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Study group on the ideal way of "Mobility Roadmap" (1st)

Overview

  • Date and time: Wednesday, May 31, 2023, from 10:00 to 12:30
  • Location: Kioi Conference Seminar Room A on the 4th floor of Tokyo Garden Terrace Kioi-cho (online)
  • Agenda:
    1. Opening
    2. How to proceed with this study group
    3. Presentation, Discussion
      • "Mobility Roadmap" and SIP "Smart mobility Platform" (Chairman, Ishida)
      • "public transportation Fiscal Reform to be Realized by the Public and Private Sectors in the 2020s by Making the Shared Bus Sustainable public transportation" (Mr. Tomoki Saji, President and CEO, BOLDLY Co., Ltd.)
      • "implementation between the public and private sectors and business operators from the viewpoint of social data connections of MaaS and its significance" (Hidaka Member)
    4. Adjournment

Conference Video

The conference is available on YouTube (Digital Agency official channel).

Materials

Minutes

Mr. Suzuki: I would like to give an explanation from the , so I would like to start.

I'm Suzuki from the mobility Group of the Digital Agency National Service Group. Nice to meet you.

We would like to hold the first workshop on the ideal way of "Mobility Roadmap". This workshop is live streamed. In addition, we would like you to know that a video recording will be released on the Digital Agency website after the workshop.

First of all, Mr. Murakami, Director-General of For the public Group, Digital Agency, would like to say a few words. Thank you.

Mr. Murakami: Mr. : We have received the cooperation of some people so far, and we have come to Public-Private ITS Concept and Roadmap. The systems and technology development to make Eiheiji-cho run, including Level 4, are already in sight. In fact, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism has invested in various ways, and it is Level 4. It is time for to join us. But what I would like to focus on this time is the systems and technology development to continue the project.

To put it simply, it would cost, for example, 5,000 to 60 million yen to purchase one self-driving car, and the basic price of the operation service would be 40,000 to 50 million yen per year. Under these circumstances, there is no way that local government can be owned by a local public transportation.

In that sense, it has run as a technology, but it may be difficult to continue as a business. We are now planning to run together with the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifelines, but even if we realize 100 locations there in 2027, it will not be worth it if there are only three remaining three years later. Let's sort out the necessary policy agenda.

Second, the roles of the roadmap, which will be considered in the future, are to coordinate the studies and efforts of each ministry. I do not intend to duplicate the studies of each ministry. Rather, I would like to synchronize the timing of various studies and technical development by each ministry, synchronize horizontally, ask for studies in some cases, and consider by ourselves if there is anything that is not enough. However, as was the case in Public-Private ITS Concept and Roadmap, at that time, the IT Office of the Cabinet Secretariat and now in Digital Agency, I believe that this is the reason for the cooperation of each ministry and the implementation of the roadmap.

Having said that, in order to examine and launch the road map itself in the future, the first task of the study group is to collect the points of discussion by receiving opinions from various people about four times.

Based on that, we are thinking of formally launching a review meeting in synchronization with the review frame of the Digital Zenso, but as a hypothesis, for example, we have put forward three viewpoints.

This time, self-help, mutual assistance, and public assistance were allocated in three vertical directions. In particular, in the case of ITS, the focus was basically on the problem of vehicles, but when considering the local mobility, it is necessary to consider service robots and drones separately, or to consider that each of them will be operated by a different business operator. In the sense that it is difficult to imagine a future in which the business will continue, it is necessary to consider mobility services as mobility services. Therefore, the name of the hypothetical case is expanded to 3 × 3, Mobility Roadmap.

For example, in terms of self-help, to be honest, I think it is realistically difficult to aim for a single black as a business only with mobility services.

However, for example, as I am scheduled to explain to Mr. Mitoyo City for the fourth time, it has been shown in figures that the increase in the home-based mortality rate due to encouraging the entry and exit of the elderly and the associated reduction in medical care expenses are more than the increase in the deficit when the community bus, which is suspended on Sundays, is operated. Unless the existence or non-existence of mobility services is decided from a cross-sectional perspective including social impact, it is possible to make a mistake in public social choice.

This is what we have to think about even in a declining population. Although we have made a rough summary of non-consolidated deficit and social impact, even in the self-help phase, it will be necessary to make a design of the project including its social impact.

As for the second point, I have already given a lecture to the professionals, and I have just written a little today, but I would like to know how much the environmental side and the vehicle side can do, such as cooperative control between vehicles.

Technically, there are various options, and I think the feasibility of each option is already in the age of Public-Private ITS Concept and Roadmap. On the other hand, if you want to make this into a project, no matter which combination of options you take, no one will invest unless scalability comes out to a certain extent.

If you do not decide to go with this, for example, the digital twin, if you have money, you will demonstrate it, but no one will do it. Therefore, it is time to decide on the de facto format for the cooperation layer in various ways.

For example, in public help, the problem of social responsibilities is taken up on a tentative basis, but if we go to the extreme, the pure road under the Road Traffic Act and the track under the Track Act are completely different in the way of handling responsibility, for example, who is responsible for running over me when I lie on the track.

I think it will be difficult because automated vehicles and analog systems will coexist, but in reality, as Mr. Ishida will tell you, the environmental side will make certain arrangements to some extent, such as whether to run through narrow streets or to run on a dedicated road. Based on this premise, how will the social responsibilities be distributed? For those who want to do it themselves even in places with no environments, then please do it according to the conventional rules. I have a feeling that if the environmental side and the distribution of the design are not discussed based on the premise of a combination, the social responsibilities will probably not be answered even if the social responsibilities is said to change like this because of automated vehicles.

Our basic view is that if we do not solve the problems of multiple different sectors at the same time, even if we can run it as a technology, it will be too risky as a business and there will be no servicer.

I believe that we must incorporate the considerations and elements of various ministries and agencies in each case, but first of all, in this study group, I would like to hear various opinions by picking up points that fall below the order and relationship of the discussions.

In that sense, the discussions themselves are open to the public, and each ministry is participating as an observer, so I would like you to express your candid opinions.

That's all from me.

Mr. Suzuki: I would like to give an explanation from the . Then, let's get down to it. I would like to ask Mr. Ishida of the University of Tsukuba to chair the proceedings from here on. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, . I'm Ishida from Tsukuba University.

Thank you very much for your cooperation in the "Study Group on the Shape of the Digital Transportation Society" last year. I think that it was a good product in its own way, but when I heard about it here and there, I myself had considerable experience of receiving criticism that it was fluffy and I did not understand it well. Under such circumstances, as Director General Murakami said, Minister Kono made a statement in Conference on the Realization of the Digital Garden City Nation Vision that he would rename Public-Private ITS Concept and Roadmap as Mobility Roadmap and restart it, and I think he really expressed his determination. This time, I would like to continue to advance with your cooperation.

The Government as a whole will make a Cabinet decision on the Comprehensive National Development Plan for Digital Lifelines around the end of this fiscal year, and automated driving mobility will play an extremely important part in that.

In SIP, the construction of the third phase of the Smart mobility Platform will also begin. I have been appointed as the program director for it, and the world is certainly moving in that direction, so I will do my best with your support. Thank you very much.

First of all, I would like to proceed according to the agenda. First of all, please explain from the Secretariat how to proceed with the Study Group on Agenda 2.

Mr. Suzuki: I would like to give an explanation from the Secretariat. First of all, I would like to briefly explain the background in Material 4.

First, from page 2, I would like to reflect on Public-Private ITS Concept and Roadmap so far. Since 2014, we have been updating the roadmap every year, and it has continued until 2021. Then, in 2022, we created the "Future of Transportation Society Using Digital 2022." The results of our efforts are shown on the right.

This is a review of last year. As an awareness of the issue, we are considering comprehensively examining the demand-side implementation toward social Issue and capturing the Issue of the entire social system around parts other than vehicles.

Last year's workshop was held about four times last spring, and Mr. Ishida summarized it.

In terms of how to proceed going forward, we must carefully watch the demand-side, and on the supply-side, in addition to automated driving, we have newly expanded the scope to cooperative areas in the mobility field, such as road space, mobility services, MaaS, drones, and flying cars.

In the "Eleven Perspectives on Service design," we have been given a broad direction, such as deciding where to aim in each area, thinking about where to aim from the perspective of life, and not thinking about a business model for mobility alone.

In terms of the future direction of our efforts, as Dr. Ishida mentioned earlier, Minister for Digital Transformation Kono explained at the Conference on the Realization of the Digital Garden City Nation Vision meeting on March 31, and it was not just a demonstration, but also showed that Mobility Roadmap will be restarted so that it will lead to social implementation.

This is an introduction to the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifeline. As the basic concept, it is "from point to line and plane" and "from demonstration to implementation", and the number of automated driving vehicles services is also shown.

In accordance with the schedule of the Comprehensive National Development Plan for Digital Lifelines, we aim to complete it by the end of fiscal 2023, and Mobility Roadmap would like to work in line with this.

Next, as a reference case, I would like to introduce some materials that could be used as a reference for discussion in terms of self-help, mutual assistance, and public assistance, which are the contents of what Murakami explained at the beginning.

As a self-help, we attach reference materials on business models and individual systems.

As you mentioned in your report on Sakaimachi in Ibaraki prefecture, it shows that it is difficult to build a sustainable business model with a business model of only fares.

This is an initiative of Sakaimachi, Ibaraki. By single signing on, users can receive various services such as drones in addition to automated driving without being aware of the mode. It is an introduction that this advanced thing is being done using Issue money from Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation.

This is an example of Asahimachi in Toyama Prefecture, where we are creating a mobility service that creates demand as a whole by creating demand for people to move, such as health classes and nature experience classes, and incorporating a point system, while doing advanced things such as ride-sharing services by private cars.

In the latter half of this study group, I would like to hear about how KPI is set from the perspective of social impact, not just money revenue, in the case of Mitoyo City, Kagawa.

It is about cooperation, cooperative control and common architecture.

We are conducting an overall study of the architecture of autonomous mobile robots, including ways of mutual assistance.

As a four dimensional space-time ID, we are considering a universal ID that includes a three dimensional space and time axis.

