summary of your first and second remarks, we have posted materials, so please check them.

The Secretariat would like to discuss what specific arrangements should be made and what should be shown regarding the guidelines and other specific initiatives on which opinions have been expressed.

Best regards

Chairman Uehara
Although time is limited, I would like to move on to our discussion.

If you have any comments on what kind of arrangement should be made or what kind of investigation should be conducted, I would like to hear your comments from either the committee members or the observers. What do you think?

Thank you, Mr. Itakura.

Member Itakura
With regard to the case where only the electronic power of attorney part remains on paper, I would like to ask if there is anything that the observer can guess, or if there is no such thing, I would like to discuss whether there is any way to conduct an investigation.

Chairman Uehara
Which one should I ask to answer that? The office?

Member Itakura
You will be the Secretariat or observers. If you have any hypothesis, I would like to ask you.

Chairman Uehara
How do you like it? Go ahead.

Digital Trust Association, Nishiyama
This is Nishiyama. The party to the electronic contract, or the person who signs the electronic contract, may use a certificate or an electronic contract service provided by the business operator. Does that mean that only a letter of attorney remains on paper?

May I ask the premises?

Member Itakura
My question is the same as the content of the report by the secretariat earlier, so I would like to ask a question to the secretariat.

Imperial Household Commissioner
This is Mr. Miyauchi. May I make a few remarks?

We don't necessarily know all the circumstances, but for example, when we go through the procedures at the Patent Office, we become your agent. At that time, we actually submit a comprehensive power of attorney to the Patent Office in paper form, and the rest of the procedures are done electronically.

I am located less than 100 meters from the Patent Office, but I don't take any paper with me. I do everything electronically online. At that time, of course I can do it online, but the client doesn't want to issue a certificate or do anything like that in order to issue a power of attorney for one time. Therefore, it is common to make a comprehensive power of attorney on paper, affix the seal of the representative, which is called a company seal, and submit it to the Patent Office.

I think it is possible that not only I but also many other people, whether inside or outside the company, act as agents, and the president or representatives issue a E-Certificate for that purpose, which is troublesome. Therefore, I imagine that there are many cases in which representatives think that paper is fine for places that are not frequently used.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
You showed me one case. Are you looking for something like this?

If you don't mind, I would like to move on to Mr. Kasai's presentation.

Member Kasai
Thank you very much. The Secretariat and the Chairman would like to make one comment on what kind of arrangement should be made and what kind of investigation should be conducted in the future.

First of all, although the electronic power of attorney is not being used, I believe some people are using it, so I would like to ask why they are using it.

For example, as Dr. Miyauchi mentioned in the first session, an electronic power of attorney is not a contract each time, but a period of time during which work is delegated, and it is managed. For example, if it is applied to contracts of high importance, contracts with a high amount of money, and contracts with a large number of transactions, it will work very well, and it has not been used. It was difficult to find out what the point is in the actual situation of use in a short period of time, but I would like to ask you about that.

In addition, I have been hearing about electronic power of attorney and electronic contracts from people close to me, and I think that there are things that are troublesome from Mr. Nishiyama and Mr. Sato, and on the contrary, there are things that are spread because the platform side has introduced the approval process, but as I said earlier, I have heard about a place where only the proxy is paper when there are many contracts for the representative, so I have not yet used electronic power of attorney, but in order to spread such an idea rather than using or not using electronic power of attorney, I thought that it would be good if there were a case in which a business operator who is slightly stumbling, not only the platform side, but also the user side, can be interviewed as the user side from the point I said earlier.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. I think it would be better to conduct hearings to collect cases, and to collect examples that are successful and examples that are not.

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you, Mr. Hamaguchi.

Member of the Hamaguchi
Yes, I am Hamaguchi. I would like to speak about my expectations for something like this guideline.

Basically, our position is that electronic contracts should be possible for all transactions such as paper transactions.

Including the use of electronic power of attorney and title, I think that it is good to sort out what kind of risks are reduced in transactions and what kind of uses can be used by using this.

Based on the discussions in the first and second meetings, for example, you stated that electronic power of attorney could be used for high-risk transactions such as finance and real estate, and that a method based on the E-Certificate of the person would be compatible with electronic power of attorney.

On the other hand, in your speech today, you said that it is necessary to use different types of services even for cloud-based services. In fact, there are cases where the electronic signature of the person is based on the E-Certificate, and I think there are cases where it is local or remote, but the guarantee level of reliability and trust does not necessarily change only depending on whether the service is a cloud-based service or not. As indicated in Article 3 Q & amp; A, if a sufficient level of uniqueness can be shown, I believe that cloud-based services can be used for transactions involving extremely high risk.

What kind of risks are there for electronic contracts, what kind of Issue is there, what kind of problems can be solved by electronic power of attorney, and how can we choose services among various types of services such as cloud type and local type? If we can show them, it will contribute to the spread of electronic contracts, and by doing so, we can show that electronic contracts can be made for all transactions.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. Next, Imperial Household Commissioner, nice to meet you.

Imperial Household Commissioner
As I heard from Commissioner Hamaguchi, I think it is very important to use them in various ways.

