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The 4th Study Group on the Ideal of "Mobility Roadmap"

Overview

  • Date and time: Wednesday, July 12, 2023, from 10:00 to 12:30
  • Location: Kioi Conference Seminar Room A on the 4th floor of Tokyo Garden Terrace Kioi-cho (online)
  • Agenda:
    1. Opening
    2. Presentation, Discussion
      • "' Relationship between Transportation and Other Fields' - Attempts at Logic and Data from the Perspective of Administration -" (Mr. Kondo, Mitoyo City Strategic Division, area Policy Department, Kagawa Prefecture)
      • "mobility from an Infrastructure Perspective" (Okamoto Member)
      • "JAMA's Trinity Approach to automated driving Level 4 Social implementation" (Hatano, Member)
    3. Adjournment

Conference Video

The conference is available on YouTube (Digital Agency official channel).

Materials

Minutes

Counsellor Asayama: Dear . My name is Asayama, and I have been taking over Mr. Suzuki's duties since July as Councilor. I believe you will be helpful in the future, and I look forward to working with you.

As it is on schedule, we will now hold the 4th "Study Group on the Ideal of' Mobility Roadmap'".

Mr. Murakami, the Director-General, is a little late, so I would like to say hello to him as soon as I come.

In addition, as I said, Mr. Hasui, Deputy Director, will also be in charge of this study group from this time, so I would like to introduce you.

This study group is live streaming. In addition, after the session, a video recording will be released on the Digital Agency website. Please be aware of this.

Then, Mr. Ishida, I would like to ask for your kind greetings.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

This is the fourth time, and thank you very much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to attend each meeting and discuss various matters.

Today, I received three hot topics from you again, and I would like to have a thorough discussion until twelve thirty. Thank you very much. I would like to start now.

If you are participating, please feel free to post your questions or opinions at any time during the Teams chat. Thank you very much.

I would like to move immediately to Agenda 2, "Presentation and Discussion." Mr. Kondo of Mitoyo City, Kagawa, would like to make a presentation.

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to Best regards

I would like to introduce Mitoyo City's efforts, "On the Relationship between Transportation and Other Fields - Attempts at Logic and Data from the Perspective of Administration -", which started last year. Thank you very much.

First, I would like to give you an overview of Mitoyo City in Kagawa prefecture.

Mitoyo City is a town that was established in January 2006 through the merger of seven towns on equal terms. It is located in the western part of Kagawa Prefecture in the Shikoku Region and covers 222 square kilometers, the second largest area in Kagawa Prefecture. It is called Mount Shiude in the lower left. The cherry blossom viewing spot that was featured in foreign media and Oyaga-hama in the lower right has been rapidly gaining popularity on social media for five years, and is now a tourist spot representing the prefecture that is visited by 500,000 people a year. It is a town rich in nature with such a peaceful rural area.

With regard to changes in the population, the percentage of elderly people, which is higher than the national average, and the birthrate are decreasing year by year. The population decline has also decreased by about 12000 people in the 16 years since the merger, which has had the impact of eliminating one of the pre-merger towns. Measures against the declining population have become an urgent Issue.

Since the merger, Mitoyo City has been a town without a central urban area. Therefore, we have been promoting the development of a multipolar distributed network without creating a compact city.

In response to the wishes of citizens who want to move freely and continue to live in the towns they are used to, we are making various efforts to realize the future ideal of connecting each base with various transportation networks.

In fiscal 2021, we formulated the public transportation Plan, and with the philosophy of "creating a town where you can go where you want to go when you want to go," we have started to consider the future from the perspective of full-scale town development and transportation.

This shows the current situation of public transportation in the city. First of all, there are two JR lines. There are six stations in total, and there is one route because there are two inhabited isolated islands. All bus companies in private sector have withdrawn.

(Suspension due to Incomplete Data Projection)

With regard to population trends, as I mentioned earlier, the birthrate is declining, and in 2016, the population has decreased by about 12000.

