The first workshop on the "Mobility Roadmap"

Last Updated:: Jun 30, 2023

Overview

Date and time: May 31, 2023 (Wed) from 10:00 to 12:30
Place: Kioi Conference Seminar Room A, 4th floor, Tokyo Garden Terrace Kioi-cho (used online)
Agenda:
1. Opening
2. How to proceed with this study group
3. Presentations and discussions
  - "Mobility Roadmap" and SIP "Smart Mobility Platform" (Chairman Ishida)
  - Mr. Tomoki Saji, Representative Director and CEO, BOLDLY Co., Ltd. "Public transportation fiscal reform to be realized by the public and private sectors in the 2020s to make shared buses into sustainable public transportation"
  - "Data collaboration between the public and private sectors and business operators and its significance from the viewpoint of social implementation of MaaS" (member, Hidaka)
4. Closing

Meeting video

The meeting is available on YouTube (Digital Agency's official channel).

The First Workshop on the Mobility Roadmap (YouTube)

Material

Minutes

Director for Policy Planning Suzuki: A person from the Now that it's time, I'd like to start.

I am Suzuki from Mobility Group, Service Group for Citizens of Digital Agency. Nice to meet you today.

We would like to hold the first study meeting on the ideal form of the "Mobility Roadmap." This study meeting is being live-streamed. Please note that after the meeting, the recording will be released on the Digital Agency website.

First of all, Mr. Murakami from Director-General, Group of Service for Citizens, Digital Agency, would like to say a few words of greeting. Thank you.

Director-General Murakami: So far, we have received cooperation from some of you, and we have been working on a public-private ITS concept and roadmap. As for the development of systems and technologies to make it possible to run ITS, including Level 4, we are on the verge of realizing it. In fact, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism has invested in various ways, and it has finally reached Level 4, and Eiheiji-cho's participation is finally coming, but what I would like to focus on this time is the development of systems and technologies to continue as a business.

To put it simply, the purchase of many self-driving vehicles now costs, for example, 5 to 60 million yen per vehicle, and in terms of the basic price for operation and services, it may cost 4 to 50 million yen per year. In such a situation, there is no way that local governments can own them as local public transportation.

In that sense, it has become possible to run as a technology, but it may be difficult to continue as a business. This time, we are planning to go along with the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifelines, but even if we realize 100 sites there in 2027, there will be only three sites left three years later. Let's sort out the necessary policy agenda so that it will be meaningless.

Second, it is the purpose of this roadmap, which we will consider in the future, to coordinate the considerations and initiatives of each ministry. We do not intend to overlap with the considerations of each ministry. Rather, each ministry will coordinate the timing of various considerations and technological developments, synchronize them horizontally, ask for consideration in some cases, and if there is anything insufficient, we will consider it ourselves. However, as in the era of the public-private ITS concept and roadmap, I believe that this is the reason why the roadmap was implemented with the cooperation of each ministry at the time by the Cabinet Secretariat IT Office and now in Digital Agency.

Having said that, it is the task of the Study Group to collect the points of discussion, first of all, by receiving opinions from various people about what points of discussion there are in order to consider and launch the Roadmap in the future, about four times.

Based on that, we are officially considering launching a review meeting in synchronization with the review frame of the Digital Zenso, and as a hypothesis, for example, we have presented three viewpoints.

This time, we divided them into three categories: self-help, mutual help, and public help. In particular, in the case of ITS, it was basically a matter of vehicles, but when we think about local mobility, we think about services, robots, and drones separately, and there are different operators for each of them. In the sense that it is difficult to think about a future in which business is likely to continue, we need to think about mobility services as mobility services. Therefore, we have expanded the name of the hypothesis to 3 x 3, such as mobility roadmap.

For example, in terms of self-help, to be honest, I think it is realistically difficult to aim for a single business with only mobility services as the demand density decreases.

However, for example, as Mr. Mitoyo City will explain for the fourth time, rather than increasing the deficit when the community bus, which was suspended on Sunday, was operated, the increase in the in-home mortality rate by encouraging the elderly to come and go, and the resulting reduction in medical expenses may actually be larger, according to the figures. We are in an era where we may make a mistake in public and social choice unless we decide on the presence or absence of mobility services from a cross-sectional perspective including such social impact.

This is what we need to think about even in the face of a declining population. I summarized the non-consolidated deficit and social impact roughly, but even in the self-help phase, it is necessary to design a business that also includes its social impact.

Second, I would like to give a lecture to the professionals. For the time being, I wrote a little today about cooperative control between vehicles and how far the environmental side goes and how far the vehicle side goes.

There are already various technological options, and I think that the feasibility of any of these options seems to be in the era of public-private ITS concepts and roadmaps. On the other hand, if we want to make this into a business, no one will decide to invest in it unless it has a certain level of scalability, no matter which business or combination of options we choose.

If you don't decide to use this, for example, a digital twin, if you have the money, you can demonstrate it, but no one will make it into a business, so it is time to decide on a de facto format for the coordination layer in various ways.

For example, in the case of Kojo, the issue of social responsibility is taken up, but if we go to the extreme, there is a complete difference in the way responsibility is handled between a pure road under the Road Traffic Law and a track under the Track Law. For example, who is responsible for running over me when I lay down on the track?

I think it will be difficult because there will be both self-driving cars and analog cars. Realistically, I think Professor Ishida will talk about this, but I have a feeling that unless we discuss the distribution of social responsibility with the environment side on the premise of a combination, we will probably not be able to find an answer, even if we say that social responsibility will change because of self-driving cars, unless we discuss how to design social responsibility based on the assumption that the environment side will do this to some extent, such as whether we should pass through narrow streets or whether we should set up some dedicated roads and run them there.

Our basic view is that unless we solve these problems in multiple different sectors at the same time, even if we can run it as a technology, the risk as a business is too high and we will not be able to find a servicer.

I believe that we must take into account the considerations and factors of various ministries and agencies. First of all, in this study group, I would like to hear various opinions on the points that are not discussed in the order or in relation to each other.

In that sense, the discussions themselves are open to the public, and the ministries and agencies are invited as observers, so I hope that you will express your frank opinions.

That's all from me.

Director for Policy Planning Suzuki: A person from the . Well, let's get down to business. I would like to ask Professor Ishida of the University of Tsukuba to be the chair of the proceedings from here. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . This is Ishida from Tsukuba University.

Thank you very much for your cooperation in the "Study Group on the Ideal of a Digital Transportation Society" last fiscal year. I think it was a good product in its own way, but I myself have experienced quite a lot of criticism that it was fluffy and I did not understand it well when I listened to the stories here and there. In such a situation, as Director-General Murakami said, this time at the Minister Kono Realization Conference, he said that Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation would change the name of the public-private ITS concept and roadmap to the mobility roadmap and restart it. I think that he really expressed his determination, and I would like to advance with your cooperation this time.

Around the end of this fiscal year, the Government of Japan as a whole will adopt a Cabinet decision on the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifelines, in which autonomous mobility plays an extremely important role.

The construction of the third phase smart mobility platform will also begin in SIP. I have been appointed as the program director, and the world is definitely moving in that direction, so I would like to do my best with your support. Thank you.

First of all, although the greeting was long, I would like to proceed according to the agenda from now on. First of all, please explain from the secretariat how to proceed with this study meeting on agenda item 2.

Director for Policy Planning Suzuki: A person from the Secretariat would like to give an explanation. First, I would like to briefly explain the background in Document 4.

First, from page 2 is a review of the public-private ITS concept and roadmap. The roadmap has been updated every year since 2014 and continued until 2021. Then, in 2022, it was created as "Future of Transportation Society Utilizing Digital 2022". The results of the initiatives are shown on the right.

This is a review of last year. As for the awareness of the issues, we have discussed issues on the demand side for social implementation in an integrated manner, and issues on the entire social system around parts other than vehicles.

Last year's workshop was held four times last spring, and Professor Ishida organized it.

In the future, we need to keep a close eye on the demand side, and on the supply side, in addition to autonomous driving, we have newly expanded the scope to cooperative areas in the mobility field, such as road space, mobility services, MaaS, drones, and flying cars.

In the "11 Perspectives on Service Design," he has indicated broad directions, such as deciding where to aim for in each region, considering where to aim for from a "livelihood perspective," and not considering a business model for mobility alone.

In terms of the direction of future initiatives, Professor Ishida mentioned earlier about the content of Mr. Kono, Minister for Digital Transformation,'s explanation at the Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation Realization Conference on March 31, and he indicated that it will not be just a demonstration, but will be restarted as a mobility roadmap that will lead to its implementation in society.

This is an introduction to the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifelines. The basic concepts are "from point to line and plane" and "from demonstration to implementation," and the number of self-driving car services is also shown.

In the schedule of the National Comprehensive Plan for the Development of Digital Lifelines, we are aiming for the end of fiscal 2023, and we would like to work on the Mobility Roadmap along these lines.

Next, as for reference cases, I would like to introduce a few materials that may be useful for discussions on self-help, mutual assistance, and public assistance, as Murakami explained at the beginning.

For self-help, we attach reference materials on business models and individual systems.

Mr. BOLDLY introduced in the report of Sakaimachi, Ibaragi Prefecture that it is difficult to build a sustainable business model with only fares.

This is an initiative of Sakaimachi, Ibaragi Prefecture. By single-sign-on, users can receive various services such as drones in addition to autonomous driving without being aware of the mode. This advanced service is being conducted using Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation's issue Gold.

In the case of Asahimachi in Toyama prefecture, they are providing advanced services such as riding together in a private car. They are also providing mobility services such as health classes and nature experience classes to encourage people to move. In addition, they are providing mobility services as a whole, including point systems.

In the case of Mitoyo City in Kagawa prefecture, I would like to hear about how the KPI is set from the perspective of social impact, not just revenue, in the second half of this study group.

I would like to ask about cooperation related to cooperative control and common Architecture.

Architecture's consideration on autonomous mobile robots is advancing as a whole, including on how to provide mutual assistance.

In terms of four dimensional space-time ID, we are considering a universal ID including three dimensional space and time axis.

Amidst this, we are also considering verification test in Digital Agency for coordinated operation of autonomous mobile mobility.

It is about mutual assistance, and it is a reference material about hard infrastructure and system.