When I think about guidelines like this, I think it is very easy to move when I think about it in contrast to the way we have been doing it with paper.

In the case of paper, even if you affix a seal, there are cases where you affix the registered seal of the representative, or the seal that is properly managed by the General Affairs Department in the company. In addition, there are cases where you affix the seal of the person in charge, or you don't know the general noun, which is called Shachihata, but for example, you submit an invoice or an estimate. In the case of paper, such distinction has come naturally, in all companies, and such regulations have been made properly.

When I think about this, I think that the reason why we are doing this in response to such things is that, for example, the President's representative seal is affixed to an important contract, or this kind of thing must be guaranteed, or there must be such evidence. It may be vague. In response to such things, I think that we should explain clearly what to do in the case of electronic contracts, or how much we can respond in the event of a problem, and use this. I think that by taking a certain degree of response to the current physical situation, the understanding of the people as a whole will be greatly enhanced.

In addition, as I mentioned earlier, I believe that business cards, including electronic employee ID cards, are extremely effective now. If we show the role of electronic signatures or electronic power of attorney in the overall activities of electronic contracts in a way that corresponds well to social and corporate activities up to now, including how to substitute such things, I believe that it will be very convenient.

That's all from me.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. Next, Mr. Yamaguchi, nice to meet you.

Commissioner Yamaguchi
Good morning. This is Yamaguchi. I'm sorry, I'm a little late.

Now, while listening to what Mr. Miyauchi said and what he said before, I think that until now, I have tended to do this, but even if it looks very loose, such as being kept by a secretary, I have treated it loosely based on the feeling of touch that Mr. Uehara often says, and it just so happens.

Recently, I have been listening to your discussions and thinking that it may be difficult to express that looseness in the world of electronic power of attorney. It may be difficult to verbalize ambiguous parts or to put them in the flow of the business process. Because of this, it may be even more troublesome. You may be used to the original method, but you will have to wake up the business process again and re-do it, so it may not be so easy. I think it is difficult to create a general-purpose one.

On the other hand, there should be more than zero points that we wish to conduct electronically, so I would like to pick up such points, but I was wondering if hearings on them will proceed in the future.

To put it more simply, Japan has been a country where people have been trusted and society has been transformed. If we try to do this electronically, there will be many things that need to be done openly, and they will stand out as resistance forces. So, when we do various things, I think it is better to do them in a place that is easy to do than to think about how to settle them.

That's all from me.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. Then, I would like to ask the secretariat to make a statement once here.

Digital Agency Tonami
We have received various opinions now, but I believe that the final decision will be made by each party. However, although it is the choice of each party, I believe that it is difficult now to compare the options presented by each business operator, such as using our products, when they are not evaluated or when a new electronic contract or digital method is tried.

I believe that there are various ways to sort out such information, such as by industry groups or by the national government. In the future, we will conduct a survey on demand for such information, and Commissioner Yamaguchi said that it would be difficult to sort out information in a general-purpose manner. However, I believe that we can continue to pursue ways to sort out such information.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you.

We are running out of time, so if anyone still wants to make a statement here, I would like to accept it. What do you think?

Is that all right? Well, since there are actually three agenda items, time is running out, so I would like to finish this one once and pick it up if there is any at the Agenda 3 Exchange of Opinions.

I would like to move on to agenda item 3. Before proceeding to agenda item 3, if you don't mind, I would like to speak with Mr. online application from the Secretariat.

Digital Agency Tonami
Although it is a time for exchange of opinions during the free discussion, I believe that you have given your opinions on the problems of delegation and representation in online application in the first and second meetings. If there are any future investigations or points that should be addressed, we would like to reflect them in the summary. We would appreciate if you could discuss the problems of delegation and representation in online application widely, not limited to electronic power of attorney.

Chairman Uehara
I would like to know if you have any additional comments on the electronic contract. What do you think?

I would like to summarize the points that I would like you to discuss. With regard to representation and delegation and social needs, if there are insufficient needs for representation and delegation in digital, I believe that it will not spread. I would like you to discuss this point.

Yes, Dr. Miyauchi please.

Imperial Household Commissioner
I have mentioned several points. First of all, I believe that Individual Number Card Point support services, the profession, and proxy applications were discussed a little while ago, and I believe that it will be very different depending on whether the application is made by an agent or a signing agent. If the application is made by an agent, the fact of the proxy, the agent, and the agent should be recorded. For example, if the person in the profession is told to hand over the My Number Card and password, which is not allowed, then how to prevent this, which may be a problem of the people's literacy, should be made known to the public. Since there are both sides, I believe that the way it should be will change depending on the actual situation.

In addition, I believe that there are two sides to whether or not a letter of attorney will be used for the legal representation of a family member and a guardian of an adult. Even if it is not necessarily a letter of attorney, for example, if there is information about family registry or something that is signed by local government or has an e-seal attached, it will be possible to know that it is a family member by looking at it, and in some cases, it will be possible to know that it is a legal representative, and I believe that it will be done in combination with My Number Card, so I believe that whether or not a letter of attorney will be used is still a matter of debate.