Amidst this, demonstration experiments is also being considered in Digital Agency for the coordinated operation of the autonomous mobility.

It is about mutual assistance, and it is a reference material on hard infrastructure and systems.

In terms of how to think about roads centered on automobiles, overseas examples include cases of coexistence of pedestrians and vehicles, cases of prioritizing pedestrians, and cases of using bicycles, which were shown in last year's "Future of Transportation Society Using Digital Technology 2022."

This is based on the perspective of what kind of problems occurred during the demonstration experiments and actual operation of the automated driving. There have been examples of problems occurring at the time of switching from contact or automatic operation to manual operation.

It is an example of a rule in the train track that if there is a dedicated lane for Japanese trams, basically there is a rule that vehicles on the track have priority.

In the case of the State of Michigan in the United States, a dedicated lane for automated driving vehicles is being developed between Detroit and Ann Arbor, and infrastructure development is being advanced to utilize automated driving vehicles.

I'm sorry to rush you, but that's all about the case.

Going back to Material 3, on page 2, (3), I would like to explain how we will proceed with this study. As described in (1), through the study by this study group, I would like to ask you to present various issues that need to be sorted out in the future, and I would like to ask this study group to sort out the matters that should be further examined in the future and the matters that should be made into a roadmap.

In (ii), under the leadership of Council for the Promotion of a Digital Society, we will create a formal forum to consider the formulation of a draft roadmap, and in that forum, we will include various points that were organized this time.

In (iii), we are considering reflecting these points in the consideration of the digital lifeline. In (iv), we would like to finally compile the private sector 2024 as an overall roadmap for the mobility field by the end of the fiscal year, while cooperating on future considerations, considerations at the Conference on the Realization of Nationwide Comprehensive Development of Digital Lifeline, considerations at the SIP, and various other considerations by the government and Mobility Roadmap.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

Today, three people including me will make a presentation, and we will discuss it based on that. It is not to draw a conclusion in particular, but to make a logical arrangement of the points to be raised here and there. I think the discussion will be heated up, so it is scheduled to be until 12:30 today, but there is a possibility that it will be extended, so I am sorry but I would like you to understand that. If you are going to participate, you can post your questions and opinions on Teams chat at any time.

First of all, I would like to report.

The meaning of thinking about mobility is that mobility is important for life and death, mobility is also important for the purpose of life, and the environments surrounding it have changed greatly. At the same time that various technological development are advancing, the aging population and the exhaustion of local communities are advancing, and I think it is necessary to firmly grasp that it is really a battle with time.

Under such circumstances, we will restart Mobility Roadmap based on our expectations. The original Public-Private ITS Concept and Roadmap, which will change its name, is decided at the ministerial level every year, and its position is not something we can sense, but we will work hard to achieve the content appropriate for it. The first and second terms of automated driving, which achieved significant results in the SIP, have held joint promotion meetings with Public-Private ITS Concept and Roadmap, and it is true that they have been working together, so we would like to learn from what we can learn.

Under such circumstances, I would like to discuss the construction of a smart mobility platform today as part of our promotion. From the perspective of people, goods, and services, we are thinking about how to public transportation as a platform, including not only implementation means but also private cars and infrastructure.

Since it is digital, data science is necessary, so Professor Koshizuka of the University of Tokyo, Professor Nakamura who is engaged in transportation services, particularly in public transportation, Mr. Hiyama of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association for the relationship with automobiles, and Mr. Murase of Willer Transport for the importance of startups, are helping us. As the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, and the National Police Agency, as well as Digital Agency, have a very important relationship between mobility and health, we would like the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare to participate.

In this context, our approach to Smart mobility, as we have done a lot of Smart mobility so far, is to consider both fast and big cars, mainly in automated driving. However, as the population ages, the happiness of people is important, so we are thinking mainly about how to live daily in the neighborhood, such as people-centered and low-speed.

In the report "Redesign of public transportation and area Transportation" compiled by Professor Nakamura, the emphasis has been on the trunk branch, but what is actually creating value is photosynthesizing with the leaf. Therefore, the approach is to consider the leaf as well. This is supported by the mobility Dataspace.

Currently, there are many data platforms, but the term "data space" seems to be the largest, and we are working hard to achieve that.

In order to realize this, we have selected three sub-themes and 19 technical Issue, and I think that some of them are naturally related.

The blue area on the left of page 7 shows the current situation, the system, and the feelings of people. Based on this outlook, we should consider where our weaknesses are and which direction we should attack as a strategy.

In the middle is where the technical development elements are strong, but in the part where we pursue specific technical elements, not only moving things, but also how to think about cities and roads, systems and data, and automated driving, we substitute the term "social systemization of automated driving."

On the right side is how we think about exit strategies for such technological elements. As we discussed a lot last year, we are thinking about how to form communities such as data communities, mobility communities, and business communities, which are associated with trust and practical benefits, and how to do so, including area communities, and how to design a market that defines a broad framework.

My personal opinion is very big, but what I would like to work on is to realize a safe, comfortable, and enjoyable community road, or to start a part of it, a busy road in the center. In general, various people are working hard, but I think that the major improvement of small roads is considerably delayed.

The redesign of public transportation is also very important, but if you look closely, area has many mobility resources, but they are not always used. There are problems in various places, and I think that what should be considered in order to make the most of them is also an important theme. The movement of people is important, but what is no less important than that is logistics. We are in a really critical situation, so I would like to challenge that.

In order to realize this, we use the method of implementation by repeating the dataspace and social experiments as the foundation. However, although we conduct experiments, it is difficult to reach implementation. In many cases, we are exhausted by the time we reach the experiments, and it is good if the experiments go well.

In order to mitigate such problems, it is important to create a digital sandbox on the digital twin and to form a community.

Today, I would like to emphasize in particular traffic safety and the redesign of daily living spaces. I think it is a tall order, but among the G7 of developed countries, the only country where more than half of the fatal accidents are caused by people walking or riding a bicycle. There is no other country like this. For example, in the United States, the percentage of fatal traffic accidents caused by people walking or riding a bicycle is about 20%.

Another feature worth mentioning is the high percentage of elderly people. Recently, when it comes to traffic accidents involving elderly people, there are many perpetrators, but in fact, there are many elderly people who become victims. It is imagined that such accidents occur on nearby roads, but the data maintenance to support this is not sufficient, and there are situations in which data maintenance should be made.

The problem of security has been solved, and we aim for a comfortable and enjoyable road ahead, but I think it is quite far. As I said earlier, the maximum utilization and redesign of area mobility resources has been lacking in consideration for the end, and we have no time to wait until it is solved, mainly in the trunk branch. I think the exhaustion of area has advanced to that point.

In that context, I would like to focus on the utilization of manufacturing technology and automated driving technology and community building. In addition, although I have not written much about this, the distribution system is also in a really critical situation, so I would like to focus on this. For that purpose, mobility Data Space and community building technology are necessary infrastructure, so I would like to ask you various questions about this.

In the remaining part, I would like to explain the safety of community roads by showing data.

This is the situation of traffic accidents. It is what I said earlier. I would like to emphasize the graph on the upper right on page 15 that although the overall number of vehicle traffic accidents is decreasing, it is particularly noticeable on main roads, and the number of community roads is not decreasing very much. This is also the case that there are many fatal accidents among the elderly.

In fact, what the infrastructure is like. The picture on the right is a road in front of an elementary school. Elementary school students are crossing a pedestrian crossing, but according to the current Road Act, it is a complete roadway. In addition, the regulation speed of this road is 60 kilometers. I will tell you why later. You will think it is a lie.

As for the infrastructure, the top is a photo of Tsukuba and the bottom is an aerial photo of Tsuchiura. Since Tsukuba is a planned city, we can see where the roads are, but we can't see Tsuchiura. It is a feature of Japanese roads that such small roads are stretched like a mesh.

Compared to other countries, the high-class residential areas of Jiyugaoka and Notching Gate in London and the new residential area of defense in Paris are obvious in terms of the shape and size of the roads. If you analyze the aerial photos, the bottom is the residential area, as shown in the photo I showed you earlier. Jiyugaoka has a very small average block area and a small road area ratio, but it has by far the largest road extension density, that is, the total length of roads in one square kilometer. In short, there are many narrow roads.

I believe that the concept of safe community roads in such places cannot be the same as in European towns, and it is very important how to develop Japanese style.

However, European countries are making progress in making road space human. It was used by Ms. Sadik-Kahn, who made road space pedestrian in various places, mainly in Times Square, New York City, when she gave a lecture. Her assertion is that road space is the largest public open space in area. It is much larger than a park, and it is strange to let automobiles occupy it.

In New York, the share of automobiles is 35%, but it is not strange that automobiles use 70% to 80% of road space. In Tokyo, it is 16%. He gave a lecture in Japan on why people in Tokyo do not get angry, and returned home.

The picture above shows this. There are so many cars, and if it is a bus, it is enough. If it is a bicycle, it is enough. In that sense, we must change the means and consider the transportation system. In addition, I think it is our very important responsibility to think about how to think about the fact that the situation is no different between driving alone and Uber and automated driving.

In the United States, pedestrians are the most important means of transportation, followed by bicycles, public transportation, distribution, taxis, ride-sharing, and cars at the bottom. This is the basis for many transportation plans throughout the United States.

However, it is easy to say, and it is actually difficult, but about 20 years ago, a playground started mainly in Germany, and children are playing soccer. This spread quickly throughout Europe, and I have seen it in about 20 places in total, but unfortunately I had never seen children playing.

I think it is difficult, but when I went to France four years ago, I saw children playing soccer in front of an elementary school in Strasbourg, and I thought it was wonderful. The town development of Strasbourg has taken about 30 years, but I think it can be done if you do it patiently for 30 years. I heard from a person who went to France last September that such a scenery has expanded further. I would like to aim for such a thing.

I just showed you a shocking picture. It is about what is happening. I think this picture is the best. It shows how the speed regulation is in Setagaya-ku, how Zone 30 is in it, and what kind of accidents are occurring in each of them. It is a drawing of the data owned by the police and the data owned by the road administrator.