In terms of how to think about roads centered on automobiles, overseas examples include the coexistence of pedestrians and vehicles, the priority given to pedestrians, and the use of bicycles. This is what was shown in last year's "Future of Transportation Society Utilizing Digital 2022".

This is shown from the perspective of what kind of trouble occurred during the verification test and actual operation of the automatic operation. There are examples of contact and trouble when switching from automatic operation to manual operation.

Regarding the rules within the train track, there is a rule that if there is a dedicated lane for Japanese streetcars, basically priority is given to cars on the track.

In the case of the State of Michigan in the United States, a dedicated self-driving vehicle lane has been established between Detroit and Ann Arbor, and infrastructure development is underway to utilize self-driving vehicles.

Sorry to rush you, but that's all about the case.

I would like you to return to Handout 3, and in (3) on page 2, I will explain how we will proceed with this study. As stated in (1), through the study by this study group, I would like you to present various issues that need to be sorted out in the future, and I would like to ask this study group to sort out matters that should be further studied in the future and matters that should be made into a roadmap.

With regard to (ii), under Meeting for the Promotion of a Digital Society, we will create a formal forum for consideration and consider formulating a draft of the roadmap, in which we will address various issues that have been summarized this time.

In (iii), we are considering reflecting these issues in the consideration of the Digital Lifeline. In (iv), we will coordinate the future consideration, the consideration at the National Council for the Realization of Comprehensive Development of Digital Lifelines, the consideration at the SIP, and various other considerations to be made by the government and the private sector, and finally compile the Mobility Roadmap 2024 as an overall roadmap for the mobility field toward the end of the fiscal year.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, .

Today, three of us, including myself, will give a presentation, and we will discuss based on it. We are not going to make a particular conclusion, but we are going to logically organize the points of discussion so that we can put them here and there. I think the discussion will probably be lively, so we have scheduled it until 12:30 today, but there is a possibility that it will be extended, so I am sorry, but I hope you will understand it. Those who will participate will be able to post questions and opinions during the Teams chat, so please post them at any time you like.

First, I would like to report.

In terms of the meaning of mobility, mobility is important for life and death, and mobility is also important for the purpose of living, and the environment surrounding it is changing greatly. Various technological developments are advancing, and at the same time, aging and rural areas are getting exhausted, so I think it is necessary to firmly grasp that it is really a race against time.

In this context, we will restart the Mobility Roadmap in order to meet our expectations. The original Public-Private Sector ITS Concept and Roadmap, which will be renamed, is decided at the ministerial level every year, and although we are not aware of its position, we will work hard to achieve content that is suitable for it. The first and second phases of automated driving, which achieved significant results in the SIP, were conducted in cooperation with the Public-Private Sector ITS Concept and Roadmap in a joint promotion meeting, and we would like to learn from them where we can learn from them.

In that context, today, I would like to talk about the construction of a smart mobility platform as an advertisement. From the perspective of people, goods, and services, we are thinking about how to implement it as a platform, including not only public transportation but also private cars and infrastructure.

Since it is digital, data science is necessary, so Professor Koshizuka of the University of Tokyo, Professor Nakamura, who focuses on transportation services, especially public transportation, Professor Hiyama of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association, who is involved in automobiles, and Professor Murase of Willer Transport, who is involved in startups, who is important, are helping us. Since mobility and health are very closely related to METI, MLIT, Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, National Police Agency, and, of course, Digital Agency, we are asking the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare to join us.

In this context, we have done a lot of smart mobility in the past, and we are considering both fast and big cars, mainly self-driving cars. However, with the aging of the population, people's happiness is important, so we are thinking mainly about what to do with everyday life in the neighborhood, whether it is people-centered or low-speed smart mobility.

In the report on the redesign of public transportation and regional transportation compiled by Professor Nakamura, the emphasis has been on the trunk branch, but what actually creates value is photosynthesis in the leaves, so the approach is to think about the leaves as well, and it is the Japan Mobility Data Space that supports this approach.

Currently, there are many data platforms, but data space is the biggest, and we are working hard to achieve it.

In order to realize this, we have selected three sub-themes and 19 technical issues, and I believe that some of these are naturally related.

The blue part on the left of page 7 shows the current situation, the system, and people's feelings. Based on this outlook, I would like to look at where there are weaknesses and which direction to attack as a strategy.

In the middle, technological development elements are strong, but we are pursuing specific technological elements. It is not just about moving things, but also about the way cities and roads should be, systems, data, and how to think about autonomous driving. In our case, we use the term "social systemization of autonomous driving" instead.

On the right is our view on the exit strategy for such technological elements. As we discussed a lot last year, we are thinking about how to form communities such as data communities, mobility communities, and business communities, which are based on trust and practical benefits. We are also thinking about what to do with local communities, and how to design the market, which is defined by a large framework, and we will do our best to pursue it.

My personal opinion is very large, but what I would like to work on is to realize safe, comfortable, and pleasant roads for daily life, or to build busy roads in the center of the country, which has already started in part. In general, various people are working hard, but I think that the major improvement of small roads has been considerably delayed.

The redesign of public transportation is also very important. If we look closely, we can see that there are a lot of mobility resources in the region, but they are not always available. There are problems in various places, and I think what we should think about in order to make the most of it is also an important theme. The movement of people is important, but equally important is the issue of logistics. We are facing a critical situation, so I would like to challenge that.

In order to realize it, we repeatedly implement the data space and social experiments as a basis. We conduct experiments, but it is difficult to implement them. In many cases, we get exhausted before the experiments, and it is good as long as the experiments go well.

In order to reduce that, it is important to create a digital sandbox on the digital twin and form a community.

Today, what I would like to emphasize in particular is traffic safety and the redesign of our daily living spaces. I believe this is a preaching to the Buddha, but this is the only country in the developed G7 where more than half of the fatal accidents are while walking or riding a bicycle. There is no other country like this. For example, in the U.S., the percentage of fatal traffic accidents where people are walking or riding a bicycle is around 20%.

Another noteworthy feature is that the percentage of elderly people is high. Recently, when it comes to elderly people's traffic accidents, there are many perpetrators, but in fact, there are many elderly people who become victims. It is imagined that such accidents occur on nearby roads, but there is not enough data to support it, and there are situations where data should be improved.

As I mentioned earlier, the maximum utilization and redesign of regional mobility resources have so far lacked consideration for the end of the road. Mainly in the trunk branch, there is no room to wait until that point is resolved, and I believe that the exhaustion of the region has reached that point.

In this regard, I would like to focus on the utilization of manufacturing technology and autonomous driving technology as well as community building. I have not written much about this, but the logistics system is also in a critical situation, so I would like to focus on it. Mobility data space and community formation technology are necessary foundations for that, so please tell me a lot about them.

In the remaining part, I would like to explain the safety of community roads by showing data.

This is the situation of traffic accidents. This is what I mentioned earlier. Although the overall number of vehicle traffic accidents is decreasing, I would like to emphasize the graph on the upper right of page 15, which says that it is especially noticeable on main roads and not so much on community roads. It is also true that there are many fatal accidents among the elderly.

As for the actual infrastructure, the picture on the right shows a road in front of an elementary school. Elementary school students are crossing a pedestrian crossing, but under the current Road Act, the entire road is a roadway. Moreover, the speed limit on this road is 60 kilometers. I will tell you why later. You would think that's a lie.

As for the infrastructure, the top is a photograph of Tsukuba, and the bottom is an aerial photograph of Tsuchiura. Tsukuba is a planned city, so you can see where the roads are, but you can't see Tsuchiura. It is a characteristic of Japanese roads that such a small network of roads stretches out like a mesh.

Compared with other countries, there are high-class residential areas such as Jiyugaoka and Notching Gate, and a new residential area such as defense in Paris. The shape and size of the roads are also clear at a glance. If you analyze the aerial photos, the bottom is a residential area. This is the photo I showed you earlier. Jiyugaoka has a very small average block area and a small road area ratio. However, the road extension density, that is, the total length of roads per square kilometer, is by far the largest. In short, there are many narrow roads.

I believe that the concept of constructing safe community roads in this kind of place cannot be the same as in European towns, and how to develop a Japanese style is very important.

However, in Europe, the concept of "humanizing road space" is more advanced. Ms. Sadik-Kahn, who has made pedestrian spaces in various places, mainly in Times Square in New York, used this concept when she gave a lecture in Japan. She argued that road space is the largest public open space in the region, which is much larger than a park, and that it is not right to allow cars to occupy it.

In New York, the share of cars is 35%, but I wonder if it's not strange that 70% to 80% of the road space is used by cars. In Tokyo, it's 16%. He gave a lecture in Japan on why people in Tokyo don't get angry and then came back.

This is shown in the picture above. There are so many cars, so many buses, and so many bicycles. In that sense, we have to consider the conversion of means and the transportation system. Also, driving a car by yourself and Uber and autonomous driving do not change the situation at all. How we think about this from now on is a very important responsibility for us.

As a result, in the United States of America, pedestrians are the most important means of transportation, followed by bicycles, public transportation, logistics, taxis, shared rides, and automobiles at the bottom. All over the United States, transportation plans are made based on these things.

It's easy to say, but it's actually hard to say, but about 20 years ago, the Way of Play started mainly in Germany, and children are playing soccer. This has spread all over Europe in a flash, and I've seen about 20 places in total, but unfortunately I've never seen children playing.

As you can see, it must be difficult, but when I went to France four years ago, I saw children playing soccer in front of an elementary school in Strasbourg, and I thought it was wonderful. It took about 30 years to build the city of Strasbourg, but I think we can do it if we persevere for 30 years. When I asked a person who went to France in September last year, I heard that this kind of scenery is spreading further. I would like to aim for this.

I showed you a shocking picture earlier. What is happening? I think this picture is the best. It shows the speed regulation in Setagaya Ward, the situation in Zone 30, and what kind of accidents are happening in each area. The data held by the police and the data held by the road administrator are shown in one drawing.

Actually, I haven't been able to do this. I tried it and it was quite easy to do. I wonder why they didn't do it. Let me tell you a characteristic thing. The road with many red dots on the left edge is a road that shows that there are many accidents. It is Kannana. The colored road is a road that has speed regulations. Red is 30 kilometers, and Kannana is 60 kilometers, which is the legal speed. It is not colored. Surprisingly, the road that looks like an alley in the picture I showed you just now, which is right next to Kannana, is also white.