Since it was created as a result of a major merger of the Heisei, it does not have a central urban area. If that is the case, we will not make it a compact city, but aim to become a town with a multipolar distributed network. That is what we have been working on.

As I said earlier, there are citizens who want to continue to live happily in the town they are used to, and citizens who want to act according to their own wishes. Therefore, we are making various efforts to realize the future ideal of connecting the bases with various transportation networks.

Regarding the concept of transportation that supports the future of the city, we have set it in the public transportation Plan and are promoting policies.

As for the current situation in public transportation, there are two routes, JR Yosan Line and Dosan Line, and one route in a manned isolated island. All route buses in private sector have been withdrawn, but we operate 12 community bus routes in Mitoyo City. There are seven taxi companies in total.

This is a route map of community buses in Mitoyo City, like the Tokyo Metro. It seems to be complete at first glance, but if you look at it on a map, you can see that the range covered by route buses is limited in a large Mitoyo City. In fact, the bus stop is about 1 kilometer away from my house, and I can't go anywhere if I give up my car.

There are seven taxi offices in the city, but all of them are small, and drivers are aging, so the citizens are not able to provide sufficient taxi services.

This is a characteristic of Mitoyo City. It is rural or unique to the region, but cars are the prerequisite, and taxis are a luxury unique to the countryside. Therefore, it is known that the use of taxis by the elderly has not yet advanced, and it is difficult to get on community buses, so the movement Issue of citizens is still remarkable.

Then, in terms of what we will do in the future, I believe that it is necessary to provide self-help services such as Japan Railways (JR) and taxi operators, and to carefully respond to the moving Issue of area that connects places such as community buses, and that it is necessary to think that we will be able to do that through mutual assistance services.

Although it is more than half, there was this major premise. In the past, when the population was increasing and the market was expanding, private service in public service and area were also fulfilling, but from now on, services in area on the lower left will be decreasing. It will be difficult to maintain services for large companies and public service in Mitoyo City, and the safe and secure lives of the residents of area are extremely threatened, and we will be worried if things continue as they are. In the lower right, we would like to respond to the situation by providing services with the cooperation of area as I mentioned earlier.

This is the "Solution to the Issue of Town Movement," which is two initiatives related to transportation carried out under the Basic Infrastructure Project last year.

In the past, when we talked about transportation initiatives, the results of the initiatives were how many people used the transportation services while pursuing cost effectiveness and efficiency. However, we have decided to change our perspective and thinking here. What we did in the basic infrastructure project was to implement two projects last fiscal year based on the idea that mobile services could be effective in other fields.

The company that provided the service is Kurashi no Kotsu, Inc., which was created with the cooperation of area and private sector. We use the mobi app service, which is also available nationwide, and although it is limited to an area, we offer a fixed unlimited ride service in the city and an on-demand share transportation service.

Seikatsu no Kotsu was originally a joint investment of 13 companies inside and outside education and representatives who were aware of the Issue in the area field. It was a company that was launched as a truly cooperative effort. At the same time, the city is approaching the Issue solution.

We also checked what kind of effect it would be if we provided transportation services to students. Last year, the demonstration period was short, so the education effect was small. However, we conducted a questionnaire to parents and guardians, and we were able to grasp the Issue for transportation. In the future, we would like to take measures for the Issue to make a purpose on the education side.

Next, we measured the effect of the relationship between health and mobility for the elderly. We wanted to use mobi, but there is a Issue called the Digital Divide, and we actually used a taxi to demonstrate it.

We found that the number of opportunities to move the body actually increased when we collected data on how to use the service. As shown in the middle table, for the 17 demonstration participants, the data showed that they increased by an average of 1,100 steps per day. As there is an academic paper that shows that increasing the number of steps has an effect on medical care reduction, we confirmed that if we connect these results, there may be an effect on medical care cost reduction in the medium to long term. This is what we found out after actually doing it last year.

Now, I would like to talk about the future development of Mitoyo Basic Infrastructure.

In the basic infrastructure business, we have created two systems.