Actually, I couldn't do this. I tried it and it was quite easy. I wonder why they didn't do this. Let me tell you something unique. The road with many red dots on the left end is Kannana, which shows that there are many accidents. The colored road is the road with a speed regulation. The red one is 30 kilometers, and Kannana is 60 kilometers, which is the legal speed. It is not colored. Surprisingly, the road right next to Kannana, which looks like an alley in the picture I showed you earlier, is also white.

In order to make a speed regulation on a road where a speed regulation has not been made, it is necessary for the Public Safety Commission of each prefecture to decide each time, and in order to implement it, it is necessary to put up a speed regulation sign. The police are doing their best, but in order to get there, they do not have the manpower or money, so they are left alone.

It says that this is a period of great change in road traffic, but it is said that this is a once-in-a-century change for automated driving, CASE, and the automobile industry. In fact, restoring road space to human hands is a major challenge to ensure safety and efficiency by separating Roman roads more than 2000 years ago, which has been the history of mankind.

I would like to conclude my presentation by saying that I would like to think together with you about what Mobility Roadmap should do in such a situation.

Thank you for your discussions. We would appreciate it if you could feel free to ask any questions or comments on the website, including the participating committee members. What do you think?

May I speak to Mr. Hidaka?

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set in Ishida. I learned a lot.

What I thought while listening to your talk and what I thought was very significant in this review meeting was that I think automated driving is one of the technologies, and how to use it was an important topic, so I once again felt the difficulty. When we think about what to do with roads, and what to do with automobiles and the automated driving industry, it is better to have a large amount of automated driving vehicles, but if we do so, we will have to drive a lot of snow on narrow roads. There are elements that are at odds with road safety and the fun roads that Mr. Ishida mentioned, so we must comprehensively talk about roads, towns, economies, and industries, all in a comprehensive manner, while understanding technology.

In addition, I thought it would be extremely significant and difficult to talk about it in a slightly economically difficult situation where the population is decreasing or the number of people is decreasing.

When I sometimes studied and read it, I thought again that it is necessary to make a method in which one specialist gets multiple MBAs and does architecture, takes several master's degrees, and gets into such a profession, rather than having one specialist do all of it, and to make a community in a university or a field cooperation work well so that specialists can share knowledge well, and I thought that I had to study not only MaaS but also such various things. I thought again that I had to study not only MaaS but also such various things. smart cities

If there is data, it is possible to objectively see what the difference is from Paris and other countries in terms of the accident rate, roads, automobiles, and speed. Even if you are not an expert, you can lower the number or raise it. I think I learned a lot about that. That's all for my comment.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, . How about others? Please come in, Kawabata-san.

Kawabata Member: I also think that this story is very informative, and I can listen to multifaceted stories, so if it is very informative, I think that it is difficult to achieve results unless we work on it from multiple perspectives.

In 2004, I went to the Play Road that you were talking about for an interview. When I heard about how to obtain the agreement of the residents to make it a Play Road, I heard that if children can write letters, even children living there can vote. At that time, I talked about the fact that it is okay if results do not come out immediately, and he said that he thought it would not spread unless children had their own children use it when they grow up.

First of all, I think that the residents of education can achieve results in a relatively short period of time, about 10 to 20 years. Therefore, unless we create a good city for the young people of today, and then look at what kind of mobility is suitable for this, after all, there is a town development that is easy for those people to raise children and live in when they grow up, I don't think that the development of road infrastructure and the like can be done in the blink of an eye, unlike digital.

When you talk about digital, you always talk about digital at a high speed, but at the same time, we have to work on a physical platform, which is at least five years, and in some cases, 10 years, 15 years, and 20 years, and I think Dr. Ishida is a specialist in this field, but I think we have to work on the assumption that it will take 20 years, or a quarter of a century.

In fact, when I covered about three places, including France and Germany, I thought that in Europe, 100 is divided by 4, so it is a quarter of a century. However, if we consider it in 25 years, road infrastructure, social infrastructure, and social acceptance are also considered to take one generation. Therefore, the non-consolidated deficit and social impact of the three perspectives are extremely important. I thought that it would be a big thing for the Council, especially the government, to look at the total rather than the deficit or surplus of the non-consolidated entity after taking a long-term view of the social impact.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, . Mr. Suda, please.

Mr. Suda: Thank you very much, Mr. Hidaka University of Tokyo. Thank you very much, Mr. Ishida. I have been talking with Mr. Ishida at various places such as meetings of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism since yesterday, but thank you for giving me a very useful talk today.

When I heard your story, I agree with you that Zone 30 must be maintained properly. When I was walking on the road, there were many places where cars had priority over pedestrians, even though there were more pedestrians. I always felt that there was a contradiction.

On the other hand, I am also studying ASV for automobiles by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism. Even if we do not go to automated driving, we are thinking of introducing a mechanism to prevent the speed of so-called safe driving support automobiles from exceeding a certain speed by infrastructure cooperation. I have always thought that if we use digital technology and make good use of so-called vehicle-to-vehicle communication and road-to-vehicle communication, we will be able to achieve absolute speed limits on these narrow streets.

Therefore, I thought that it would be good if this place could be developed into such a story. That is all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, . You seem to be less enthusiastic than last year. Yes, Okamoto-san, please.

Okamoto Member: I am Okamoto from TEPCO Power Grid. Thank you very much. I learned a lot from what you just said, and I also sympathize with you very much because I think you are rebuilding this road space centered on human beings.

I am also a specialist in infrastructure. In a sense, we can say that the roads we have now are very well maintained, and we cannot rebuild them now. Therefore, I think that the question is how to rebuild what we have now in a human-centered manner using systems and technology. This is a very challenging but important initiative, and I am very impressed.

In addition, I would like to say that our electrical network is also very dense. Listening to what you said today, I once again felt that this is true because our network is built along the roads.

We look forward to working with you in the future. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, . Please, Mr. Muramatsu.

Mr. Muramatsu: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Hidaka . We would like to create a bustling road, and as Mr. Murakami said at the beginning, I think it is most important to do business with it.

In the end, it may sound bad, but if each company thinks that it will become a business, investment will be encouraged and the industry will grow. How to attract investment is to lower the entry barrier as an industry, in other words, it is important to develop social infrastructure and data that can be shared in advance.

My specialty is in the field of robots, but I would like to contribute to creating a platform that can be used both outdoors and indoors, including the maintenance of those. Thank you. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

Mr. Murakami: Mr. , I'm sorry to bother you after your presentation, but I just wanted to say a few words.

We are not focusing only on area and public transportation, but in fact, I think they are the most desperate. As the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism has released data, large malls have about 150,000 people, large supermarkets have about 7,000 to 80000 people, sports clubs have a population of about 40000 people, hospitals with multiple subjects have about 10,000 people, and clinics have a population of more than 600 people, but as the population decreases, infrastructure services that support life will be lacking.

However, although such an analysis has not yet been made, according to the form of provision of mobility, buses and taxis are starting to scream even in places with a population of about 6,000 to 70000, and community buses and others are coming in, but they are suffering from a decrease in the number of people while they are in deficit. In the ninth year of regional revitalization, there is probably a pattern in which mobility first disappears and people give up living there. There is a pattern in which electricity is the one that is working hard until the last house, so I have heard a joke that you will become the president of a company by watching a program called Ikan-ya. In this situation, it is good to have a perspective on how to create a mobility service that does not collapse at the beginning. It is good to be able to discuss based on data as much as possible, which Mr. Ishida actively presented, and I think that the discussion will change depending on the scale of the project and the assumption of the location. If you listen to us from such a perspective, it will be possible to talk about the next profitability if there is a subsidy, but it will not continue. So, I will excuse myself for a moment, but I would like you to continue to consider it vigorously. Thank you very much for your time today.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, I would like to add a few words. The safety of children when they go to school is a very big problem, and we are working vigorously in various places. When I talked with mothers in the field, the overwhelming opinion is that we want to build a sidewalk here. However, we cannot build a sidewalk on a narrow road like the one I showed you earlier. This is as Mr. Okamoto said. I think it is about how to use what we have now by using the power of IT, whether to make it safe, and how to change its function without physically changing it.

It is also common in public transportation, and there are various tests in mobility now, but I think it would be a waste if, for example, people could not be loaded into a freight car. In reality, Switzerland is doing such a thing, or if you contract with a company here, ordinary people cannot be loaded. If you contract with this city, people from the neighboring town cannot be loaded, which is wasteful. Based on this, I think the role of digital technology is extremely important, so I would like to focus on such a point of view.

Next, I would like to have a presentation from Saji san who is on standby. Thank you.

Mr. Saji: Yes, thank you very much. I would like to share the screen right away. This is a picture of Sakaimachi, Ibaraki, which is currently being monitored in real time. Local residents are working as automated driving staff, and area residents are using it to go to hospitals and supermarkets on a daily basis. It is not running right now, so I would like to start the presentation first.

I would like to make a presentation on the various issues of automated driving Bus for social implementation. We are not a car dealer, but a remote monitoring platform IT operator. We are creating a system for transportation operators for the era when operators in area control automated driving, and we are disclosing the API and system so that various operators can use it.

It has been used in various countries around the world. For example, automated driving Bus has connected 30 types of buses. Among domestic manufacturers, there are Toyota and venture companies. Their vehicles can be monitored remotely with one system.

However, such a system can make money only after automated driving buses become popular. Therefore, I have been holding demonstrations of automated driving buses nationwide to show examples of the usefulness of automated driving buses.

Then, there is area, which is no longer a demonstration, but wants to put automated driving Bus into practical use by purchasing vehicles by local government and companies and owning vehicles in area. Among us, we have achieved practical use in four area, but from the viewpoint of passengers and citizens of area, it seems that the bus operator who had operated in area operates a mixture of manually operated buses and automated driving buses, so the company called BOLDLY is Kuroko and is not seen by area residents.

However, we listen to area's requests from the bus company and convey them to the manufacturer, or if there is a technology that is lacking, we go back further and conduct research with suppliers and universities, incorporate it into the manufacturer, make it operational in area, and deliver it in a package.