On roads where there are no speed regulations, it is necessary for the Public Safety Commission of each prefecture to decide on the speed regulations, and in order to implement them, it is necessary to put up speed regulation signs. The police are already working very hard, but in order to get there, there is a lack of manpower and money, so it is a fact that they are neglecting it.

It is written that this is a period of great change in road traffic, and it is said that it is a once-in-a-century change for the current autonomous driving, CASE, and automobile industries. In fact, restoring road space to human hands more than 2000 years ago, on the roads of Rome, safety and efficiency were ensured by separation, which has been the history of mankind for a long time, and this is a big challenge.

In this context, I would like to think about what we should do with the mobility roadmap together with everyone, so I would like to conclude my presentation.

Thank you for your discussion. I would appreciate it if you, including the participating committee members, would feel free to ask any questions or comment on the web. What do you think?

Then, Mr. Hidaka, please.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set, just in one place in Ishida. It was very informative.

What I thought while listening to the talk now, and what I thought was very significant in this review meeting, is that I think the autonomous driving mentioned earlier is a technology, and how to use it was an important topic, and I once again felt the difficulty. As expected, when I think about what to do with roads, and what to do as an automobile and autonomous driving industry, it is better to have a large number of cars, but in that case, whether to run many self-driving cars on narrow roads, there are elements that are contrary to road safety and pleasant roads that Professor Ishida mentioned, and I have to talk comprehensively about roads, towns, economies, and industries while understanding the technology properly.

Moreover, I thought it would be very meaningful and difficult to do it in a difficult economic situation where the population is decreasing and the number of people is decreasing.

When I studied and read about smart cities from time to time, I realized that even overseas, rather than one expert doing everything, one expert taking multiple MBAs, doing architecture, getting several masters degrees, and getting into such a profession, and I also realized that it would be necessary to make the university community and field collaboration work well so that experts could share their knowledge well. I also realized that I had to study not only MaaS but many other things like that.

When we have data, we can objectively look at the accident rate, roads, automobiles, and speed. Even if you are not an expert, you can lower these figures or raise them. I think I learned a lot about these things. This is my comment, but that's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . How about something else? Go ahead, Mr. Kawabata.

Kawabata: I, too, think that this is very instructive, because I can listen to a multifaceted story, and if it is very instructive, I will not be able to solve it unless I work on it from various aspects, or I think it will be difficult to produce results.

In 2004, I was interviewed about how to obtain the consent of the residents to make the road a playground. I heard that children living there can vote if they can write. At that time, I was told that it doesn't matter if it doesn't produce results immediately, and that I think it will not penetrate until children use it when they grow up.

It will take about 10 to 20 years for the residents, and I think that the so-called education will produce results in a relatively short period of time. Therefore, I think that unless we create a city that is good for today's young people and create a city that is easy to raise children and live in when they grow up, and look at what kind of mobility is suitable for that, the development of road infrastructure will not be able to be done in the blink of an eye unlike digital.

When you talk about this, you always talk about digital at a high speed. At the same time, you also have to work on physical platforms, which will take at least five years, or 10, 15, or 20 years depending on the situation. I think Professor Ishida is a specialist in this field, but I think the assumption is that we have to work 20 years or a quarter of a century ahead.

In fact, when I interviewed about three countries, including France and Germany, all of them said that in Europe, 100 is divided by 4, which is a quarter of a century. But when we think in units of 25 years, we think that road infrastructure, social infrastructure, and social acceptance take one generation. Among the three perspectives, non-consolidated deficits and social impact are very important. I thought that it would be a big thing for the conference to look at the total, especially for the government, rather than talking about non-consolidated deficits or surpluses from a long-term perspective considering social impact.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . Suda-sensei, please.

Suda: Thank you, Mr. . Thank you very much, Mr. Ishida. I have been talking with Mr. Ishida since yesterday at meetings of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism and various other places. Thank you very much for giving me a very useful talk today.

Based on what you've told me, I agree that we have to do things like Zone 30 properly. When I walk on the street, there are many places where there are more pedestrians but cars are given priority over pedestrians, and I feel there is a contradiction on a daily basis.

On the other hand, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) is also considering the use of ASVs for automobiles. Even if we do not go as far as autonomous driving, we are thinking about introducing a system to prevent the speed of so-called safe driving support vehicles from exceeding a certain level through infrastructure coordination. I have been thinking for a long time that if we make good use of so-called vehicle-to-vehicle communication and road-to-vehicle communication using digital technology, we will be able to achieve something like absolutely no speed on these narrow streets.

Therefore, I thought that it would be good if this place could develop well for such a story. That is all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . Compared to last year, your enthusiasm seems to be worse. Yes, Okamoto-san, please.

Mr. Okamoto: I am Okamoto from TEPCO Power Grid. Thank you very much. When I listened to your talk, I learned a lot, and I sympathize with you because I think it is about rebuilding this space of roads centered on people.

I am also a specialist in infrastructure. In a sense, the roads that are currently being built can be said to be very well developed, and they cannot be rebuilt from now on. Therefore, I think it is an issue of how to rebuild existing roads with human centered systems and technology. This is a very challenging but important initiative, and I am very impressed by it.

In addition, I would like to say that our electrical network is also very dense, and after listening to your talk today, I once again felt that it is so because our network is built along the roads.

I look forward to working with you in the future. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . Come in, Mr. Muramatsu.

Member MURAMATSU: Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Hidaka Director-General said at the beginning, the most important thing is to do it as a business.

In the end, it may be a bad way to say, but if each company thinks that it will become a business, I think that investment will be encouraged and the industry will grow. In terms of how to attract investment, I think it is important to reduce the barriers to entry as an industry, in other words, to prepare social infrastructure and sharable data in advance.

I specialize in the field of robots, but I would like to contribute to the creation of a platform that can be used both indoors and outdoors, including the maintenance of those things. Thank you very much. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, .

Director-General Murakami: Excuse me, I would like to leave you around the end of Saji's presentation, but I just want to say one thing.

We don't focus only on local areas and public transportation, but I think that's what's most urgent. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) has also released a document. There are about 150,000 people in large malls, about 70,000 to 80000 people in large supermarkets, about 40000 people in sports clubs, about 10,000 people in hospitals with multiple subjects, and about 600 people in clinics, but as the population decreases, infrastructure services that support life will be lacking.

However, although this analysis has not been done yet, if you look at it according to the form of mobility provision, even from a place with a population of about 60 to 70000, buses and taxis are starting to scream, and community buses are coming in, but each of them is suffering from a decrease in the number of people while remaining in the red. After nine years of regional revitalization, the most common pattern is that mobility disappears first and people give up living there. Electricity is the one that is working hard until the last house, and I have heard a joke that he became the president after watching a program called A Solitary House with No Room for Living. Under such circumstances, it would be good if there is a point of view on how to create a mobility service that does not collapse at the beginning, and Professor Ishida actively suggested that it would be good to discuss data as much as possible. I think there are aspects where the discussion will change depending on the scale of the business and the assumption of the location, but if you listen to me while keeping such a point of view, I think that the next discussion on profitability can be done with subsidies, but it will not continue after that. Excuse me for interrupting, but I hope you will continue to consider it vigorously. Thank you very much for today.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, I would like to ask for your permission to make a few additional comments. The issue of children's safety while commuting to school is a very big issue, and while you are actively working on it in various places, when I talk with mothers in the field, the overwhelming opinion is that they want sidewalks to be added here. However, as I showed you earlier, sidewalks cannot be added on narrow roads. As you just mentioned, I think it is about how to use the existing ones using the power of IT, whether to make them safe, and how to change their functions without physically changing them.

It has something to do with public transportation, and there are various mobility tests going on right now, but for example, I think it would be a waste not to be able to put people in freight cars. In reality, Switzerland is doing such a thing, or if we make a contract with a company here, the general public will not be able to get a ride. If we make a contract with this city, people in the neighboring town will not be able to get a ride, which is wasteful. Based on that, how we can use them up, and I think the role of digital technology is very important, so I would like to focus on that point of view.

Next, I would like to have a presentation from Mr. Saji who is on standby. Thank you.

Mr. Saji: First of all, Mr. Suda, thank you very much. As for signal coordination, if we try various existing technologies in the 2020s, I would like to discuss who should bear the budget regardless of the technology, and a scheme for sharing responsibilities. The 2020s is such a period. The technology itself will be constantly updated. The generation of mobile phones will also change, such as 3G, 4G, and 5G. If we look back after it has spread, the cost incurred in the first trial and error is like an error, so now we should do it with courage. Standardization should be done after that. I think this is a good way to go. Yes, please. I will share the screen right away. This is Sakaimachi, Ibaragi Prefecture, which is currently being monitored in real time. Local residents are working as operation staff and will start automatic operation, and local residents are using it to go to hospitals and supermarkets on a daily basis. I am not running right now, so I would like to start my presentation first.

We would like to make a presentation to clarify various points of discussion for the social implementation of self-driving buses. We are not a car dealer, but a remote monitoring platform IT operator. We are making a system for traffic operators and local operators to control self-driving, and we are opening the API and system so that various operators can use it.

It has been used in various countries around the world. For example, we have connected 30 types of self-driving buses. Among domestic manufacturers, there are Toyota and venture companies. Their vehicles can be remotely monitored by one system.

However, such a system will only make money after autonomous buses become widespread. Therefore, we have held demonstrations of autonomous buses nationwide to show examples of how autonomous driving can be useful.

Then, it is no longer a demonstration, but there are areas where local governments and companies want to buy vehicles and own them in the area to put autonomous buses into practical use. We have achieved practical use in four areas within our company, but from the point of view of local passengers and citizens, it seems that the bus operator that had been operating in the area until then is operating a mixture of manually operated buses and autonomous buses, so the company BOLDLY is a black sheep and is not seen by local residents.

However, we hear local requests from the bus company and pass them on to the manufacturer, or if there is insufficient technology, we go back and do research with suppliers and universities, incorporate it into the manufacturer, make it into a form that can be operated in the region, and give it to the manufacturer in a package.

For example, in Sakaimachi, there are not so many people on board, so they said they would rather increase the number of small buses and increase the number of flights accordingly. How about these vehicles? They said there are small electric buses. If we procure these vehicles and provide a system that can manage the operation of these vehicles in the region, it would be like buying a mobile phone, so everyone has to do initial setup such as setting up their e-mail address and credit card. When it comes to initial setup of an automated bus, we make a 3D map and program bus stops and routes on the map.