One is to create a mechanism to link the effects, combination effects, and evaluation data of multiple actors across fields.

The second is that we have created a mechanism to support the combination of businesses while using the foundation.

The first is the possibility of development. When we look at not only one project but also multiple operators in the entire area, we can see whether transportation services are sufficient and whether there is room for improvement. We can improve existing services and optimize the entire area by looking at the while measuring it properly. efficiency

Next, regarding the second issue of development, the direction of development is to consider how to combine and combine with fields other than mobility. It is known that in regions with small populations and small population densities, it is difficult to establish a transportation business alone as a business. Then, I believe that whether or not we can increase the added value and value of mobile services created through cooperation with other fields, co-creation between different industries, and mutual assistance efforts is the point of survival in maintaining services from now on.

In addition, I will explain how we would like to proceed in the future.

By utilizing data connections at the top, the entire efficiency and area of mobile services will be optimized, and mobile services will be enhanced and activated.

In addition, we know that increased mobility can create ripple effects through cooperation with other fields, and we can use data to achieve these effects. So far, as I explained earlier

Third, if mobility is improved, it is expected that the daily lives of citizens will be improved and the number of immigrants will increase. This is also expected to have a sufficient social impact.

With regard to mobility initiatives through mutual cooperation that can have a ripple effect on other services, it is conceivable that this will lead to an increase in the number of companies that want to do business together, invest in, or support the business, regardless of whether it is within or outside the region.

Fifth, if such investment creates an economic ripple effect in the entire area, the economic power of the area will increase, and there will be spare capacity to invest in mobile services in (1) at the top. We are looking forward to the creation of a virtuous cycle in which we will be able to achieve high added value and enhancement of existing services through further cooperation of services.

Finally, I would like to talk about our efforts for social impact in visualization.

Each of these is a visualization of the efforts we have made so far and the effects that represent the results. We call this the logic tree. Last year, when we measured and validation the effects of wellbeing in the Issue Gold Project, Mitoyo City created this on its own. I believe that there is a causal relationship between each of the efforts and the effects that show up in the results. For example, in the red box on the left side of the tree, which is called Transportation Infrastructure, the first effect that appears when the efforts are implemented is that it leads to changes in the lives of residents, as shown in the column B just to the right. The creation of movement and exchange leads to an increase in connections and roles, which further leads to changes in the conditions of neighboring residents. It leads to the prevention of dementia and frailty, and finally, D, on the right, leads to administrative impacts such as improvements in the well-being of citizens, decreases in medical care costs for the administration, and decreases in long-term care benefits. While actually collecting these data, I would like to advance validation and make efforts to determine whether there is really such a causal relationship.

As validation progresses, if we can obtain more and more data, we would like to be able to determine how much of the city's resources will be spent on the initiatives on the far left based on the administrative impact on the far right. While the financial situation is bad and it is difficult to allocate investment expenses, we can create a system that can provide financial support with a solid foundation. I believe this is Mitoyo City's EBPM in the transportation field.

Some of the ideas I just mentioned are difficult to understand, so I have made them visual in order to foster citizens' understanding of the long-term impact of our efforts.

In addition, from the three pillars of each area, green is health, pink is education, and yellow is industry, this is a visualization of how each initiative will eventually lead to a prosperous life in Mitoyo, which is in the middle, in the long run.

Based on such a future map, we have begun to take an approach to validation the effects of each initiative, and in anticipation of the social impact on the administration that I just mentioned, we would like to support cooperation initiatives, including mobile services.

This concludes my brief introduction to Mitoyo City's efforts. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.

Now that Mr. Murakami has arrived, I would like to say hello to him. After that, I would like to discuss with you. Thank you very much for your continued support.

Thank you.

Director-General: A few words. I wanted to introduce what you just said, and after this, I would like to introduce some pieces that seem to be related to infrastructure sharing.