For example, in Sakaimachi, there are not so many people on board, so we would rather increase the number of small buses and increase the number of buses. What about this kind of car? There is a small EV bus. If we provide a system that can procurement this car and manage its operation at area, it will be like buying a mobile phone, so everyone will have to set up their e-mail addresses and credit cards. The initial setting for automated driving buses is to make a 3D map or program bus stops and routes on the map.

It will take about one or two weeks for BOLDLY to get here in area. In addition, we will train human resources so that people in area can operate. Remote monitors, in-car operators, and people from automobile factories can perform maintenance in area. In this way, we will act as a catalyst for education public transportation in area, and our mission is to boost the economy of area.

Here, I would like to show how much automated driving Bus can be accepted by society and its potential. When we conducted an experiment in a town called Yazu-cho, Tottori, residents hung banners on the automated driving route and said, "Thank you very much." I understand that this is the flip side of the fact that we cannot live without automated driving Bus. We are very much relied on.

What about Sakaimachi, which is a practical application of the automated driving, is that it has been operating for two years and six months without any accidents, and about 17000 people are riding it as a means of transportation necessary for their lives. Everyone who has actually ridden it is smiling, and I can understand that men and women of all ages are using it.

For example, children are doing free research during summer vacation, and mothers are tweeting on Instagram about how fun it was to ride the bus. In addition, we want to support automated driving Bus, and there are gifts like "Please eat this baked cake." We are operating while being loved very much.

Three years ago, when the automated driving Bus started operating, our mothers sent us pictures of children who were old enough to enter elementary school last year. And this year is the third year, so they are in the second grade, so we are deeply moved that they are now as tall as the bus window.

For these children, the automated driving bus is already a part of their life. They meet up on the bus to go to the park, so the automated driving bus has become a part of their life.

If you say that automated driving Bus is perfect in terms of technology, it is not so. This automated driving Bus has more than one Issue. However, even if the government does not say anything, area will consider whether or not to adopt it. If there is any problem in terms of safety, area will consider the countermeasures, and area will take responsibility. This bus has been in operation for three years.

Each area's situation is different, so when introducing automated driving buses, I believe that there are principles that area should decide on the introduction, area should responsibly operate and nurture them, and it is the responsibility of the central government to support them.

The National Police Agency and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism are doing this well, and they are very supportive. For example, as a subsidy project for implementation in area, 600 million yen was allocated last year, and 4.3 billion yen was allocated this year.

We will distribute these to area, and let's try them first and create a way for each area. On top of that, we have already announced a plan to do 50 area in twenty twenty-five and 100 area in 2030. By doing 100 area, individual solutions will be accumulated, and based on them, guidelines and laws will be created.

In a word, I think it is the same as the Internet. The central government does not force the area to "do it this way" from the top down. As cases are created more and more, rules will be formulated based on them, and individual solutions and optimal solutions for local society will be quickly accumulated.

In terms of the position of BOLDLY as a implementation contractor, as Mr. Ishida pointed out, the current situation is that the contractor for this kind of subsidy project ends up in demonstration experiments.

For example, in fiscal 2021, nine area trains were operated in demonstration experiments, but except for the three area trains in which BOLDLY was adopted, area trains have been suspended. I think the reason why it has not been put into practical use is the difference in the goal setting. In general, when we say experiment, a Tokyo operator comes to area, runs it for the time being, and returns, leaving nothing in area. However, our goal is to create a state in which it can be operated in area.

What we are doing is, for example, in order to do automated driving, how many units do you want to do, in what form do you want to buy it, and for how many years do you want to do it? If you decide these conditions, you will already have a budget.

The problem is how to use this budget. For example, in Sakaimachi, Ibaraki, it costs 500 million yen for three automated driving trains. Here is a list of tasks to be done with this budget. From the left, planning. For example, creation of a operation plan, investigation, and preparation. In detail, submission of documents to the Transportation Bureau in administrative proceduer, or preparation using vehicles, creation of a map, programming, and test running of vehicles. In addition, training of area personnel, support of maintenance in case of breakdown, insurance, etc. We are doing these things. We are going to build all of them in area.

In the beginning, we cannot do everything in area, so BOLDLY will do the yellow part. But from the second and third times, we will gradually ask the area transportation company to adjust the local government when extending the automated driving bus route, and also ask the area transportation company to submit the documents. Or we will ask a area vendor to do the technical part, and we will reduce the yellow area by instilling the work.

In other words, local transportation companies and partner companies will receive it as work, and in the case of Sakaimachi, about half of the 520 million yen budget will be implementation as work for area, which will lead to their employment. If this happens, it will go around without us, and it will become a business model that circulates in area.

Well, regarding the business model, I just said 520 million yen, but please think of it as 100 million yen for a year. This is a copy of the material distributed to citizens by the town, and it says that 90 million yen was spent. It has been two years now, so it means that about 200 million yen was spent.

Well, in Sakaimachi, it is said that the economic effect was 1.3 billion yen. I think this is a huge number, but there are various details. automated driving Bus has been widely reported in the media, Sakaimachi itself has become famous, more people are moving to the city, and more people want to support it with Benefit-Your-Locality Hometown Tax. That's how cash is coming in as a cash-in. It has a tremendous effect. It is 100 million yen a year, so if 130 million yen is collected, it will be sustainable.

In addition, when applying for the Digital Garden City State or the Issue Fund for Regional Revitalization for various projects other than transportation, such as medical care, welfare, environmental and tourism projects, I think that the government office is considering policies from a higher perspective depending on the automated driving, such as trying to create an IT education for elementary school students by combining not only education, but also automated driving and education. education

It was adopted in Aichi Prefecture under the theme of cooperation between My Number Card and automated driving. In that way, the city is getting better and better at an accelerated pace. In Sakaimachi, three buses were operated, but this fiscal year, an additional five buses will be purchased. The bus business tends to be thought of as a public transportation of a negative cycle in which the number of buses is further reduced because the number of passengers decreases further due to the shortage of drivers and the reduced timetable, which makes it inconvenient. automated driving, on the other hand, is a positive cycle in which the more buses are operated, the more topics are talked about, new opportunities are attracted, and the money is used to increase the number of buses.

As an elevator that moves sideways like this, Sakaimachi has a zero yen fare. People ask if it is okay not to charge a fee, but it is true that the transportation sector will end up in the red. However, such efforts are being made nationwide. For example, in Okayama and Kumamoto prefectures, they held a free fare day and made manual buses free. For example, the number of customers who bought things increased, and a report says that it improved the economy of area by 500 million yen per day.

I wonder if fares are necessary in the first place. Before that, we must consider that the right to move is part of basic human rights. In a certain city, roads are like this, places where people gather are like this, or there are about this many bus stops where people want to get on. Then, how many automated driving buses and manually operated buses are run there, and how much it costs can be calculated automatically to some extent.

In other words, the necessary cost to be spent on the public transportation can be calculated based on the size of the city and the future image. I think there is a difference between the cost currently spent on transportation and the cost originally wanted to be spent. Now, the current cost is collected by the fare, and the government compensates for the part that cannot be collected. Deficit-covering subsidies are provided to transportation companies, but I think the budget necessary to protect the right to travel should be compensated.

For example, the compensation for the deficit of the French public transportation is very different from the Japanese one. The way of setting the budget can be changed greatly. There is such an example. In fact, the subsidy for the public transportation and the lower one is the freight revenue. The freight revenue certainly decreases as the population decreases. Therefore, the subsidy also tends to increase.

By transferring the subsidies from the central government to the prefectures, it may be possible to make it look like it has decreased for a moment, but the subsidies for transportation as a whole are increasing. Rather than gradually increasing them, the 2010s was an era in which we made it look like we had made a profit by closing down and reducing the number of trains. However, since it is an era of regional revitalization, I believe that it is necessary to make sure that the burden is properly borne for community development from the 2020s.

By doing so, the necessary number of flights will be secured for the first time, and the total amount of travel will increase, so that the revenue from transportation fares will also become sound. In this process, it is natural to buy EVs and automated driving vehicles and renew vehicles, but I think that unless we change our thinking somewhere, the effect of such investment will not appear.

In area, the number of loss-making routes is increasing rapidly, and some of them are cash cow routes, so I think it is OK to charge fares here. It is a bit unreasonable to maintain loss-making routes only by fares. However, if there is a scheme that can reduce the deficit, I think it should be continued. If the actual cost is red arrow a, and if the cost has been reduced to b by improving the management, it is a deficit that cannot be covered by the revenue from the fares alone. It is necessary to improve the management of the entire area by evaluating the efforts made to reduce the overall deficit.

What I have just mentioned is the original cost. When we compare the actual costs, we will have to keep the deficit down and maintain the local public transportation more and more, but the deficit down and the reduced operation must be seen as cost effectiveness.

The other is that ripple effects other than those in the transportation sector must also be considered to be the effects of transportation. The absolute values of the amount reduced and the amount increased by the ripple effects must be used to calculate the effects of automated driving and MaaS projects. Such a change in thinking is necessary. As an example, I don't think anyone has ever paid 100 yen and 200 yen to get on an elevator that moves horizontally. The idea is that the one that moves vertically is free, but why is the one that moves horizontally charged?

In a place called Haneda Innovation City near Haneda Airport, the automated driving and the cost of the elevator that moves sideways are built-in in addition to the rent and common service fees. Therefore, it can be maintained and managed forever without receiving fares from passengers. Such a business model has already been achieved. Haneda Innovation City is operating unmanned nighttime driving, and we will apply for Level 4 in the future.

In addition, in a place called VISON in Mie Prefecture, a new type of vehicle was operated the other day. In VISON, a level 4 exclusive road has already been secured, and unmanned transportation can be achieved in such a place. Similarly, in VISON, facilities and stores that have moved in have started a system in which the fare is covered by common area expenses in order to make money by having this vehicle. This time, we will do it on a town basis.

The Sakaimachi is free of charge, and the automated driving has been in operation for two and a half years. I would like to talk about what roles we expect the area Transportation Company to play, and how we hope to change society as a whole.

It is not that BOLDLY wants to operate automated driving Bus throughout Japan. There are already hundreds of transportation companies that have supported area Kotsu so far, so it is good if they evolve and realize a society in which they can make full use of automated driving. Therefore, the main players are area transportation companies and they are watching inside and outside automated driving Bus and thinking about whether it is dangerous or abnormal.