It takes about one or two weeks for BOLDY to operate in each region and train human resources so that local people can operate trains. We train remote monitors, car operators, and people in automobile factories so that they can perform maintenance in the region. In this way, our mission is to work like a catalyst to DX local public transportation and boost the local economy.

Here, I would like to show how much self-driving buses will be accepted by the society and their potential. When our company conducted an experiment in a town called Yazu-cho, Tottori, residents put up a banner on the self-driving route and said thank you. I understand that this is the reverse of the fact that you can't live without self-driving buses. They are very reliable.

As for Sakaimachi, which has put autonomous driving into practical use, it has been two years and six months now and is operating without any accidents. About 17000 people have used it as a means of transportation necessary for their lives. Everyone who has actually ridden it smiles, and I can clearly see that it is used by people of all ages.

And for example, children are doing independent research during summer vacation, and mothers are tweeting on Instagram that they enjoyed riding it. In addition, there are people who want to support self-driving buses and people who want to eat baked cakes, and they are very loved while they are operating.

Three years ago, when the self-driving buses started operating, the children who were older than us sent us pictures from their mothers, saying that they entered elementary school last year. And this year is already the third year, so they are in the second grade, so we are also moved by the fact that they are now tall enough to reach the bus window.

For these children, self-driving buses are already a normal part of their lives. They meet in the bus to go to the park, so self-driving buses have become a part of their lives.

If you ask me whether a self-driving bus is perfect as a technology, that's not true. There are still many issues to be solved for this self-driving bus vehicle. However, this bus has been in operation for three years, with the idea that the local community will consider whether to adopt it or not, and if there is a safety problem, the local community will consider countermeasures and take responsibility for it.

Since the circumstances of each region are different, when introducing autonomous buses, I believe that there is a principle that the region decides the introduction, that the region operates and nurtures it responsibly, and that it is the role of the central government to support it, rather than imposing a uniform funding scheme and technology.

The current National Police Agency and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism are doing this well, and they are very supportive. For example, as a subsidy project for regional implementation, 600 million yen was allocated last year, and 4.3 billion yen this year.

We will distribute these to the regions, and we will try them out first, and then we will create each region's own way of doing things. On top of that, there is already a plan to do it in 50 regions in 2025 and 100 regions in 2030. By doing it in 100 regions, individual solutions will be accumulated, and based on them, guidelines and laws will be created, I think.

In a word, I think it is the same as the Internet. The central government is not trying to impose top-down rules like "Do this." It is an era in which individual solutions and optimal solutions for local communities are accumulated in a speedy manner by establishing rules based on the results of case studies.

As for BOLDLY's position as an implementation contractor, as Professor Ishida pointed out, the current situation is that the contractor for such a subsidy project ends up in verification test.

For example, in FY 2021, verification test trains were operated in nine regions, but operations were suspended in all regions except for the three regions where BOLDLY was adopted. I believe that the reason why it has not been put to practical use is the difference in the goal setting. In general, when it comes to experiments, operators from Tokyo come to the region and just let them run for the time being, and then they go home, leaving nothing in the region. However, our goal is to create a situation where we can operate in the region.

What we are doing is, for example, to do autonomous driving, how many cars do you want to do, in what form do you want to buy, and how many years do you want to do it? If you decide these conditions, you will already have a budget.

The problem is how to use this budget. For example, in Sakaimachi, Ibaragi Prefecture, it costs 500 million yen to operate three cars automatically. Here is the list of jobs to be done with this budget. From the left, planning. For example, making an operation plan, research, and preparation. In detail, administrative procedures include submitting documents to the Transport Bureau. In preparation for using vehicles, making maps, programming, and bringing in vehicles for test driving and actual introduction. We also train local human resources, provide maintenance support in case of breakdown, and purchase insurance. These are all things we do. We build everything in the community.

In the beginning, even if I ask them to do everything locally, they can't do it, so BOLDLY will do this yellow part. But gradually from the second and third time, when extending the self-driving bus route, local government coordination will be done by the local transportation business operator, and in addition, documents will be submitted by the local transportation business operator. Or, for such technical parts, we will reduce the yellow area by teaching the work, such as asking local vendors.

In other words, local transportation companies and partner companies will start to receive jobs, and in the case of Sakaimachi, about half of the 520 million yen budget will be implemented as local jobs, which will lead to their employment. In such a form, it will go around without us, and it will become a business model that circulates within the community.

Now, in terms of the business model, the amount of money to spend, I just said 520 million yen, but please think of it as 100 million yen per year. This is a copy of the handout distributed by the town to the citizens, and it says that 90 million yen was spent. Now, two years have passed, so it means that about 200 million yen was spent.

In Sakaimachi, it is said that the economic effect was 1.3 billion yen. I think this is a huge number, but there are various breakdowns. The self-driving bus was reported in the media, and Sakaimachi itself became famous. More people moved in, and more people wanted to support the hometown tax. Cash is coming in as a cash-in. It has a huge effect. It is 100 million yen a year, so if it collects 130 million yen, it will be sustainable.

In addition, when we apply for the Digital Garden City State or the Regional Revitalization issue Fund in various non-transportation businesses such as medical care, social welfare, environmental protection, and tourism, I think that the government office is considering policies from a higher perspective with autonomous driving, such as not only education but also IT education for elementary school students by combining autonomous driving and education.

It was adopted in Aichi prefecture under the theme of cooperation between My Number Card and autonomous driving. In this way, the city is getting better and better at an accelerated pace. In Sakaimachi, there were three buses in operation, and this fiscal year, we are going to purchase five more. The bus business is often thought of as a negative cycle of public transportation, in which the bus schedule is reduced due to a shortage of drivers, the number of passengers is further reduced due to inconvenience, and the number of services is further reduced. On the contrary, autonomous driving is a positive cycle, in which the more you drive, the more people talk about it, attracting new opportunities and using the money to further increase the number of buses.

As an elevator that moves sideways like this, Sakaimachi has a zero fare policy. People ask me if it's OK not to charge fares, but it's true that the transportation sector is in the red. However, such efforts are being made all over the country. For example, in Okayama Prefecture and Kumamoto City, when they implemented a free fare day and made manual buses free of charge, for example, the number of shoppers increased and the local economy improved, and there was a report that it had an economic effect of 500 million yen in a day.

In the first place, I wonder if fares are necessary. Before that, I have to think that the right to move is a part of basic human rights. In a city, the roads look like this, the places where people gather look like this, or if I list the bus stops that everyone wants to get on, there are about this many. Then, how many self-driving buses and manually driving buses are run, and how much it costs, can be calculated automatically to some extent.

In other words, the necessary cost of public transportation can be calculated based on the size of the city and its future vision. I think there is a difference between the current cost of transportation and the original cost of transportation. At present, the current cost is collected through fares, and the government compensates for the portion that cannot be collected. A deficit-covering subsidy is provided to transportation companies, but I think that the necessary budget should be supplemented to protect the right to move.

For example, France's deficit compensation for public transportation is very different from that of Japan. The way of setting the budget can be very different. There are examples like that. In fact, the subsidy for public transportation, the top is the subsidy, and the bottom is the fare revenue. The fare revenue will certainly decrease as the population decreases. Therefore, the subsidy will also tend to increase.

It may be possible to make it look as if the central government subsidy has been reduced for a moment by transferring it to the prefectural government, but the subsidy for transportation as a whole is increasing. Rather than gradually increasing it, the 2010s was an era in which we managed to make it look like we were making a profit by closing down lines and reducing the number of trains. However, since this is an era of regional revitalization, I believe that it is necessary to steadily bear the burden for town development from the 2020s.

By doing so, the necessary number of flights will be secured for the first time, and the total amount of travel will increase, which will lead to a healthy movement in traffic fare revenue. In this movement, buying EVs and self-driving cars and updating vehicles is the original healthy figure, but I think that such investment effects will not appear unless we change our thinking at some point.

While the number of loss-making routes in the region is increasing steadily, there are some money-making routes, and I think it is okay to charge fares here. It is a bit impossible to maintain loss-making routes only with fares. However, if there is a scheme that can reduce the deficit, I think it should be continued. If the costs that are being incurred are indicated by the red arrow a, and if the costs have been reduced to b by improving the management, the deficit cannot be covered by the fare revenue alone. It is necessary to evaluate the efforts that have been made to reduce the overall deficit and improve the management of the entire region.

What I have just mentioned is the costs that should have been incurred. When we compare the actual costs, in terms of the reduction of those costs, we must continue to maintain local public transport in Japan by running a deficit, but the part that has run a deficit and has reduced traffic must be viewed as cost-effectiveness.

The other is that the ripple effects outside the transportation sector must also be seen as the effects of transportation. The amount that has been reduced and the amount that has been increased as a ripple effect must be taken as an absolute value and used to aim for the effects of autonomous driving and MaaS businesses. Such a change in thinking is necessary. In this case, for an elevator that moves horizontally, I don't think anyone has ever paid 100 yen or 200 yen to get on an elevator, but the vertically moving elevator is free, so why is it charged for the horizontally moving elevator?

In a place called Haneda Innovation City near Haneda Airport, the cost of self-driving and side-by-side elevators is built into the rent and common area charges. Therefore, it can be maintained and managed forever without receiving fares from passengers. Such a business model has already been achieved. Unmanned nighttime driving is being implemented in Haneda Innovation City, and we will apply for Level 4 in the future.

In addition, in the area called VISION in Mie Prefecture, a new type of vehicle was driven the other day. In VISION, a level 4 exclusive road has already been secured, and unmanned transportation is immediately possible in such a place. Here, facilities and shops that have moved in have also started a system to cover the fare with common area charges to benefit from the presence of this vehicle. Now, let's do it on a town-by-town basis.

Sakaimachi is free of charge and has been operating self-driving cars for two and a half years. I would like to talk about what roles we expect from local transportation companies and how we would like to change society as a whole.

It's not that BOLDLY wants to operate and operate self-driving buses nationwide. There are already hundreds of transportation companies that have supported local transportation nationwide, so it would be good if they evolve and realize a society that uses self-driving cars efficiently. Therefore, the main players are local transportation companies and they are watching the inside and outside of self-driving buses to see if they are dangerous and if there are no abnormalities.