Today, for the time being, I have prepared a separate sheet of paper on what kind of mapping will be the main points. In addition, depending on the situation, if I have to explain various matters to each ministry in the final round, there is a fear that it will be out of line, so I would like to consult with you. However, since it has been warmed up and the discussion has become lively, depending on the situation, I am thinking of adding one more time just for the summary. This is a place where various opinions are expressed and points are raised, rather than a consensus, so I would like to have a thorough consultation with Chairman Ishida, and on the premise that I will be guided by you in the end, I would like you to say what you want to say in the time. Thank you very much for your cooperation today.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.

Now, it is time for discussion. We would like to ask those who participate on the web to use the hand-up function. What do you think?

Mr. Koda, please.

Koda Member: Thank you, , thank you very much.

My name is Koda from AsMama Co., Ltd., which is engaged in area community development nationwide.

I have a question. First of all, I thought it was very interesting that this initiative did not focus on seven area. I believe that elderly people in Mitoyo City, which is aging, handed out taxi tickets. How did you apply for the subsidy? If there was no subsidy, I don't think it would have been used, so how did you go out? This is my first question.

I believe that you conducted a demonstration of the service using mobi this time. I believe that there are about 30000 people, including the elderly and children who are eligible for the service. I would like to know how many people are expected to use the service and how many people actually used it. I would like to know whether there was a gap between the hypothetical and validation stages. This is my second question.

Third, I would like to ask you about your thoughts on the reasons why the introduction of education, for example, in data connections and other areas, is certain to result in a deficit if only transportation is carried out, so I believe that the development of businesses that incorporate various industries will be an exit. I believe that you said that this part did not penetrate, but I would like to ask you about your thoughts on the reasons why it did not penetrate and why the situation in education was not fully communicated to the residents.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Could you give us your answer?

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to .

First of all, regarding the subsidy for taxi tickets, which covers seven area, in the last fiscal year, within the basic infrastructure project, we set a limit on the number of people to be transferred to seven business offices as a commissioned project. The upper limit is how many people can be transferred in each of the seven area, and what kind of transportation needs there are in the area field and over a wide area. Therefore, we utilized the Issue Fund of the basic infrastructure project, and used the funds to negotiate with taxi operators, and from there we worked to transfer the elderly.

In addition, regarding the fact that the target education of mobi did not penetrate, the number of elderly people and children is 30000, but we did not set up such a hypothetical area, so first of all, the target area of mobi is limited to the area of two towns in our country, so we wanted to set up an area in which movement related to education would be effective, and validation what would happen.

As stated in the materials, one of the reasons why it did not spread was that it was difficult to provide education content in area for the purpose of moving to education, and we would like to expand our efforts in such areas in the future.

Mr. Koda, could you repeat your last question, please?

Koda Member: Thank you, This is the difference between the expected number of users when mobi was introduced and the actual number.

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to , I had an assumption about how many people would use this area per day, but I'm sorry about the difference between the assumed number of users and the actual number, and I can't give you a detailed answer right away.

Koda Member: Thank you, .

By the way, did mobi users use it for free?

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to It was used for free during the period.

Koda Member: Thank you, .

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, What do you think?

Hello, Saito-san.

Mr. Saito: The story of mobility IPA. Thank you very much for your presentation.

I would like to confirm something. You mentioned the declining population earlier. In Issue, area, in that sense, there are stories about children's education and health. Basically, there are two stories: one is a story about reducing the total cost of social infrastructure as a whole, and the other is a story about increasing its value. In this talk about public help, in a sense, you should be able to understand how much it costs to use mobi as a whole. There are employees, or people who drive cars, and there is also operation and maintenance of infrastructure. When it is maintained, for example, the cost is a little too high relative to the income from users, so it is not possible to maintain it. First of all, in that sense, I think there is a story about reducing the total cost. In the current plan, you talked about various things, such as buses and taxis, but where are the parts where you are developing some measures to reduce the overall social cost?

You just talked about a compact city, so I would like to ask if you are thinking of an operation in which the cost of the infrastructure necessary for social life is reduced in total by reducing the cost of operating it while centralizing the infrastructure itself and summarizing something.

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to .