In the remote monitoring system, for example, how do you watch the safety of the inside of the car? Even if you know that the automated driving bus itself is safe, in fact, many things happen in the car, such as passengers suddenly getting up and walking, and children making noise. We are creating a safe and secure monitoring system that monitors the situation with AI, and if something happens, it will let the remote manager know.

For example, it is not good to just say that the automated driving bus will leave when the time comes. For those who say that they will get up and walk down now, it is not a matter of saying that they will leave when the time comes, but it is a matter of making sure that everyone gets off and that the new passengers have sat down properly, and the automated driving bus is running. That is what we do. Therefore, if one person can manage five or ten buses remotely, the efficiency of the manually operated bus industry, which is short of manpower, will improve.

Let's take a look at the Sakaimachi. This car is running. I hope there is someone in the car somewhere. It looks like this now. There are passengers, but nothing abnormal has occurred. For example, a strong brake is applied, and even a slight shake is detected as a strong brake to some extent, and a notification is sent to the remote supervisor. When the strong brake is applied, the remote supervisor checks the images inside and outside the car, checks if the customer has collapsed, and presses the response completion button. If the customer has collapsed, the staff in the car will contact the police and the hospital for rescue. The remote supervisor will communicate the information on the delay of the train schedule between the local government, the police, and the transportation business operator. In other words, the roles are divided between the remote side and the site.

In addition, where automated driving Bus applies the brakes is summarized in data every day. The tendency differs depending on the day, but for example, why is it easy to apply the brakes in such a place? Actually, it is easy for the site, because the road is narrow. When an oncoming car comes out of the lane while automated driving Bus is running, it is easy to detect it and apply the brakes. There are such places, but in order to make it comfortable to ride when the brakes are applied, let's drive slowly here, or install a mirror so that the automated driving Bus can be seen from the oncoming car. We are also using it to improve the road environment. In this way, triggered by automated driving, area is thinking with its own mind and updating the industry more and more.

And in this one area, there are cases where one remote monitor leaves his or her seat while watching. In such cases, in fact, I sometimes watch four area alone. Here it is. As for the actual remote monitoring center in Sakaimachi, Ibaraki, you can see automated driving buses in Hokkaido, Aichi, and Haneda Innovation City from Sakaimachi. When the manager of the site goes for a lunch break or a toilet break, he or she says he or she will baton the Sakaimachi, and they watch while taking over each other.

As of 2030, I would like to see manually operated buses operating vigorously, but I think that the current 60000 manually operated buses will be around 50000 at the most due to a labor shortage. Such manually operated buses will carry the main artery traffic as much as possible, and automated driving buses will be spread to the end traffic where labor is not available. I would like to create an industry structure in such a way that we can develop human resources to monitor it and hire them as workers nationwide. What benefits transportation companies have is as I have just mentioned.

Even if driving becomes automatic, the roles of people are very important. We would like to employ such people in area and steadily increase the number of such people. Bus company drivers are aging, but many young automated driving bus staff are finding employment, rejuvenating area bus companies. In addition, the employment rate of women is four times higher than that of ordinary drivers. Therefore, we will continue to rejuvenate area and update automated driving Bus.

Through children, we are making automated driving Bus better and better, but when we all learn about the imperfect mechanism of automated driving, first of all, how is it different between human eyes and automation? It's not about which is better, but it's about understanding the difference. In this way, children tell adults that automated driving Bus is amazing in places like this, but it's not perfect here. Now, we are in an age where automated driving Bus can be a souvenir for happy sets or something like that. I would like to deepen social understanding through children's education.

Let me summarize. I have been focusing on social affairs so far, but I would like to discuss both technology and schemes. automated driving buses need not only cars but also infrastructure technology and other various things.

In terms of infrastructure, the current situation is that even in Sakaimachi, only traffic lights have to be passed manually. Regarding the technology of traffic lights, the technology of cooperation between automated driving vehicles and traffic lights has been discussed in various places, but all the talks are about that technology.

I have heard that the most important theme this time is that discussions on the scheme, such as which budget will be used for the implementation, who will make the reservation, and what responsibilities will be assumed, have yet to begin.

When the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism and the National Police Agency talk about the technology and the scheme, it will be like it is neither ball. That's right. This time, we asked the Digital Garden City Issue Fee to be added to the automated driving for three years in Sakaimachi, Ibaraki, and the cost to implementation the signal was included. We would like to discuss what kind of scheme is necessary for nationwide dissemination by utilizing such funds. That is all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much. I would like to ask questions and comments. What do you think? Yes, Mr. Koda, please.

Koda Member: AsMama. Thank you very much. In fact, I went to Sakaimachi and showed him automated driving. In particular, as Mr. Ishida mentioned earlier, even in places where there are really no places for children to walk to school, I thought it would be very effective to run a automated driving bus where children can go to school safely and securely.

In addition, as you can see when you actually go there, the data management is really thorough, and the bus stops properly when a person tries to pass in front of it. I thought that this bus has such proper safety management that I thought it might have a brain, and I thought that this is also a wonderful place because it is using digital technology.

Well, what I found very interesting in Mr. Saji's talk was the fact that we can properly analyze the demographics and digitalization based on the city map and run the automated driving buses that are really necessary. I thought that the government should actively intervene in such areas.

On the other hand, if you go there, you'll see that the speed is extremely slow. I think it's because they are safe, but also, the last mile, for example, they can't get you to the entrance of the hospital, or they want you to get here, which is why public transportation is no match for them. Or they want you to hurry.

In rural areas, buses and trains are not enough to support people's lives, and there are many places where there is less than one bus per hour. In such places, as I said at the beginning, ride-sharing is an initiative that should be actively taken in parallel with automated driving, because infrastructure costs are not particularly high.

In fact, if we want to expand ride-sharing, for example, with automated driving, to the countryside, local government, which has to think about how to get around area in local government, cannot flexibly do things like ride-sharing. Is it really people-centered? Is the road really a public space? We should think about it carefully, and in this area, we should actively introduce ride-sharing, and if there is movement of residents, we should actively introduce automated driving buses. I think that is very important.

Finally, if you go there, you will understand that Mr. Saji is communicating with the residents of the Sakaimachi. This is not something that can be done by anyone other than Mr. Boldly. The sense of security of the residents is greatly derived from humanity, so I thought that the national government should take the lead in announcing safety and security by utilizing data. That is all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much. I would like to ask some questions and opinions, and Saji san will answer them later. Yes, Mr. Yamamoto, please.

Member: Yes. This is ITS Japan Yamamoto. Thank you very much, Saji. We, ITS Japan, are also experiencing automated driving, which Saji is developing, in quite a variety of places.

In Saji-san's presentation, what is very important is that Saji-san's know-how must be shared more and more. Not only that it went well, but also that it didn't go well. I think there are quite a few hurdles.

For example, yesterday, when I actually talked with Mr. BOLDLY's members, when you cross the sidewalk at automated driving, you must stop once. Even if there is no one. How about this? Because there is a sensor, it is 10 meters and 15 meters, and if there is no one, you don't have to stop once. This is one of the reasons. Also, Hitachi's BRT, which was a little talked about yesterday, runs on automated driving as BRT. I think it is a very good methodology to increase the number of automated driving services by dozens, but BRT stops at Issue crossings. How about this? I don't say all the hurdles are not going well, but I think it is better to include something in the roadmap about the process of turning PDCA in the roadmap and solving problems in some way.

In addition, ITS Japan is talking with people in local government about various things. For example, we will go to Kochi prefecture and ask for help with the public transportation system, usage promotion measures, and the burden of costs. But actually, I'm a little rude, but people in local government don't talk so much with people in other prefectures. They say they are doing well in Kumamoto, so they won't help us. They say, "How are you doing in local government together with Kumamoto?" Such a system for sharing information between local government should be included in the roadmap, although it will be a management process.

Also, Mr. Koda said at the end. Ride-sharing. I really think so. Not only local transportation, but also inbound transportation. I went to Portugal last week, and I feel really relieved. Even if I walk around many places, I can go by Uber at the end, but it does not mean that it will be introduced to all regions. The place where I live nearby is a so-called tourist spot, but I should not be allowed to enter such a place. However, if I enter a area through regional revitalization, young people can earn money on the side, and I think the utilization of local resources in public assistance that Mr. Ishida said is not only for transportation companies. There are various things at the Local public transportation Conference, but I think we should talk about it. That is all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much.

I would like to ask you a question, Mr. Saji. Today, you showed me an example of Sakaimachi. I think it is a first mover advantage. I would like you to tell me what is necessary and how you are going to develop it as it expands and fades. What do you think?

Mr. Saji: . Thank you very much, Mr. Koda. Regarding the social implementation of automated driving Bus, it is true that I have been deeply involved in area. Sakaimachi has been firmly involved in the practical application for about one year. Mr. Murase of WILLER told me that if I had the will, I should live there for two years, so I could not achieve that, but I think that it had a considerable effect.

On the other hand, the employees of BOLDLY, including new employees, have gone to various places and entered them just because I taught them that mindset. For example, Iyoshi in Ehime prefecture and Kamishihoro-cho in Hokkaido prefecture. There are not only grandpa and grandma, but also many mom friends. There are many employees who are in such a state, and if you leave people with me for three months, I am confident that I will raise all of them like that.

So, I think this is a scheme that allows us to expand horizontally to other companies. The only difference is the goal setting. It is for the purpose of validation of technology, for example, universities. I think there are venture companies, and I think it is necessary to raise their perspective.

Isn't the technology of your company really just technology? Are you willing to make a product? Are you willing to sell it as a service? Are you willing to guarantee it? After thorough discussion, we are in a state where we can hand over our know-how as much as we want. Some business operators actually came to us for training, learned it, and returned it.

Next, I believe that only the first movers pointed out by Mr. Ishida will be able to receive benefits, but I believe that there is a kind of bubble. However, at least now, Kamishihoro-cho and Nisshin City, Aichi, were single-year projects last fiscal year, but I would like to say that this fiscal year, too, is it being continued with the budget being properly allocated in local government. For one thing, there is a discussion about making a comprehensive judgment on what benefits area residents will receive, rather than considering only the transportation sector.