In the remote monitoring system, for example, how do you check the safety of the inside of the car? Even though we know that the self-driving bus itself is safe, in fact, there are many things that happen in the car, such as passengers suddenly getting up and walking, or children making noise. We monitor the situation with AI, and if something happens, it will be notified to the remote manager, which is a safe and secure monitoring system.

For example, it is not enough to just say that the self-driving bus will leave and go when the time comes. In contrast to people who say that they will get up and walk down now, instead of saying that they will leave when the time comes, everyone will get off and the self-driving bus will run after making sure that the new passenger has properly sat down. We are doing such things. Therefore, when we become a world where one person can remotely manage and watch over five or ten cars, the efficiency of the understaffed manually operated bus industry will increase.

Let's take a look at the Sakaimachi. This car is running. I wish there were people in the car somewhere. It looks like this now. There are passengers, but nothing unusual has happened. For example, a strong brake has been triggered. Even if there is a slight shaking, it is detected that the brake is strong to some extent, and this remote monitor is notified. When this strong brake comes, the remote monitor checks the video of the inside and outside of the car to see if there is a fallen passenger, and presses this response completion button. If there is a fallen passenger, the staff in the car will contact the police and the hospital to rescue him. And the remote monitor communicates the information that the train schedule will be delayed among local governments, the police, and transportation companies. In other words, the roles are divided between the remote side and the site.

In addition, where does the autonomous bus apply the brakes? We compile such data every day. The trend is quite different from day to day, but for example, why is it easy to apply the brakes in such a place? In fact, it is easy for the site because the road is narrow. If an oncoming car runs out into the lane when the autonomous bus is running, it is easy to detect it and apply the brakes. There are such things, but in order to make it comfortable to ride when the brakes are applied, we try to drive a little slower here, install a mirror so that the autonomous bus can be seen from the oncoming car, and use it to improve the road environment. In this way, with autonomous driving as a trigger, communities are thinking with their own minds and updating industries one by one.

And in this one area, there are cases where one remote observer leaves his or her seat while watching. In such cases, one person actually watches four areas. Here it is. The actual remote monitoring center in Sakaimachi, Ibaragi Prefecture. Self-driving buses in Hokkaido, Aichi, and Haneda Innovation City can also be seen from Sakaimachi. When the on-site manager goes for a lunch break or a toilet break, he or she says he or she will pass on the baton to Sakaimachi, and they monitor each other.

As of 2030, I would like to see hand-operated buses operating smoothly, but I think that the number of hand-operated buses, which currently stands at 60000, will increase to about 50000 due to a shortage of manpower. Such hand-operated buses will take over as much of the main arterial traffic as possible, and for terminal traffic where manpower is not available, we will spread self-driving buses. We will train human resources to monitor it and hire them as workers nationwide. We would like to create an industry structure in such a way. The advantages for transportation companies are as I have just mentioned.

Even if driving becomes automatic, the role of people is very important. I would like to hire such necessary people in the community and increase them steadily. The drivers of bus companies are aging, but many young people are employed as staff for self-driving buses, rejuvenating the local bus companies. In addition, the employment rate of women is four times higher than that of ordinary drivers. So, let's rejuvenate the community and update self-driving buses.

Through the children, we are making self-driving buses better and better, but if we all learn about the less-than-perfect mechanism of self-driving. First of all, what is the difference between the human eye and the automatic? It's not about which one is better, but rather, we understand the difference. In this way, children tell adults that self-driving buses are great in this way, but they are not perfect here. Now we are in an era where self-driving buses are used as souvenirs for happy sets and the like, and we want to deepen our understanding of society through the education of children.

To summarize, I have been talking mainly about social situations, but I would like to discuss both technology and schemes. Self-driving buses require not only cars, but also infrastructure technology and various other things.

Regarding this infrastructure, the current situation is that only traffic lights have to be passed manually in Sakaimachi. Regarding the technology of traffic lights, there have been many discussions on the technology of cooperation between self-driving cars and traffic lights, but we are only talking about that technology.

The most important thing is that discussions on the scheme, such as which budget will implement it, who will do it, and what responsibilities will be taken, have not started yet. That is exactly what I heard is the theme of this meeting.

When the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) and National Police Agency talk about the technology and talk about the scheme, they end up saying that it is neither ball. That's right. This time, the digital garden city issue Kin was added for three years of automatic operation in Sakaimachi, Ibaragi Prefecture, and the cost for implementing the signal was received. By utilizing such things, we would like to continue discussions on what kind of scheme is necessary for nationwide dissemination. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . I would appreciate any questions or comments. What do you think? Yes, Mr. Koda, please.

Member Koda: AsMama. Thank you very much. In fact, I went to Sakaimachi to see the self-driving system. In particular, as Professor Ishida mentioned earlier, I thought it would be very effective to ensure the safety and security of children commuting to school by running these self-driving buses, even in places where there are no places where children can walk.

Also, when I actually went there, I could see that the data was managed very well, and when people tried to pass in front of the bus, the bus stopped. I thought that the safety management was done so well that I thought this bus might have brains attached to it, and I thought that was a wonderful thing because it was digitally used.

What I found very interesting in Mr. Saji's talk was the fact that by making a proper digitalisation of demographic trends and a city map, we will be able to run the self-driving buses that are really necessary. I found it very interesting that such things can be properly analyzed, and I thought that the Government should actively intervene in such areas.

On the other hand, as you can see when you go there, the speed is extremely slow. I think it's because safety is ensured, but also, the last mile, for example, if you want us to go to the entrance of the hospital, we can't do it. Of course, if you want us to go this far, it's public transportation, so we can't compete with it. Also, we want you to hurry.

In rural areas, buses and trains are not enough to support people's lives, and there are many places where there is only one bus or train per hour. In such places, as you mentioned at the beginning, I believe that ride-sharing is an initiative that should be actively introduced in parallel with autonomous driving, as it does not require any infrastructure costs.

In fact, if we want to expand ride-sharing, for example, autonomous driving and ride-sharing to rural areas, local governments that have to think about local transportation within local governments cannot flexibly do something like ride-sharing. Is it really people-centered? Are roads really public spaces? We need to think carefully. In this area, we should actively introduce ride-sharing, and if there is movement of residents, we should actively introduce autonomous buses. I think these points are very important.

Finally, if you go there, you will see that Mr. Saji is communicating with the residents of the Sakaimachi very well. This is not something that can be done even by a place other than BOLDY. The sense of security of the residents has been greatly gained through humanity, so I think the government should take the lead in announcing the sense of security and safety using data. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, Yes, thank you very much. I would like to ask all of your questions and comments, and Saji-san will answer them later. Yes, Yamamoto-san, please.

Yamamoto: Yes. This is ITS Japan Yamamoto speaking. Thank you very much, Mr. Saji. We, ITS Japan, have been experiencing the self-driving car that Mr. Saji is developing in various places.

In Saji's presentation, what is very important is that Saji's know-how needs to be shared more and more. Not only that it worked, but also that it didn't work. I think there are quite a few hurdles.

For example, yesterday, when I talked with a member of BOLDY, when you cross a sidewalk, you have to stop. Even if there is no one there. How about this? There are already sensors, so you don't have to stop for 10 to 15 meters. If there is no one there, you don't have to stop. This kind of thing is also true. Also, Hitachi's BRT, which was also talked about yesterday, runs as a BRT. I think this is a very good methodology to increase the number of self-driving services in dozens of places, but BRT stops at railroad crossings. How about this? I don't say that all of these hurdles that are really not going well are all, but I think it would be better to put something in the roadmap for the process of solving the problem in some way by turning the PDCA cycle in the roadmap.

Also, ITS Japan has been talking with local governments about various things. For example, we went to Kochi prefecture and asked them to help us with the public transportation system, measures to promote the use of public transportation, and how to share the cost. But actually, they are a bit rude, but they don't talk much with other local governments. They say they are doing well in Kumamoto, so they can't help us. How are they doing in Toyama together with Kumamoto? Such a system of sharing among local governments is a bit of a management process, but I think it would be better to include it in the roadmap.

And finally, Mr. Koda said, "Ride-sharing." I really think so. Not only local people but also inbound people. I went to Portugal last week, and I'm really relieved. Even if I walk around many places, I can just take Uber at the end. It doesn't mean that it will be introduced in all areas. The place I live near is a so-called tourist spot, but I don't think I can enter such a place. However, if I can enter a local area through local revitalization, young people can work on the side and earn money there, and in the utilization of local resources in the public assistance that Mr. Ishida said, I don't think the resources are limited to transportation companies. There are a lot of things going on at the Local Public Transportation Conference now, but I think we should talk about it. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, Yes, thank you very much.

Mr. Saji, I would like to ask you a question. You showed me the example of Sakaimachi today, and I believe that it is largely first mover advantage. As it expands and such benefits fade away, what do you think is necessary and how do you intend to develop it?

Mr. Saji: First of all, Mr. Suda, thank you very much. As for signal coordination, if we try various existing technologies in the 2020s, I would like to discuss who should bear the budget regardless of the technology, and a scheme for sharing responsibilities. The 2020s is such a period. The technology itself will be constantly updated. The generation of mobile phones will also change, such as 3G, 4G, and 5G. If we look back after it has spread, the cost incurred in the first trial and error is like an error, so now we should do it with courage. Standardization should be done after that. I think this is a good way to go. . Thank you, Mr. Koda. As for the social implementation of the self-driving bus, I have been deeply involved in the community, and that was certainly the case in Sakaimachi. I have been deeply involved for about a year now before putting it into practical use. I was taught by Mr. Murase of WILLER that if you are motivated, you should live there for two years, so it didn't come true, but I think it was quite effective by doing that.

On the other hand, BOLDLY's employees, including new employees, have come all over the country just because I teach them that mindset. For example, Iyoshi in Ehime prefecture and Kamishihoro-cho in Hokkaidō. Not only are there many grandparents, but there are also many mom friends. There are many employees who are in such a state, and if you leave them with me for three months, I am confident that I can raise them all in such a way.

Therefore, I believe this is a scheme that can be developed horizontally to other companies. The only difference is the goal setting. For example, universities and others that aim to verify technologies. I believe there are venture companies, but I think it is necessary to raise the level of those people.