In the future, we are assuming that services, including mobile services, will be provided by subscription. Since administrative costs are not going down, it is difficult to improve the total cost reduction at once in such a wide Mitoyo City. In that sense, I have an image that the provision of various infrastructure services, including mobile services, will be unified, and the burden on citizens and service operation costs will be reduced through subscription.

Mr. Saito: The story of mobility 's suggestion. Basically, it is necessary to understand where and how the lives of the people and residents, who are on the demand side today, are moving, for example, if it is the movement of mobility. There is also so-called population dynamics, so how many years in the future will the people of today age and the children grow, and the use environment will change a little. While collecting actual data on how such dynamics will change, we will reduce the cost of infrastructure while assuming what kind of infrastructure will support the lives of the residents in total, including the operators preparing the next infrastructure.

You mentioned subscription earlier. If we use various data to provide optimal services, we should be able to visualize it and eliminate the waste we have now. If we do this properly, I think we can see a little more ahead. Please do your best.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.

Mr. Yamamoto of ITS Japan can hold up his hand. Please.

Member: I have two questions about last one mile, first one mile, and on-demand sharing of taxis.

First, as stated in the last slide, I believe that Mr. Mitoyo City has a place like the beautiful Salar de Uyuni that attracts a lot of people. What do you think about the way to get to visitors from outside, in particular, the first and last mile?

In addition, as Mr. Kondo mentioned earlier, it is quite difficult to share a taxi on demand, and once you decide on a route, you lose flexibility, and there are fewer and fewer taxi drivers. If you are going to cooperate there, have you ever considered community car sharing or private passenger transportation?

I would like to ask these two questions.

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to .

First of all, regarding your question about the last one mile and first one mile routes for tourists, this is exactly the Issue of Mitoyo City. As a public service of Mitoyo City, we do not offer that. Community buses are also suspended on Sundays, so we cannot offer a public service on Sundays when tourists come.

However, as Oyaga-hama Beach, such as Salar de Uyuni, which I mentioned earlier, has been developed, and the number of tourists has increased by 500,000. This time, not only mobi, but also private service, with the cooperation of private sector, and secondary transportation services have been provided, and I believe that such efforts will increase in the future.

The other question is whether or not you are considering paying for private transportation because it is quite difficult to share a car. Of course, I have introduced cooperation efforts that are being carried out only in private sector. On the other hand, the administration is also working to demonstrate shared taxis in underpopulated private sector, including cooperation with taxi operators for private transportation, in areas where it is difficult to go even with area's cooperation alone. In this regard, we are conducting simultaneous demonstrations on what the optimal movement is depending on the location of traffic and the target people.

That's all.

Member: Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, ?

In the order of Akimoto-san and Okamoto-san, please.

Acting Member Akimoto: Thank you very much for your explanation, Committee.

I am actually from Marugame City, Kagawa prefecture, and my wife is from Mitoyo. Looking at both towns, I think Kagawa prefecture is a area with a culture in which one person has one cart instead of one cart for each family. Under such circumstances, we would like to provide mobility to elderly people who have no means of transportation and improve their health. By improving quality, we will reduce the burden on the town. I do not know whether we will be able to increase profits or revenues by reducing the burden. In addition, I believe that there will be places where we cannot go any further by circulating to mobility. Under such circumstances, I would like to see a good shape be created somewhere by mobility for elderly people. I have high expectations for this.

In addition, with regard to education, which you mentioned earlier, I believe we must improve the quality of education we can provide within the region. In particular, there are many cram schools in Marugame and not many cram schools in Takatsu, so I believe that everyone will go to Marugame by train, so I believe it is better to consider improving the quality and content of education within the region.

Anyway, I'm counting on you, so please do your best. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Next, Mr. Okamoto, could you please?

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. Tokyo Electric Power Company Power Grid.

Thank you very much for your explanation. It was a very interesting initiative and very helpful.