Another thing is that we actually have to do before selling automated driving Bus. For example, we look at the situation in area, and find out that there are mandarin oranges and bonito flakes in area. We will publicize them and submit them to Benefit-Your-Locality Hometown Tax. Benefit-Your-Locality Hometown Tax is just one means, but if we do so, we will receive 300 million yen or 500 million yen in tax revenues as donations to area.

Then, with the 500 million yen we collected, let's use 50 million yen to run automated driving Bus. And then, let's use the remaining 25 million yen for medical care. Let's use it for education. So, people who use automated driving Bus, to cheer up the elderly and children, it is meaningless unless there are people who ride it. In addition, let's use money for tourism and base maintenance. Since there are 250 million of them, let's create destinations such as those places and support for opening stores. Let's think about how to run automated driving Bus together.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much. Mr. Suda and Mr. Koshizuka are raising their hands, so could you please start with Mr. Suda?

Mr. Suda: Thank you very much, Mr. Hidaka Yes, this is Suda. Thank you very much, Saji san. I was involved in quite a few places, so I would like to ask you to introduce me.

In Sakaimachi, I believe that we have started signal cooperation in terms of infrastructure cooperation. If you could tell us what is ideal for this cooperation, I think it would be a good fit for this issue. So, I thought it would be good if you could talk about Issue and other requests. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much. Next, Mr. Koshizuka, please.

Koshizuka Member: Mr. , I'm Koshizuka. Thank you very much. I'm a digital store, not a transportation store that sells cars, and in the meetings so far, there have been various discussions about the importance of data. When we talk about data and data infrastructure, in general, everyone has to do it, and it's important, but when we think about it one by one, then, what exactly is it? Well, that's where it tends to be, and I would like to ask Mr. Saji, who is actually operating it, if there are more data available now, but we are in trouble because we cannot use it, or if we could do something like this. On the other hand, if there is a request from the data side, I would like to hear it. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.

Mr. Saji: , first of all, Mr. Suda, thank you very much. For signal coordination, if we try various implementation of existing technologies in the 2020s, I think it would be good if we could proceed with discussions on a scheme for sharing responsibility and who should pay the budget regardless of the technology. I think the 2020s is such a period. And the technology itself will be updated rapidly. Mobile phones will also change generations, from 3G to 4G to 5G. If we look back after the spread, the cost of trial and error at the beginning is already a kind of error, so now we should have the courage to do it first. Standardization should be done after that.

Next, I would like to ask if there is any data that we could not use. It is like a robot that uses our highly accurate GPS information and generates data by reflecting the traffic situation, such as how many minutes the bus actually ran behind.

Also, by doing so, we can actually provide feedback on where the automated driving Bus could not pass smoothly, whether there was on-street parking or road construction, and we would like to link this with disaster information and road maintenance information.

In addition, when setting up a automated driving bus, it is necessary to create a 3D map each time, but if the government continues to provide guidance and develop such digital infrastructure, I believe that social implementation will advance at low cost by using existing data, rather than manufacturers creating 3D maps based on separate standards. That is all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much. You also discussed the various points to be included in the roadmap, so thank you very much. Then, next, I would like to ask Mr. Hidaka to make a presentation and proceed with the discussion again. Thank you.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set in MaaS Tech Japan. Today, I will be announcing as a member, so I would like to talk about the MaaS industry as a member of the member, rather than introducing our company.

As you discussed earlier, there is automated driving, and various mobility services, including ride-sharing, which Commissioner Koda mentioned, are available in the world. However, MaaS is not the implementation service itself, but rather the integration of various mobility services with the integration of various forms of transport services, which is described in the MaaS Alliance white paper in 2017. mobility

I believe that it is possible to select one after integrating them. In addition to area transportation, people travel overseas by rail, bus, or air, so I believe that it also includes how to integrate them into one for users, or how to apply mobility to area as a regional experience.

I believe that this is an extremely important concept for both area and Issue. In this context, I believe that there will be various urban areas, ride-sharing, and demand transportation in the future that will cooperate with mobility services. I believe that each automated driving, including the railway, is mobility. In contrast to railways, buses, and aviation, automated driving, automated driving, and Boldly are being dealt with. One is something that runs at a low speed and is finely tuned, and the other is something that runs at a speed of 30 or 40 kilometers per hour and can accommodate dozens of people. I believe that there is talk in regulation about how many kilometers can be driven. I believe that the so-called large and fast vehicles that can be ridden a lot and the vehicles that can move finely even with a small number of people will be switched depending on the characteristics of the town and the characteristics of the road. Therefore, in the roadmap for mobility, we will talk about such vehicles, and the roads that run through them, and will it be possible to make so many of them as an industry? I believe that it would be good if area could properly develop mobility services, which is only an outline, and then decide which one to choose. mobility

In addition, Mobility as a Services, MaaS, and various transportation companies, including mobility Service, which Mr. BOLDLY is probably involved in, are digital. As I believe physical cooperation is very important, as pointed out by the Committee members earlier, we will integrate data, services, and operations in digital, and optimize it for users, and optimize it for area.

I believe that this is the very concept of cooperation and integration that no one would deny, but when we actually try it, there are various things that need to be done, and it is difficult to do it immediately.

So, in this MaaS level, which is written by a teacher at Chalmers University of Technology, information provision and settlement, which are not about operation and driving, but about the service layer, are not linked. A single taxi is a taxi, and both automated driving vehicles and automated driving vehicles are separate taxis. Information provision is based on the level of what time it runs, whether it is delayed, how to get on it, and how to pay for it. Information provision is Level 1, and reservations and settlement are integrated at Level 2. Level 3 is for service. I think it includes some adjustment of operation.

Because of the Antimonopoly Act, it is difficult to make arbitrary adjustments among transportation companies. However, I believe that the law will be revised. Level 3 4 is the integration policy, and using these functions, we will solve the policy Issue in the area, including the cooperation of operations, although we cannot make MaaS applications. I believe that the reason why this is gray is that there are various meanings, but although it is quite difficult to reach Level 4, it is not possible to do everything just because a policy is decided, and it is not possible to realize it if there is technology. I believe that we will work together with policy and technology to achieve this.

In that case, cooperation is necessary, investment is also necessary, and competition is also necessary. I believe that it is necessary to separate the part of competition from the part of collaboration and co-creation in the sense of creating together. As quoted from Mr. Digital Agency's material, in the concept of mutual assistance, the data connections foundation is stated as one country, and I believe so.

In particular, with regard to platforms and general mobility services, the reason why they should be constructed in a cooperative manner is that they cannot be monetized or attract difficult investments even if they are implemented in each area, and I believe that there are cases in which it is necessary to work across multiple business operators, or to work in multiple local government at the same time, rather than in one local government, so I believe that this is an area of mutual cooperation. local government

For example, in Viennese, the mobility service platform is funded by local government, and private sector operators are actually responsible for it. By using such a platform, all mobility services are centralized.

By doing so, it will not be fragmented for users, and as I am quoting from the presentation materials, for example, whether to increase the number of bicycles, increase the ratio of automated driving, or make it a compact city so that people can maintain their lives even if the total amount of travel decreases because there are so many or so few private cars in area, which is called the transportation sharing ratio in terms of walking ratio. Mr. Ishida's presentation earlier had various analyses based on data, but I do not know how people choose their means of transportation, including what we will focus on in the future due to the lack of data. If we conduct a survey, we may be able to understand it by counting by ticking, but I think it is important to provide feedback on whether it is always the case and what will happen if both automated driving vehicles and JR are included.

This was announced by Mr. S' hail at the IPS Conference 2019 in Dubai. In addition to integrating services for users, transportation and mobility services will be integrated in area, and not only data analysis but also operations will be conducted. How to use car-sharing, rental cars, and ride-sharing will be used. After integrating these data, service operations will also be connected. The tip of the iceberg is easy to understand, but when it comes to MaaS, MaaS apps are of course very important, and operation cooperation is also very valuable. There are various ways to call it MaaS, but I believe that was the announcement made.

Among them, I would like to introduce some examples in the sense of a little cooperation, such as the Issue solution in area. In the Kansai mobility, seven railway companies in the Kansai region will jointly build it, and I believe that not only railways but also secondary transportation, buses, and other areas will be cooperated in the future. There are cases in which such cooperation between business operators is possible, and in the Kyushu area, public-private cooperation is possible in all prefectures. Seven prefectures, including Kyushu, Yamaguchi, and Okinawa, and transportation business operators will cooperate. Public-private cooperation is often necessary, but in fact, it is an initiative to hold regular meetings to collect money and build a digital platform. Needless to say, there will be more than one such initiative, not only transportation but also tourism. It is a place that requires a lot of effort to promote cooperation among so many parties, and I would like to introduce some cases in which such cooperation is possible in Japan.

In that context, from the perspective of MaaS app controllers, there is the extent to which things like urban OS are included in the roadmap this time. I would like to include discussions on automated driving technologies, infrastructure cooperation between physical and digital in each area, and data integration in the service layer and operation layer.

In order to realize this, the story of one area is also important, and I believe that the story of one area, in which data, automated driving, and ride-sharing can all be done in a full set in one area, is also important. In particular, I believe that it will be a nation-wide story of digital survey, so I have tentatively described what will happen if we try to do it nationwide.

When smart cities Toshi OS or MaaS is introduced overseas, I think it is very interesting. Here, I would like to show you two views of Issue.

One is the characteristics of transportation businesses. Is it that public authorities takes the initiative in carrying out transportation businesses for the public interest and entrusts them to private sector? Is it that private sector approves transportation businesses but basically leaves them to the business characteristics of private sector? Which is better? I think it is wonderful to carry out transportation businesses in Kyushu, but the format is a little different from that overseas, and there are a few more than that.

Due to the competition policy in each area, there is only one bus company in some areas, but multiple companies have supported the structure of area while competing. In terms of railways, the number of railway and bus companies in such an area is a little different. When it comes to digital interconnection, it is a public interest, and we may be able to do it this way, but in the private sector project, we are talking about how to restrict it. I think Professor Koshizuka is also working on interconnection from the perspective of separation, heterogeneity, and number of systems, so I would like you to comment on that later, but there is a talk about this difficulty, technology, and scheme. In area, who will manage the entire transportation system? It is written as MaaS operator, so even if it is not that word, in each area, railways, buses, ride-sharing, and how to separate the existing mobility from the new mobility are considered in public authorities.