Doesn't your company's technology really end with technology? Are you willing to make a product? Are you willing to sell it as a service? Are you willing to guarantee it? We are in a state where we can give know-how as much as we want after thorough discussions. There are some business operators who actually came to us for training and learned it and returned it.

Next, as you pointed out, I think that only the first movers will benefit, but I think that there is a kind of bubble. However, at least in Kamishihoro-cho and Nisshin City, Aichi, last fiscal year was a single-year project, but this fiscal year, local governments are budgeting it properly and continuing it. For one thing, there is an argument that we should not think only about the transportation sector, but we should make a comprehensive judgment on what benefits local residents will have.

The other thing is that we actually have something to do before we start selling self-driving buses. For example, if we look at the situation in the area and see if there are tangerines or dried bonito in this area, we will PR them and send them to the Benefit-Your-Locality Hometown Tax. The Benefit-Your-Locality Hometown Tax is just one way, but if we do that, we will receive 300 million yen or 500 million yen in tax revenue as a donation to the area.

Then, with the 500 million yen that has been collected, let's use 50 million yen to operate the self-driving bus. Then, let's use the remaining 25 million yen for medical care. Let's use it for education. So, there is no point if there are no people who use the self-driving bus, such as the elderly or children, to take care of themselves. Furthermore, we will spend money on tourism and base development. There are 250 million, so, such places, support for opening stores, etc. We will also create such destinations. We will think together about how to operate the self-driving bus.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, Yes, thank you very much. Suda-sensei and Koshizuka-sensei are raising their hands, so can I ask Suda-sensei?

Suda: Thank you, Mr. Yes, this is Suda. Thank you very much, Saji. I have been involved in quite a lot of things, so I would like to ask you to introduce me to you.

In Sakaimachi, I believe we were able to start signal coordination for infrastructure coordination. If you could tell us what kind of coordination would be ideal for Mr. Saji, I think you would be able to understand the issues. So, if you have any issues or requests, I think it would be good for you to talk about them. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, Thank you very much. Next, Mr. Koshizuka, please.

Koshizuka Member: Yes, my name is Koshizuka. Thank you very much. I am not a transportation company, but I am a digital company. In the meetings so far, there have been various discussions about the importance of data. When we talk about data and data infrastructure, we generally say that we all have to do it in the general discussion and that it is important, but when we think about specific things one by one, what exactly do we need to do? That kind of thing is common, and I would like to ask Mr. Saji, who is actually operating the system the most, about what he is having trouble with because he cannot use the data he actually has. On the other hand, if there is a request from the field on the data side, please let me know. Thank you.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, , please come in.

Next, do you have any data that you wish you couldn't use? It's like a robot that generates data while reflecting traffic conditions, such as how many minutes the bus was delayed, while using our company's highly accurate GPS information.

In addition, by doing so, we can actually provide feedback on where the self-driving bus could not pass smoothly, where there was on-street parking, where there was road construction, and so on, and we would like to link that with disaster information and road maintenance information.

In addition, when setting up an automated bus, we have to make 3D maps one by one, but if the data that will become such a digital infrastructure is developed under the guidance of the government, manufacturers will not make 3D maps based on different standards later, and by using existing data, social implementation will progress at low cost. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, Yes, thank you very much. Thank you for discussing the various points that should be included in the roadmap. Next, I would like to ask Mr. Hidaka to give a presentation and we will proceed with the discussion again. Thank you.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set, just in one place in MaaS Tech Japan. I will be announcing as a member today, so I would like to talk about the MaaS industry as a member rather than introducing our company.

As discussed earlier, various mobility services, including autonomous driving and ride sharing as mentioned by Commissioner Koda, are becoming implementable in the world. MaaS is not a mobility service itself, but rather an integration as defined in the MaaS Alliance white paper in 2017. The integration of various forms of transport services and various mobility services are integrated.

I think it is possible to choose one after integration, and since the movement of people is not limited to regional transportation, but also includes taking trains, taking buses, and going overseas by air, I think it will include how to integrate them for users and how to apply mobility to the region as an experience of the whole area.

In this case, I believe it is a very important concept not only for solving regional issues, but also for urban areas and Japan. In this context, I believe that there will be various forms of autonomous driving, ride-sharing, and demand-based transportation that link mobility services, and I believe that each type of mobility, including railways, is mobility. In contrast to railways, buses, and airlines, there is autonomous driving, which is something like what Boldly did, which runs at a certain low speed and meticulously, and something like a large bus that can accommodate dozens of people and can go 30 kilometers or 40 kilometers per hour. I believe there is talk about regulations on how many kilometers can be driven, but I believe that the so-called big, fast, and many people can ride, and the so-called small number of people but can move minutely, will be switched depending on the characteristics of the town and the characteristics of the highway. In this mobility roadmap, I believe it is good to have mobility services in place, and this is just an outline, but I think it would be good to be able to decide which ones can be made by regions based on it.

Mobility as a Services (MaaS). Various transportation companies, including mobility services such as those provided by BOLDLY, will be integrated into digital services. As for the point pointed out by a committee member earlier, I believe physical collaboration is very important, but we will integrate data, services, and operations in digital services, and optimize them for users and regions.

As a concept, it is very true, and I think that it is cooperation and integration that no one can deny, but when I actually try it, there are various things that need to be done, and it cannot be done quickly.

So, at this MaaS level, in the MaaS level written by the professor at Chalmers University of Technology, it's not about operations or driving, it's about the service layer, but there is no coordination. A single taxi is a taxi, a self-driving vehicle is a self-driving vehicle, and information is provided from separate things such as railways. It depends on the level of what time it runs, what time it's late, what should I do to get on it, and what should I do with the payment. Information provision is at level 1, reservation and payment are at level 2, and they are integrated. Level 3 is for services. I think it's a discussion that includes some adjustment of operations.

In Japan, there is the Anti-Monopoly Act, so it is difficult to coordinate among transportation companies on their own. However, I believe that the revision of the law will be made, so Level 3. Level 4 is the integration policy, and using these functions to solve policy issues in the area, including coordination of operations, which is not possible only with MaaS applications. I think there are various meanings in this gray area, but it is quite difficult to get to Level 4, but it is not possible to do everything just because policies are decided, and it is not possible to do it with technology, so I think we should work together with policy and technology to achieve it.

In that case, cooperation is necessary, investment is necessary, and competition is also necessary. I believe that the competition part and the co-creation part in the sense of collaboration and co-creation need to be separated. As I quoted from Mr. Digital Agency's document, in the concept of mutual assistance, the data-sharing infrastructure is described as something that should be done by one country, and I believe the same.

In particular, as for platform-like services and mobility services in general, we believe that they should be developed in a cooperative manner. For example, even if they are developed on a region-by-region basis, they cannot easily be monetized and attract difficult investment. We also believe that there are things that must be done by more than one operator, and that there are things that must be done by multiple local governments at the same time, rather than by a single local government. I believe that these are areas of mutual assistance.

For example, in Vienna, Austria, within the Transport Bureau, a platform for mobility services is funded by the local government, and the actual person in charge is a private company. By using such a platform, all mobility services would be unified.

This will not lead to fragmentation for users, and I am quoting from the presentation materials. For example, in the area where there are a large number of private cars or a small number of private cars in terms of walking ratio, will we increase the number of bicycles, increase the proportion of self-driving cars, or make it a compact city so that people can maintain their lives even if the total amount of travel is reduced? In the earlier presentation by Professor Ishida, there was an analysis based on various data, but I do not know how the means of travel are selected, including what we will focus on in the future due to the lack of data. If we investigate and count, we may be able to find out, but I think it is important to provide proper feedback on whether it is always the case and what will happen if self-driving cars are added, when we implement such appropriate policies.

At the IPS Conference 2019 in Dubai, Mr. S' hail announced that, in addition to integrating services for users, transportation and mobility services will be integrated within the region, and not only data analysis but also operations, such as how car-sharing will be used, rental cars, and if ride-sharing is included, the utilization rate, will be integrated, and after that, service operations will be connected. It is easy to understand the tip of the iceberg, but when we say MaaS, MaaS apps are of course very important, but operational collaboration is also very valuable. There are various ways to call it MaaS, but I believe that was announced.

Among them, I would like to introduce some examples in the sense of cooperation. In the Kansai region, seven railway companies in the Kansai region are working together to build a railway system. Not only railways, but also secondary transportation, buses, and other forms of mobility will be linked in the future. There are also cases of cooperation between business operators like this. In the Kyushu region, all seven prefectures, including Public-Private Partnership and Kyushu, Yamaguchi, and Okinawa prefectures, transport business operators are cooperating with each other. Public-Private Partnership is often necessary. In fact, meetings are held regularly in the conference bodies, and money is actually collected there to build a digital platform. Not only transportation, but also tourism, of course, there may be more of these. However, the fact that so many entities are cooperating with each other requires a great deal of effort, and I also introduce some examples that are being worked on in Japan.

In that context, from the perspective of MaaS app controllers, there is a question about the extent to which things like urban operating systems will be included in the roadmap this time. I would like to include topics such as autonomous driving technology, infrastructure coordination between physical and digital in each region, and data integration in the service layer and operation layer, which will definitely be related, so I would like to include them in the discussion.

In order to realize this, the story of one region is important, and the story of one region where data, autonomous driving, and ride-sharing have all become possible as a full set within one region is, I think, deeply important, but in particular, I think it will be a story of the entire country of digital surveys, so I tentatively describe what will happen if we try to do it for the whole of Japan.

When a smart city OS or MaaS is developed overseas, I think it will be very interesting, but if it can be brought to Japan immediately, I would like to show two issues in this figure.

One is the characteristic of the transportation industry. Is it a case where the government takes the lead in the public interest and entrusts it to the private sector? Or is it a case where the government grants permission but basically entrusts the transportation industry to the private sector? Which is better? I think it is wonderful that the private sector makes efforts in the transportation industry, but the format is a little different from overseas, and there are a few more.

In some areas, there is only one bus company due to competition policy in each area, but multiple companies have supported the structure of the area through competition. In the case of railways, the number of railway and bus companies in such an area is a little different. When it comes to connecting digitally, it may be possible to do it in the public interest, but when it is done in the private sector, it is a matter of how to restrict it. I think that Professor Koshizuka is also working on connecting from the perspective of separate, heterogeneous, and multiple systems, so I would like to hear your comments later, but there is a matter of this difficulty, technology and scheme. In the area, who manages the entire transportation system? This is written without any permission as a MaaS operator, so even if it is not that word, in each area, railways and buses, such as ride-sharing, how to separate the existing mobility and new mobility is considered by the administrative organization.