I'm sorry to ask you this, but I think you gave out tickets to elderly people and asked them to take taxis. I may have missed your point, but if you ask elderly people to call you with a smartphone app, you can see your travel history on your smartphone, and you can also see how many steps you have taken on your smartphone. On the other hand, it is difficult for elderly people to hold a smartphone, and I thought that the start of digitalization was to let my mother hold a smartphone. I worked hard with my family, but it was successful, but it was quite difficult. I wonder how you are working on this.

One more thing, I think I'm looking at my parents. They seem to think that I have to work harder when I touch and listen to the stories of healthy elderly people. I'm sorry that it is different from the essence, but I would like to know if there is any ingenuity in such contact between elderly people.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , may I ask a question?

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to .

It is true that we are also in Issue, and in the explanation of the demonstration earlier, there were 17 participants. In fact, we wanted to increase the number of participants. We wanted to have 50 participants instead of 17, and we wanted to secure a larger budget. However, smartphones, which you just mentioned, and wearable terminals, which are wrapped around your arm and automatically acquire data such as the number of steps and blood pressures, will come to the briefing session, but we are afraid that the rental of wearable terminals will be monitored and various data will be acquired. There were many people who left the demonstration, and 17 people who understood and grasped such points participated in the demonstration. I think it is still a high hurdle to overcome the digital divide. In order to acquire data for the elderly, we need to provide explanations and improve the digital literacy of area as a whole.

In terms of how to secure healthy elderly people, on the other hand, there are various initiatives, but I would like to make a visualization by letting elderly people compete with each other, showing them how many steps I took today and how I was, and showing them the initiatives on health points, so that you are the best today and you are the best this month.

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. Thank you very much.

When I hear what you are saying, I think that there are some barriers for elderly people. But when I hear that it has become very convenient for someone to use it and that it is doing well, I think that elderly people around me will also want to use it. So, I thought that it would be great if you could expand it. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.

Member: I'm Suda from the University of Tokyo, University of Tokyo.

Thank you for your explanation. It was very interesting to hear your story.

I would like to ask you a question because I thought it would be a model initiative in various places if it was implemented in the multipolar distributed town development targeting high school students and younger and the elderly who do not have legs or licenses. I am a little interested in what kind of OD interval there is in the multipolar distributed town development. In particular, high school students, what kind of travel is it, and the distance. The last mile is a short distance such as 1.5 kilometers earlier, but I feel that it will be a considerable distance in the multipolar distributed town development. I would like you to tell me the actual situation around it. What do you think? Thank you.

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to .

In terms of distance, there are various modes for residents' lives and transportation. If you are elderly, you can visit a hospital or go shopping. Basically, since it is within the region, there are seven towns, so you can go to the nearest family doctor or the nearest supermarket. There is not much OD or travel distance, but some data shows that you can travel a considerable distance outside the region by using a community bus across the city.

High school students who do not have a driver's license basically go to high school, but there are three schools in the region. Of course, they go to other schools outside the city, so we know that there is a considerable distance between them.

Member: I'm Suda from the University of Tokyo, It means that you will travel quite a distance.

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to As I said earlier, there is no central urban area, so it is not that we concentrate there, and I feel that the travel distances are longer at each base.

Member: I'm Suda from the University of Tokyo, I understand. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, ? Please.

Director-General: .

For example, I would like to give an extreme example. Mr. Mitoyo City's document also happened to mention that food is scheduled to be shipped, so it is an example of a bucket maker when the wind blows. There is a area trading company called Drift Okayama in Okayama Prefecture, which bundles small farmers and ships them, but local Aeon and others entrust it to them. However, the point is not only that, but what Drift Okayama is doing is based on data, to farmers who do not plan production, it is reading back the demand for Aeon from the beginning, backcasting from there, and guiding them when and how much to cultivate, which is done in excel tables and transported by their own mini truck. That makes me cry, but in fact, I would like to have someone who is not me actually transport the mini truck, and I would like to have a business model for it, but I wonder if there is a combination of the second and third Drift Okayama and farmers who can follow it. Now, JA is actually interested in it.