I think so, but if a new private business joins the project, should all of them go out of business? The question of who and how to coordinate the stakeholders is because it is necessary to cooperate with the government and have a perspective of public interest, and if private sector does not make a certain amount of money, it cannot operate as a project. I think providing subsidies is one measure, but how to achieve both business profit and public interest is also very important when considering mobility regardless of MaaS. I think that the city OS may be divided.

So, basically, I would like to talk about the system. You asked earlier what kind of system would be good, but in terms of mobility and transportation, ride-sharing, demand, railways and buses, the perspective of users' use, and GTFS and how they operate are still not developed. No matter how much they run, they don't know what time they will come, they don't get it, and they don't know it even if they check it. If it is a good service, it will be difficult to access the mobility service. So, if it is a good service, everyone will be able to know it, and of course, cash settlement or free payment may be fine, but it will be easier for users to use it if the settlement and reservations are unified.

In addition, how much was used in area is obtained from railway ticket gates, IC cards, smartphone base stations, and taxis. It is said that the data is different here and the business operators are different, so I think it is quite a work. We would like to solve this somehow.

In that context, you mentioned cooperative areas and the co-creation area earlier, but in my personal opinion, I wonder if we can set it up like this. For example, when we look at it as an industry, how to attract investment from Commissioner Muramatsu earlier, if we don't see the business feasibility to some extent, where only subsidies are provided for a long time, it is difficult for startups and private sector to do so, for example, there are many common elements, and honestly, it does not change much no matter who does it, and it is important as infrastructure. For example, the timetable data is the timetable data no matter who creates it, so the maintenance of it is infrastructural, and if we have it, we can search for routes, and we can prepare signage and tell automated driving what time it runs, for example. Regarding that layer, it is not something that everyone develops in a cooperative manner and fights for the first time, but it is something that cooperative areas should do collectively or some business operators should do collectively. I think it is okay to share it, but cooperative areas. If we are in the MaaS area, I think we will provide information. Perhaps automated driving and various ride-sharing platforms are also available.

On the other hand, if there is diversity, high business potential, or innovation is necessary, I think that it is necessary to make investments in areas that need to be improved gradually, rather than making them once and ending them. Therefore, it is not enough to subsidize operating costs, but it is possible to make profits if a certain amount of profits are generated and investments are made in these areas.

If so, in the case of start-ups, equities can be held in procurement, and banks can hold and lend money. I think it would be good to keep those amounts as cooperative areas, and to make competitive areas the part that needs Japanese vitality in private sector and efforts in private sector. I think it is easier to say this, but I hope that it can be organized in Mobility Roadmap from this perspective.

This figure is a further translation of that, but as I said earlier, if we look at it from another perspective, as Commissioner Koda said, private sector and the administration, B is business in private business, G is the government, including the local part, the prefectural government and the city of public office, and C is consumers and customers, as shown in the figure, MaaS is something that B, the so-called transportation companies, cooperate with, and G people, for transportation companies in area, I think there is an alliance from area to B to do something together.

Under B, other industries and other business operators are included in transportation. Originally, there are many transportation business operators in private sector whose real estate revenue is higher than their transportation revenue. Of course, it is not so. There are companies that have profitable transportation routes and business models that make profits from location, real estate, and interaction. However, I think that the characteristics of railway and major bus companies in private sector's transportation business are that they are so-called conglomerates. So, in that structure, on the left side, people in G have public value. If they do not do it because there are few people or they do not make profits, they collect taxes. In addition, mobility has to develop the area in a balanced manner. Then, it is not so much that there are many people or few people, but it is necessary to secure public value that people can live in various places properly.

On the other hand, in private sector, business revenue is necessary, so it is also similar to public interest value, but there are times when it faces a different vector by 180 degrees. After all, it is not good to divide the discussion between rural and urban areas, but that the discussion can be made firmly. I think Mr. Saji's story earlier is close to that, but is it only the scheme of compensation for buses that covers business revenue for public interest value, or is it just that mobility is operated under the same target, so how to solve this point of view is necessary, even though it is a challenge.

I believe that it would be good to change the industrial structure if the government were to spend money on this kind of thing and work on it because private sector and cooperative areas can do this kind of thing.

Let me summarize. I would like to make it simple, but for the creation of industry, such as the transportation Issue in area, which we call MaaS, I believe that it is still necessary to organize the concept of mobility transportation, define it, and incorporate it into action plans.

At the same time, if it is closed due to traffic, it will be difficult to match the actual situation. There are times when the story of business revenue does not match, so we need to take a bird' s-eye view of the entire industry, including the public and private sectors. Earlier, Dr. Ishida said that I also focus only on MaaS and mobility services, so of course we need to talk about roads and liveliness, and that is necessary.

My third question is, in that sense, particularly in the current situation where automated driving and Kotsu area Issue are combined, we still have to think about various things, and although implementation is being conducted by the Study Group, we still have to evolve it. Is it necessary to develop it? At this stage, I believe that the formulation of a roadmap will have a really significant impact.

Fourth, there are talks about private-private cooperation and public-private co-creation, but there are also talks about financial resources and budgetary authority, which are interrupted at each end, so there is a question of what the neighboring prefecture will do, and there is also a question of whether it is a transaction of public nature if private sector are too united. I think there are still talks about ride-sharing, so I think it is necessary to ease the regulation, make rules, and form a consensus among the entire industry.

Finally, although it is quite a complicated story, I believe that the points you mentioned are being raised here, so we should make investments that should be expanded in addition to concerted efforts. Now, the government is also providing support for start-ups, so we can expand where there is business growth, including policy, architecture, or structure. I think it would be good if we could discuss not only the system but also the structure of the business. That is all from me.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much. I would like to ask questions, opinions, and ideas about Mr. Hidaka's presentation. What do you think? Yes, Mr. Muramatsu, please.

Mr. Muramatsu: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Hidaka . I really sympathize with you, but I think it can be expressed as a burden on beneficiaries. It does not mean that only the people who ride the car bear the cost, but as Mr. Saji said in his presentation earlier, if "the economic effect of the whole town has been realized," the beneficiaries will be municipalities, etc. In addition, if the sales of supermarkets have improved and the number of visitors to restaurants has increased due to the running of the automated driving vehicles, the beneficiaries will be those stores. Looking at the overhead view projected, I thought that if we more specifically visualization and increase the number of stakeholders and involve the whole, including the visualization stakeholders, the business will be created as a whole and the positive cycle will turn. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Kawabata, please.

Kawabata Member: I think it is very much about mobility, including the flow of money in society as a whole, but I was glad that you organized the flow of life and funds, which was very easy to understand.

Actually, I think we have to make profits in a multi-layer structure. For example, in the case of MaaS, Whim in Finland and MaaS in Estonia are often mentioned as examples, but when I actually go there, if Whim is also included, people who choose unlimited rides end up riding taxis and moving on their own.

Because it is very convenient, it is said that a lot of CO2 will be emitted if people use private transportation. Also, in Estonia, the government imposes a city tax so that all people in urban areas can ride on a resident card or a My Number Card, but in the end, people with money can shift to a private car.

In that case, it is very important for governments and public entities to use tax revenues to secure their foundations to a certain extent. However, if we want to secure only by using tax revenues, there is a structure in which people with money move with money because of its convenience. Therefore, I think it would be good to create a double money structure in which people who move with money and public transportation need to secure.

For example, IKEA is considered to be a furniture company, but it operates like a real estate company, buys a place like a wilderness, creates circulation in the form that people come because IKEA is there, and IKEA secures transportation to IKEA at its own place.

As a result, newly married people and families with more children will buy furniture in the area, so on the premise that the generation with active consumption will gather to some extent, we have a structure in which even furniture stores are placed on IKEA land.

Then, in addition to creating a structure with a public nature, by putting such a structure with a business nature well, the entrepreneur is better at producing human circulation, so it is a balance between that. Rather than one of the responsibilities, if a structure can be created in which the part secured by the public nature, for example, the capital will come in more than the public works in this area, it is possible to attract more and more projects by putting the public part in the support.

For this area, the public nature is quite difficult at present. If we want to build it for the future, I think it would be better to increase the amount of government money at first, and then gradually reduce it, for example, by creating a plan to inject capital at this timing, or to attract capital, and then create a plan to reduce it from all sources. I think I can see many examples from overseas.

In particular, when AEON advances into Japan, AEON disappears. By the way, sudden desolation occurs even if we rely only on capital. But in that case, the reason why AEON withdraws is that, before blaming AEON for withdrawing, even if the land around AEON prospers, for example, if AEON does not make much profit even if it is a real estate and secures its MaaS, it will naturally disappear, and suddenly there will be no players who have earned circulation. When I heard your story today, I thought that it would be good to be able to skillfully combine places that are driven by capital and places that must be supported by the public.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much. Mr. Koshizuka is raising his hand, and I would like you to make a statement next. There are some members who have participated today and have not made a statement yet, so I would like you to make a statement. Mr. Koshizuka, please.

Koshizuka Member: Mr. , I'm sorry, thank you very much. Listening to your story, there are so many things that I can sympathize with. At the beginning, Mr. Murakami said that it is quite difficult to make a payment alone in mobility, especially in rural areas, and it is difficult to break even. I think that was the beginning of this meeting in the first place. So, it is difficult to make a payment alone. There are two stories. One is about whether competitive areas should be stopped and cooperative areas should be made. The other is about not going alone but combining them. It is about cooperating with other businesses. In short, it is about cooperating with profitable businesses and becoming a viable mobility.

With these two approaches, MaaS has probably been done, and I believe that both of them have been done in the field in a very difficult situation, so I would like to ask you on the contrary. In that case, as in the example of the data I mentioned earlier, business integration is a general idea, but depending on the details, what should be done? It is said that this much is done in the field, and such integrated MaaS is common in the world, but this is not good. In fact, when business integration or services are combined, there are places where they can be done and where they cannot be done, and I think there is a sense of the field, and I would like you to tell me that there are places where you can feel it. I would like you to tell me that there are places where you can feel it.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yes, thank you very much. Then, I would like to ask Member Koda.