I think so, but if a new private sector joins the market, should all of them close their businesses? Who and how will coordinate stakeholders? In the case of the government, it is necessary to take a cooperative and public interest perspective. In the case of the private sector, if there is no money to some extent, it is impossible to operate as a business. I think that whether or not subsidies will be added is one of the measures, but how to balance business profit and public interest is also very important when considering mobility regardless of MaaS. I think that there is also a way to separate the city OS.

That's basically what I'm talking about, but it's about systems. Earlier, there was a question about what kind of system you think would be good. Mobility and transportation, such as ride-sharing and demand, and even railways and buses, from the perspective of users, as well as GTFS and data on how they operate, are still not well developed. No matter how many times they run, they don't know what time they will come, they don't know it, and even if you look it up, you don't know it. If it's a good service, it's easier for users to use it in a way that everyone knows it, and of course, cash payment or free of charge may be fine, but payment and reservation should be centralized.

Also, in terms of how much data was used in the region, whether it was obtained from a railway ticket gate, from an IC card, from a smartphone base station, or from a taxi in the first place, I think it is quite a lot of work because the data is different here and there and the business operators are different, and we would like to solve this somehow.

In that context, there was a discussion earlier about collaborative domains and co-creation domains, but my personal opinion is that such a setting could be possible. For example, from the perspective of an industry, in terms of how to attract investment, Commissioner Muramatsu said that it is difficult for startups and the private sector to make a dent in areas where only subsidies are provided unless there is a certain level of business potential. For example, there are many common elements, and honestly, no matter who does it, it does not change much, it is difficult to make a difference, and it is important as infrastructure. For example, timetable data is timetable data no matter who creates it, so it is infrastructure-like to maintain it, and if you have it, you can search routes, and you prepare signage and tell what time automatic driving will run, for example. As for that layer, everyone works together in a cooperative manner, and it is not something that everyone is separated by the business because they fight first. This is a collaborative domain, and the government should do it all at once, or some business operator should do it all at once. I think sharing is fine, but such a collaborative domain. In the MaaS domain, it would be information provision. I think there is probably autonomous driving and various ride-sharing platforms.

On the other hand, if there is diversity, high business potential, or innovation is needed, I think it is necessary to invest in those areas that need to be improved sequentially, rather than just making it once and finishing it. So, not only will we subsidize operating costs, but if we make profits to some extent and invest in them, we will make money.

In that case, start-ups can raise equity, and banks can hold and lend money to them. I think it would be good to leave that part as a cooperative area and make the part that requires Japan's vitality in the private sector and efforts in the private sector as a competitive area. I think it is easy to say, but I hope that it can be organized in the mobility roadmap from this perspective.

This is a further translation, as I mentioned earlier, and looking at it from a different perspective, as Mr. Koda mentioned, the private sector and the administration, B is business in private sector, G is the government, including the local government, the prefectural and city government, and C is the consumer and customer. In this diagram, B, the so-called transportation companies, are working together to implement MaaS, and G, the local transport companies, are working together to do something for the local transportation industry, and I think there is a coalition of B.

Under B, other industries and other business operators are included in transportation. There are also many private transportation operators whose real estate profits are higher than transportation business revenues. Of course not. Some have profitable routes in transportation, and others have profitable business models in location, real estate, and interaction, but I think that the so-called conglomerate business form is a characteristic of railways and major buses in Japan's private transportation business. In the structure, on the left, G's people have public interest value. If they don't do it because there are few people or it is not profitable, they collect taxes, and they say that they have to develop the area in a balanced manner. Mobility is in this. If so, rather than having many or few people, we have to guarantee public interest value that people can live properly in various places.

On the other hand, when it comes to the private sector, business profits are necessary. It is similar to public interest value and business profits, but there are times when they are 180 degrees apart. After all, it is not okay to divide the discussion between rural and urban areas, but it is possible to thoroughly discuss it. The scheme of compensation for buses covers business profits for public interest value, and I think Mr. Saji's story is close to that, but is it just that scheme, or is it just that mobility is the same target, so how to solve this point of view is challenging but necessary.

Among them is the utilization of data for mutual coordination and optimization. Based on this data, the administration will contribute money to these areas, and the private sector will also work on these things because they can be done in the collaborative domain. I think it would be good if the industrial structure can also be changed.

In summary, I would like to make it simple, but in order to address regional transport issues and create industries in Japan, I believe that it is still necessary to organize and define the concept of mobility transport, which we call MaaS, and to incorporate it into actions.

At the same time, when it comes to transportation, it doesn't quite match the actual situation. There are times when talking about business revenue doesn't match, so I think we need a bird's eye view of the industry as a whole, including the public and private sectors. As Professor Ishida mentioned earlier, I am also focusing on MaaS and mobility services, so talking about roads and bustle is of course necessary, and I think that is necessary.

Third, in that sense, what we are going to do and what we are thinking about, especially in the current situation where autonomous driving and regional transportation issues are combined, we still have to think about various things. Even though it has been implemented by the study group, we still have to evolve it. Is it necessary to prepare data? At this stage, I think that the formulation of a roadmap has a really big impact.

Fourth. There are discussions on private-private partnerships and public-private co-creation, but there are also discussions on financial resources and budget authority, and there is a gap between the two sides. There is also a question of what to do in the prefecture that was next to it. If there are too many private-sector partnerships, there is also a question of whether it is a public-sector deal. I think there are still discussions on ride-sharing, so I think it will be necessary to deregulate, make rules, and build consensus among the entire industry.

Lastly, although it is quite complicated, I believe the points you mentioned are being discussed here. Investments should be expanded in a cooperative manner. Currently, the government is also supporting start-ups, including policy measures to expand businesses with growth potential, and the Architecture or structure. It would be good if we could discuss not only the system but also the structure of businesses. That's all from me.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, Yes, thank you very much. If you have any questions, comments or ideas on Mr. Hidaka's presentation, please let me know. What do you think? Yes, Mr. Muramatsu, please.

Member MURAMATSU: Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Hidaka . I have a lot of sympathy with you, but I think we can say that the beneficiaries will bear the cost. It doesn't mean that only the people who drive the car will bear the cost. As Mr. Saji announced earlier, if "the economic effect of the whole city has been realized," I think the beneficiaries will be the municipalities, etc. In addition, if the sales of supermarkets have improved and the number of visitors to restaurants has increased due to the operation of self-driving cars, I think the beneficiaries will be those restaurants. Looking at the birds-eye view you are projecting, I thought that by visualizing stakeholders more specifically and increasing them, and involving the whole including the visualized stakeholders, the business as a whole will be established and a positive cycle will run. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, Yes, thank you very much. Yes, Kawabata-san, please.

Kawabata: : I was glad that you organized the flow of people's lives and funds, centered on mobility and including the flow of money in society as a whole, which was very easy to understand.

In fact, I think we need to make profits in a multi-layered structure. For example, you often talk about Finland's Whim and Estonia's MaaS in the case of MaaS, but when I actually went there, if Whim was included, people who chose unlimited rides ended up taking taxis and moving individually.

It is very convenient, so some people say that we end up emitting a lot of CO2 when we use personal transportation. In Estonia, the government imposes a city tax, so that all people in the city can get on the bus with a certificate of residence or a so-called Japanese My Number Card, but in the end, those who have money have to shift to their own cars.

In that case, it is very important for the government and public sector to use tax revenues to secure a certain level of infrastructure. However, if we want to secure the infrastructure on its own, people with money will be driven by capital due to the convenience of doing so. Therefore, I think it would be better to create a double money structure for people who are driven by capital and those who need to be secured as public transportation.

For example, I think that IKEA is a furniture company, but it acts like a real estate company. It buys a place like a wilderness, and people come to IKEA. In this way, circulation is created, and IKEA secures the transportation to IKEA by itself.

As a result, newly married couples tend to buy furniture in the area, and families with more children are expected to come, so on the assumption that there will be a generation that is active in consumption to some extent, we have a structure where we place tenants on IKEA land and even a furniture store.

In that case, in addition to creating a structure with a public nature, it is better to put such a structure with a business nature on top of it, and entrepreneurs are better at giving birth to human circulation, so it is a balance of those things. Rather than one side's responsibility, if it is possible to create a structure that secures the public nature or, for example, that the capital will come in larger than the public works in this area, it is possible to attract more and more businesses by putting the public part as a support.

In this region, it is quite difficult to establish a public nature at present. If we want to create something for the future, we should first increase the amount of government money, and then gradually reduce it, for example. At this timing, we should inject capital, or draw up a plan to attract capital, and then reduce it from all sources. This kind of plan would be better, I think, and I have seen many cases overseas.

In particular, when AEON enters the market and AEON disappears, even if we rely only on capital, we suddenly become lonely. But in that case, why does AEON withdraw? Before we criticize AEON's withdrawal, even if the land around AEON prospers, for example, it is actually real estate, and even if AEON secures its MaaS and so on, if it becomes less profitable, it will naturally disappear, and suddenly there will be no players who were earning circulation. After listening to the story today, I thought it would be good if we could combine the things that are driven by capital and the things that must be supported by the public a little more skillfully.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, Thank you very much. Professor Koshizuka is raising his hand, and I would like to ask you to speak next. There are some members who participated today and have not yet spoken, so I would like to ask you to speak. Professor Koshizuka, please.

Koshizuka Member: I'm sorry, thank you very much. There are a lot of things that I sympathize with from what I've heard. At the beginning, Mr. Murakami said that it was difficult to make a payment on a stand-alone basis, especially in rural areas. I think that was the beginning of this meeting in the first place, and that it would be difficult to make a payment on a stand-alone basis. There are two stories. One is whether we will stop being in the competitive area and make it a cooperative area. The other is that if we don't go on a stand-alone basis, we will not go on a stand-alone basis but combine them. We will collaborate with other businesses. In short, we will collaborate with profitable businesses and make it work as a mobility.