Therefore, if we do not read the upstream, the point is that the case of the drifting Okayama Prefecture is also based on proper data, and we are teaching it to farmers who are not engaged in agriculture with an operating rate in mind. As a result, it is easy to understand. It is a model that is now being carried desperately by mini truck and is profitable because it is operated without warehouses. I don't know if it is a form of social impact, but if we look at the upstream with a little greed in a cross-sectional manner, I think there is a large amount of potential demand that has been neglected.

Looking at the traffic, people who still have a license but are not sure whether to return it or not. However, it is difficult to figure out how to bring the data, and it is easy to pick up and drop off children from the company's welfare facilities, but if you look closely, there is a hint in the middle.

For example, in the case of Mitoyo City, I think it would be good to look at people who stay at GATE. There are new projects that have come up with an operation cycle. The biggest problem for these people is that the cost of a hotel is more likely to be expensive than the cost of a part-time job. In addition, when you roll your car there one by one, it would be fine to go there if there was a public transportation. When you start going to area just once a week or once a month, it would be expensive to rent a car every time, so it would be better to have a public transportation. There are no people who want to go there, so it will be a long way away. I don't know if this is something we are going to do directly in this study group, but if you go back to the upstream a little bit and carefully look at it, you can actually read a lot of data, and you can read when and where travel demand will occur.

If we shift to a self-driving vehicle system, the concept of the occupancy rate will probably change even more. We don't need to think about increasing the occupancy rate of a place that operates regularly. If there is no one who uses it from 10:00 to 13:00 from the beginning, we can just leave it there and charge it. Although it is not such a time shift, if we think about operating it if we know it from the beginning, it will look a little different from bus operators and taxi operators. On the other hand, it is impossible for transportation operators to do all of this. If so, we will be able to create a system that collects such demands in the form of Mr. Mitoyo City's efforts. This is my awareness of the problem I asked Mr. Mitoyo City to talk about. I think that measuring social impact in well-being is a good way to discover. So, I would be grateful if I could add a perspective on digging up such demand data, or who should be made to do it, and who should be collaborated to design traffic demand well.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, To be honest, Mr. Murakami's story is quite difficult. I believe that ideas and data that can be used for them are being developed more and more. Therefore, how to use them is important. However, there are people who actually work, both people and shippers, who do not notice them because they do not have such services. I think it is really important to find and unearth demand for them.

In order for you to realize this, I would like to work with you to make the data platform that Mr. Mitoyo City is aiming for, such as page 25, a real implementation, scale demand, and be able to use it properly in EBPM, along with word-of-mouth and such good stories. So, I would like to take this opportunity to ask for your continued support. Thank you very much.

Mr. Kondo: Thank you very much for your visit to Thank you very much.

Director-General: , is that only one new demand is created systematically. In that case, it is called Minmanabi, where children are brought to a woodworking uncle and taught woodworking classes. In return, children are taught how to use mobile phones. So, they are both called education and education. Rather than that, it is a kind of citizen car service, and the operation manager is a taxi management company. If it looks like a citizen symbolically, there will be people who will raise their hands and ask if they can bring a health promotion class. Then, the number of drivers will increase, and high school girls and high school boys will use it to help them when they have no club activities to raise children. From the perspective of Kurohigashi Taxi, it was a drawback that it did not eat existing demand for taxis. But if I create one thing that is easy to understand, I do not see that there is such a service or that there are people who are willing to accept it. It seems that it is impossible to ask for a taxi or a public bus. I think I will study whether there is a way to do it.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, mobi, said that when I ran it in education, there was a lot of demand for lessons and lessons related to education, and there was a story that the profit structure was quite good. I heard that it is actually important to accumulate such small stories, and I thought that we should take into account not only public education but also various kinds of Kyushu and lessons for citizens.

So, now that we have finished discussing the first person, Mr. Kondo from Mitoyo City, I would like to ask Mr. Okamoto to give us a report on mobility from the perspective of infrastructure.

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. Then, I will explain using Material 5.