Koda Member: Yes, just a word. It is very difficult to expand the scale of business, but for example, as children's cafeterias have expanded throughout the country, it is more likely to be a non-profit corporation, or a sharing idea, such as ride-sharing, which I mentioned earlier. By incorporating such ideas, I think there is a way of thinking that we should not try to solve problems from one to 100 all of a sudden, but instead do it on a private sector basis.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , I would like to ask you if you have a response.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set in 's comments and Mr. Koda's comments. To be honest, we are already working hard to build a data infrastructure, visualization, and struggling to take action from there. Now, in Hiroshima, Kyushu, Shiobara, and other places, I think we should work hard to create the digital part of the data, but it is difficult to summarize what kind of choice we will make in the future.

While the number of users is decreasing, what should be left and what should be increased? There is also a new mobility. Among them, there is talk about what to do with a new mobility. There is also talk about what the transportation infrastructure in the existing private sector is like now and what should be done in the future.

In other words, for example, in the bus business, there are probably two types of large drivers, and if they are in such a situation, they may want to drive a truck. In addition, since they cannot get a fare and their salary cannot be raised, it is physically difficult to secure bus drivers.

For example, I think relatively no one is opposed to taking charge of this part of ride-sharing. On the other hand, I want to make profits and pay more salaries to bus drivers, which I can't do otherwise, including taxis. There will be a sudden influx of ride-sharing, and the number of users will decrease. I think it is good to think that ride-sharing is a cooperative idea. In private sector, which supported area, travel was a bundle, and although it can be done door-to-door, the project will collapse. It can be said that MaaS is a three letter word, but it is a concept that includes all of these things, and I think it is quite complicated. However, if you can make one business evaluation like this, a new mobility like the one you mentioned earlier is necessary to cover private car travel in some area.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, presentation. I think the reasons are simple, but if we do not think about each and every issue in detail, we will never be able to reach an agreement. Amidst this, I believe that Issue is extremely difficult in terms of how to create a roadmap with a sense of speed. I would like to discuss this further.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set in Well, as Mr. Ishida said, in the MaaS industry, MaaS Alliance, in the new Executive Director's vision of organization, there is a Knowledge Loop, which is a loop somewhere, and in order to turn the loop of what kind of consensus should be formed when a new mobility including MaaS and traffic is entered, and what kind of evaluation should be made for the whole, I don't know which one is good, but at least it will be easier to make a judgment based on correct various information, and it will be easier to reach the correct answer.

It is impossible to entrust it to strategic consultants, so I would like to share the know-how on how to make it mandatory for local local government, G and B, and the national government. I would like to know if there is a way for people in local government and transportation companies in area to do it. If it becomes easier to organize it in excel, I think it will be possible to do it digitally.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, . I was very encouraged that what you just said is exactly what Saji is doing. Mr. Suda, I can hold your hand up. Please make your statement.

Mr. Suda: Thank you very much, Mr. Hidaka . I would also like to make good use of MaaS, but from that perspective, the most important story in mobility is safety. I thought that MaaS would make a considerable contribution to such places and CO2 reductions, as you just mentioned. I thought that if we launched such a mechanism a little more, it would be possible to put it into practice in various places. In that sense, I thought that if we could choose a route with less CO2, it would be a story that would be accepted by society. That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, . Mr. Hatano, at the Self-Driving Business Review Meeting a little while ago, you said that both the automated driving bubble and the MaaS bubble have burst, and I was impressed. My expression is slightly different, but it is not so swollen as to pop. I think it is accurate to say that it is shrinking, and on the other hand, if it is not popping, it will be possible to inflate it again. In response to this, I believe that one of the central discussions today or at the Review Meeting will be what kind of place should automated driving or MaaS strive for?

I am sorry for asking this out of the blue, but I would like to ask you if you have any comments on that or Mr. Hidaka's MaaS discussion, so I have put my name forward.

Member of Hatano: Thank you for your nomination. I am participating in this meeting as a member of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association. In particular, the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association is working together on both the technical and business sides. I understand that I would like to discuss how the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association, the industry, and the industry are discussing technology.

In that sense, from a technological perspective, we are thinking about the social implementation of unmanned mobile services in the near future. However, there are limits to technology, and in particular, if we try to realize autonomous self-help without relying on humans by using a single system, the rules for achieving this, or the rules for providing safe services, as Dr. Suda mentioned earlier, were established in Public-Private ITS Concept and Roadmap in 2014, so I think it took six or seven years.

However, considering the areas, scope, and scenes in which we moved and would like to provide transportation services, including area and public transportation, as you are discussing today, I believe that there is still a lack of autonomous solutions. I believe that they are qualitatively shared. In that case, there is a high possibility that the parts that are lacking will exceed the limits of autonomy, so the idea of mutual assistance and public assistance, how to apply this and how to fulfill it, and whether it will be safe and secure in the areas where we would like to provide services. In terms of making rules for mutual assistance and public assistance, it is rough to say, but I understand that there will still be discussions going forward.

In terms of transportation, if we consider that the environments of public transportation are shared not only by automated driving but also by all participants in transportation, it would be a little difficult to impose unreasonable demands only on automated driving. Therefore, the JAMA is thinking about how to realize it as a whole, and we would like to share it and advance our discussions.

I am not personally in a position to talk about the business axis, so I would like to refrain from saying this. However, I believe that the idea of considering mobility in combination with society, which Mr. Ishida really mentioned, is an extremely important issue, and we would like to be involved in it. However, from the perspective of the industry that has provided automobiles, I would like to ask one thing. I believe that mobility is not simply a spatial thing.

Considering that mobility is a product of space and time, for example, 60 vehicles pass through the city to transport 60 people, but 60 vehicles do not stay here all the time. In that sense, I believe that the way to use space can be expanded or can be considered in various ways. I would like to participate in the discussion, including such parts and technical aspects. That is all from me today.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, : Thank you very much. I have a question for Mr. Hidaka. I believe that the Kyushu and Kansai Region-wide MaaS are very interesting and advantageous initiatives, and I believe that it is very important to expand the base of business operators. However, I believe that there are quite a few people who are interested in digital, applications, and data platforms, and I would like to ask if there are any specific efforts being made in Kyushu or the Kansai region to expand the base.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set in , we are creating a consortium. Although it is not just a digital platform, it is better to connect digital platforms than to make multiple platforms in the same area and not to connect them. I think it is quite simple or simple thinking that we can make cheap and good ones because all the participants share them.

I believe that Mr. Digital Agency is working on it, but it is difficult for a small company that is currently in the red to create a digital platform on its own. There may be cases where Mr. private business comes to sell, but if he cannot pay, it is difficult.

In light of this, it would be better to connect digital platforms, data connections, and applications to places that are connected to a certain extent, such as areas or routes. In light of the impact of traffic and people, the more connected the network is, the more far you can go, creating a network effect and a natural effect as transportation. I believe that it would be possible to achieve the purpose of this. It would not be good if it were too wide, but it could be used when there are many parties. I also believe that it would be good if the Knowledge Loop, which I mentioned earlier, could solve Issue problems in small areas between small parties and solve problems in large areas over a wide area.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, are well involved in various matters with such an awareness? I don't think they are the parties concerned.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set in : As far as I know, we are building a organization, and the railway company is building a platform, and in the future, we are doing it together with buses and other operators in the form of circulation. One thing is that there is the World Expo of twenty twenty-five, and it is a legacy of that, and the place where the operators are doing it together was in the news.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, . Lastly, I would like to ask if you have any requests or opinions about how to proceed as a whole. What do you think? Please go ahead.

Mr. Hidaka: I think it would be good if we could do it in one set in . In automated driving, there are many things to do in automated driving, and there are many MaaS. I think there is also a way to gather know-how while doing it in various area.

First of all, in terms of mobility services, I think it would be good if we could make efforts to collect all of them, including timetable data, including individual companies, demand transportation, community buses, and maybe roads, although we are not trying to collect all of them in one place, and if we could make efforts to collect all of them in one place, I don't know if it would be a successful example. I think it would be good if it would evolve greatly in the future, but I think it is necessary for the country to have a co-creation that has to be widely implemented. It could be an ideal city or some other city, and if all of them are collected, mobility services in the future would be able to reach this level by this fiscal year. In order to make milestones, I think it would be good to think about it in detail.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, . I think this is an important point. In closing, I would like to give you my impressions. I believe that what is consistent with your opinions is also my idea. I must clearly show how we think about value.

In addition, as is often said, how to create a vision is important. As Mr. Takashi said today, it is important to create a vision somewhere properly. It is not just that, it is to create a vision as an example. I would like to ask what and how to proceed toward that.

I was not aware of the time frame, but I thought that it would take a considerable amount of time, but even so, I could not wait, or I could do it right away. I thought that I should be careful about that.

And the other thing is, to what extent should we consider the range? I think it was about 10 years ago that I remembered the cross-sector effect, but Mr. Mori, the former mayor of Toyama City, improved transportation, and as a result, elderly people are going out, and medical care expenses are steadily decreasing. Or, Toyama city is quite large, so if you come to the central part of Toyama City from a distance, you can get a big discount on public transportation expenses.

As a result, the central part of the city will be bustling, land prices will not fall under city planning, and fixed asset taxes will rise under city planning, which is good for tax revenues. That was also proven. For example, as a problem of the construction of the whole country, the medical care budget seemed to be good, and it was quite a cross sector. I think it is improving. However, it is not enough to give up, but it is evidence to move the world in such a way. I thought I had to do it by superimposing an outcome indicator, a time frame, and a range.

That being the case, there were various discussions today on the specific approach and scale to be taken, and I believe that you pointed out today that it is also important to consider who will be involved and how.

I would like to do this three more times in a short period of time, but I would be grateful if you could continue to have various discussions. I didn't have much trouble with time control today, so I would be grateful if you could have a lively discussion so that I can have a little more trouble. I look forward to working with you next time.