I would like to ask you about the situation in which MaaS has been implemented with these two approaches, and the situation in which both approaches are being implemented in the field. In that case, as in the case of the data I gave earlier, such business integration seems to be a general discussion, but in terms of specific discussions, what should be done? As expected, this kind of business integration has been implemented in the field, and it is said that such integrated MaaS is common in the world, but originally this is not acceptable. In fact, when we integrate businesses or combine services, I think there is a sense in the field that some things can be done in the field and some things cannot be done in the field, but I would like to ask you to explain that there is a sense in the field.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . Now, Mr. Koda, please.

Member Koda: Yes, just one word. It would be very difficult to make the scale of the business bigger. For example, children's cafeterias have spread all over Japan. It would be more like a nonprofit corporation. The ride sharing mentioned earlier is one thing, but it is a sharing idea. By incorporating such ideas, I thought that there would be a very large number of ideas that would not suddenly try to solve the problems from one to 100 one day, but would be done on a private-sector basis from where it is possible.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, , if there is a response, I would like to ask you.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set, just in one place in 's comments and Commissioner Koda's comments. To be honest, we have been working hard to create a data base and visualize it, and we are struggling with the actions from there. Currently, we are working in various places such as Hiroshima, Kyushu, and Shiobara, and I think we should work hard to create the digital part of the data, but it is quite difficult to summarize what we will choose after that.

While the number of users is decreasing, what should be left and what should be added? Furthermore, there are new forms of mobility. Among them, there is a discussion on what to do with one new form of mobility, and what is the current state of the existing private transportation infrastructure, and what is the best way forward?

In other words, for example, in the bus business, there are probably two types of drivers, including those who drive trucks, and since they can't get fares, they can't raise their salaries, so it's hard to physically secure bus drivers.

For example, in the case of ride-sharing, I think relatively no one is opposed to it. On the other hand, in the case of ride-sharing, I would like to make a profit and pay bus drivers more, or else I would have to pay them more, including taxi drivers, and suddenly ride-sharing will be introduced and the number of users will decrease. I think that the idea of cooperation is good for ride-sharing, but the private sector that supported the region, where transportation was bundled, can be done door-to-door, but its business will collapse. MaaS is a concept that includes all of these things, and I think it is quite complicated. But if we can create one such business evaluation, I think that the new mobility you mentioned earlier will be necessary to cover the travel by private cars in some regions.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, presentation. I think the reasons are simple, but if we don't think one by one in detail, the talks will never be compatible. Under such circumstances, I think it is a very difficult issue how to make a roadmap with a sense of speed. I would like to discuss a little more about that.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set, just in one place in Well, as Professor Ishida said, in the MaaS industry, MaaS Alliance, in the vision of the organization of the new Executive Director, the knowledge loop, which is to make a loop somewhere, is raised. This is the case with MaaS, and when new mobility including transportation enters, what kind of consensus should be formed? What kind of evaluation should be given to it as a whole? In turning the loop, I don't know which one is good, but at least it will be easier to make judgments based on various correct information, and it will be easier to reach the correct answer.

In terms of the knowledge loop in Japan and overseas, what should be done to oblige local governments and, for G and B, the national government to do the same? It is impossible to entrust this to a strategic consultant, so sharing such know-how, whether local governments and local transportation companies have such methods, and in line with this, I think it will be easier to organize in Excel, and I think it will be possible to do it digitally.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . I was very encouraged that what you just said is exactly what Mr. Saji is putting into practice. Mr. Suda, I can raise my hand. Please make a statement.

Suda: Thank you, Mr. Hidaka. I would also like to make good use of MaaS, but from that perspective, safety is the most important aspect of mobility. MaaS will make a significant contribution to reducing CO2 emissions, as I mentioned earlier. I thought that such a mechanism could be put into practice in various places if it is further developed. In that sense, I thought that incorporating the idea of being able to choose routes with low CO2 emissions would be a story that would be socially accepted. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . Mr. Hatano, at the Self-Driving Business Study Group a while ago, you said that both the self-driving bubble and the MaaS bubble had burst, and I was impressed. I am using a slightly different expression, but it is not swollen enough to pop. I think it is accurate to say that it is deflating or deflating, and behind that, if it does not pop, it will be able to inflate again. In response to this, I believe that one of the central discussions at today's Study Group will be where we should work hard on self-driving and MaaS.

I'm sorry to be abrupt, but if you have any comments on that or on Hidaka-san's discussion on MaaS, I would love to hear your comments, so I put your name here.

Mr. Hatano: Thank you for your nomination, Mr. . I am participating in this meeting as a member of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association. In particular, the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association is currently cooperating on both the technical and business sides. I understand that this meeting is to discuss how the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association, as an industry and industry, is discussing on the technical side.

In that sense, we are thinking about implementing unmanned mobile services in society in the near future from a technological point of view. There are limits to technology. In particular, if we try to realize autonomous self-help systems without relying on humans, the rules for doing so, or, as Professor Suda mentioned earlier, making rules for safe provision, would have taken six or seven years, since the Public-Private Sector ITS Concept and Roadmap was established in 2014.

However, when we consider the areas, areas, and scenes where we want to provide mobile services, including regional and public transportation, which we are discussing today, I think there is a lack of autonomous solutions. I think we are sharing qualitatively. If that is the case, there is a high possibility that the lack of autonomy will be exceeded. Therefore, how to apply the idea of mutual assistance and public assistance and how to satisfy them, in other words, whether we can stay safe and secure in the area where we want to provide services. Such a matter is rule-making for mutual assistance and public assistance, and I understand that there is still a lot of discussion going forward, although it is rough to say.

In other words, if we consider that the environment of public transportation is shared not only by autonomous driving but also by all traffic participants, it would be a little difficult if we are forced to make unreasonable demands only on autonomous driving. Therefore, the JAMA is considering how to realize it as a whole, and we would like to share and discuss it.

As I am not in a position to discuss the business axis, I would like to refrain from commenting on it, but I think it is a very important issue to consider mobility in combination with society, which Professor Ishida mentioned, and we would like to be involved in it. However, if I were to ask you one thing from the standpoint of the industry that has provided automobiles, I would say that mobility is not simply spatial.

If we think of mobility as a combination of space and time, for example, 60 vehicles pass through a city to carry 60 people, but 60 vehicles do not stay here all the time. In that sense, I believe that the way of using space has a wider range and can be considered in various ways, so I would like to participate in discussions on such aspects, including technical ones, and I would like to ask for your cooperation. That's all from me today.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . My question to Mr. Hidaka is, I think MaaS in the Kyushu and Kansai regions is a very interesting and advantageous initiative, and I think it is very important to expand the base of business operators. However, when it comes to digital, apps, and data platforms, I think there are quite a lot of people who say yes. If there are any specific initiatives being taken in the Kyushu and Kansai regions to expand the base of business operators, please tell us.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set, just in one place in , while forming a consortium, although it is not just a digital platform, since there is basically one digital platform, it is better to be connected than not to make several separately in the same area and connect them, and since all participants share it, they will be able to make a good product at a low price. I think it is quite simple or simple thinking.

I think that Mr. Digital Agency is working on it, but it is quite difficult for a small company that is currently in the red to create a digital platform on its own. There may be cases where Mr. private sector comes to sell it, but he can't afford it.

In that sense, it would be better to connect digital platforms, data collaboration, and apps together in areas that are connected to a certain extent, or that are connected to other lines. Considering the influence of transportation and people, the more connected the network is, the further away you can go. This is a network effect, a natural effect for transportation. First of all, I think we can do it for that purpose. It is not necessarily good if it is too wide, but it can be used when there are many main players. Also, I think it would be good if the knowledge loop mentioned earlier can solve problems in small areas by small areas and talk about a large area in a wide area.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, and Kansai regions are doing a good job of involving themselves in various areas with that kind of awareness? I don't think I am the person concerned.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set, just in one place in As far as I know, we have formed an organization, and railway companies are creating a platform, and in the form of circulation, we are working together with buses and other business operators. One is the World Expo in 2025, and as a legacy of that, it was in the news that business operators were working together.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . Lastly, please tell us if you have any requests or opinions on how to proceed as a whole. What do you think? Please go ahead.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set, just in one place in . There are many things to do in autonomous driving, and MaaS is full of MaaS. I believe there is a way to gather know-how while doing it in various regions.

First of all, in terms of mobility services, if we can develop timetable data properly, including individual companies, including demand transportation, community buses, and maybe roads, not all of them are in one place, but we can work on all of them to the extent that they will be like this in the future, is that a successful example? I think it would be good for it to evolve greatly in the future, but I think the country needs such co-creation that we have to do widely in the future, but it doesn't matter if it is an ideal city or a city somewhere, if all of them are prepared, the future mobility service will be like this until this fiscal year. I think it would be good to think about it in some specific way to create milestones.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you, . I think this is an important point. In closing, I would like to share a few of my thoughts. I believe that I fully understand your opinions, but I also think that I need to properly show how I think about values.

On top of that, it is often said that how to create a vision is important. How to create a vision, as Mr. Takashi said today, it is important to create a vision at some point. Not only that, but it is important to create a vision as an example. What and how will you advance toward that?

I wasn't really aware of the time frame, but I thought that it would take a considerable amount of time, but even if I said so, I wouldn't be able to wait, or I would be able to do it right away. I thought I had to be careful about that.

Another thing is how far we should think about the scope. I think it was about 10 years ago when I was reminded of the cross-sector effect. Mr. Mori, the former mayor of Toyama City, said that by improving transportation, elderly people are going out and medical expenses are definitely decreasing. Or, Toyama City is quite large, so if you come to the center of Toyama City from far away, you can get a big discount on public transportation expenses.

As a result, the central part of the city prospered, land prices did not fall due to city planning, and property taxes rose due to city planning, which was good for tax revenues. This was also demonstrated, but for example, as a matter of national construction, the budget for medical expenses seemed to be good, and it was pretty much the same as the cross sector. I think it is improving. But just because of that, instead of giving up, it is evidence to move the world in such a way. I thought that we had to do it by overlapping things like outcome indicators with time frames and ranges.

That being the case, I believe that you pointed out today that it is important to consider who, where, and how to take the approach and how to scale it, which were discussed in various places today.

I will do it three more times in a short period of time, and I would appreciate it if you could continue various discussions. Today, I did not have much difficulty in controlling the time, so I would appreciate it if you could discuss it actively so that it would be a little more difficult, so I would appreciate it if you could do it next time.