For now, that's all I have to say.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. I would also like to thank Mr. Kasai for his speech.

Member Kasai
Online application is a very difficult Issue. This may be an extension of the discussion earlier, but I am listening to the discussion. Although we call paper work digital, I think it is about the touch. When paper work is done, there is a stamp. Of course, the stamp can be forged. In the case of digital work, IDs, passwords, emails, and strange strings of letters can be easily obtained or handed over. Even if digital work looks the same from paper, the risks are quite different. As Mr. Hamaguchi mentioned earlier, I believe that making the risks clearly visible will lead to improved literacy.

I believe that there are various exchanges about the concept of IDs and passwords, and whether this e-mail address is true. I think it is difficult to say that it is OK, but I wonder if it is possible to predict the risks of doing so, so I have one opinion.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. I think it is generally believed that passwords should not be shared, but in fact, it is not so much as expected. At the beginning of the digital native generation entering the Internet world without education, there were several cases in which elementary and junior high school students shared passwords relatively casually. I also think that unless education, which is improving literacy, especially education, which says that passwords should not be shared, comes along, market sentiment will not be created. Therefore, I think that if we create such common sense before social needs, we can naturally prevent casual hidden delegation by password sharing.

Are there any other comments from the members?

Yes, Commissioner Itakura, please.

Member Itakura
We are talking about electronic delegation rather than online application, but from the perspective of risk, I think it is largely because the law stipulates that application for BtoG requires delegation. Therefore, when expanding the use cases to BtoB and other Trust, I think it would be good to organize a guide or a guide by systemizing what the risk is, what the purpose is, and why it is better to use a power of attorney to maintain the region.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. Is there anything else? Thank you, Mr. Hamaguchi.

Member of the Hamaguchi
Thank you very much. Everyone has already commented on the risks, but I think it is also very important to create an atmosphere in which delegation can be easily done digitally. In my case, when it comes to delegation, for example, it is assumed that I can delegate something to my wife and ask her to apply on my behalf, and in such a case, for example, if I can easily delegate to my wife by using the My Number and JPKI functions installed in smartphone, if such an atmosphere is established, I think that online application with delegation will increase rapidly. Therefore, I think it would be good if an electronic power of attorney could be issued more easily.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. It has been quite a while, but I would like to ask if there are any surveys that should be kept with statistical data, such as various data and statistics that have been presented by some of the committee members in order to show how electronic power of attorney should be.

What I am most concerned about is that the numbers show that I am not personally delegated much, but I think it is better to clarify whether this is really in line with the actual situation. Because, as you said earlier, if there is a story somewhere that says that you actually entrusted your My Number Card or that you actually reused your password, I think there will be a gap from the original number.

If that is the case, I am thinking a little bit about finding out how to do something about that.

Mr. Hamaguchi, if you don't mind.

Member of the Hamaguchi
Perhaps, in reality, it would be difficult to look into the numbers of what Dr. Uehara said earlier. For example, if we can find out the number of cases where there are inquiries at the window and they answered that this application or this business must be made by the person himself, it would mean that there is a potential need for delegation. If we can find out how many such inquiries there are, whether it must be made by the person himself, whether it must be made by a family member, whether it must be made by a substitute, or how many cases there are where a substitute is needed and the response is to write a letter of attorney, I think we can identify hidden cases like the one I mentioned earlier in which the person was not the person himself but applied with a My Number Card.

That's all.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. You've given me a very good idea. implementation may have some room to think about it, but I hope you'll consider it.

If you don't mind, I would like to hear comments from the office.

Digital Agency Tonami
Thank you very much for your comments. Regarding risks, as pointed out by other members, I believe there are factors such as hidden mandate and hidden proxy applications that can be made if you want to share passwords, cards, physical media, or passwords. I believe there are such factors, for example, you can go through procedures at the local government counter with a paper letter of attorney, so I believe there is not necessarily little demand for proxy applications.

In addition to that, even if there is a function for proxy applications, I believe there are other problems such as the name recognition and the inconvenience of the function. In terms of how to conduct the investigation, in the case of local government, it is necessary to ask somewhere to investigate the number of cases in which paper power of attorney is used, and in the case of the national government, it is necessary to ask each ministry and agency that has its own procedures, so I believe it is difficult to determine how much demand there is for conducting the investigation, but I think it would be good to conduct the investigation in the future by focusing on the cases where delegation or proxy applications are likely to be made.

That's all. Thank you.

Chairman Uehara
Thank you very much. My way of proceeding did not go well, and it has been a little time, so I would like to finish it.

Thank you very much. I would like to return it to the office.

Digital Agency Tonami
Thank you for your active discussion. The opinions received today will be reflected in the draft implementation status report and the fourth report.

The minutes of today's meeting will be published on the Digital Agency website after confirmation by the committee members at a later date.

In addition, we will contact and inform you of the schedule of the next review meeting. We would like to ask for your continued support.

With that, we conclude the third meeting of the Electronic Power of Attorney Law Enforcement Status Review Meeting.

Thank you very much.

End