Best regards

There are three points that I would like to talk about today. In considering the entire infrastructure, I would like to talk about the possibility that electric power assets can be used unexpectedly. Next, I would like to talk about the fact that from our perspective, mobility's businesses actually have tremendous synergies. Finally, I would like to talk about carbon neutrality. We need to think about how to use infrastructure centered on people. In the end, there will be behavioral changes among customers. I would like to talk about how to create such changes and how to think about such devices.

Since it is already now, it is from the population bonus period on the left to the population online period, so I think that the importance of mutual assistance and sharing is already shared by everyone.

In terms of electric power assets, there are 50000 transmission towers and 6 million telephone poles. In area, where there are no telephone poles, you can see lunch boxes on the side of the road. There are about 50000 ground equipment for power distribution, 100,000 kilometers of optical fibers, and 1,700 substations and offices. This is more than the number of power assets in Japan.

In terms of how these things are currently used, for example, on the left side, utility poles can be used as 5G base stations, or can be used as places for security cameras, or ground equipment can be used as places for transmitting 5G radio waves, or can be used for digital signage. In addition, substations can be used for various communications equipment, servers, and co-location, so I think there may be infrastructure on the road side in the sense of mobility.
In mobility, if we consider the fact that automated driving is at Level 4, if we think that it will be quite difficult to use only sensors on vehicles, for example, if we think about the intersection at the intersection as shown in this picture, as shown in the picture, there is, for example, a telephone pole where both roads can be seen, and we attach sensors to it and communicate with it, so I think there is one image of cooperation in terms of safety or whether it can be used to realize automated driving.

Of course, in automated driving, there are various levels, such as whether to run on an unspecified route, a specified route, or on private land, as shown in the vertical axis, and whether to run completely unmanned or with manned assistance. The requirements differ depending on the use cases, but I think that the infrastructure on the road side can be applied to each scene.
I would like to talk about some examples of automated driving support. In our area, in Numazu City, Shizuoka Prefecture, there is a place where automated driving buses make a turn. We have installed sensors, cameras, and communication devices in the form of smart poles, as shown in the photo on the right, to monitor intersections and provide information on the approach of pedestrians and vehicles to buses. We are doing this together with Shizuoka Prefecture.

This is an example of Kansai Electric Power Company. It is Sanda City. We are also working to support bus drivers by using the sensor information of the Smart Pole, which is shown on the lower left, to make very effective use of various things such as notification of rushing out. This will lead to safety.

This is an initiative by Toyota City. At intersections without traffic lights, so-called smart poles are used. Sensors, cameras, communication devices, and LED display boards are attached here. The new smart poles monitor intersections. This is an initiative by Toyota City, so I think Toyota is taking the lead in this area. With these measures, I have mentioned three examples. I believe that smart poles can be used very well.

When we think about the infrastructure on the road side more generally, I think that the highest level is an unmanned automated driving. In general, we can say that a fixed-route bus can be used in various ways, because it runs in a certain place, and there is also a use cases to support the operation of manned vehicles.

Also, the intersection is an extremely important point, so I wonder what is there. There are various existing infrastructures, such as telephone poles, telephone poles of communication carriers, traffic signals, and street lights. If possible, we should use what we have quickly. If we don't have any, we should make a smart ball. We need to consider how to use various things well, and create sensors and other devices that can be used with a certain common specification. Otherwise, it will be completely useless to use telephone poles and telephone poles with different specifications. I think it is important to standardize and unify these.

When I think intersections are extremely important, I would like to have discussions on the functions provided by intersections in the future mobility Working Group. For example, as you can see on the right, it is extremely important to consider how to include the functions of spots at intersections, such as shelter, automated driving bus guidance, safety apps, and others. I would like to have discussions on these points.

Turning to the subject, I would like to talk about mobility from the perspective of power transmission and distribution companies.

First of all, the automated driving bus project in area alone cannot be realized. As you can see on the right, the ideal form is a combination of various values. Among various things, since we are an energy company, we would like to make efforts to decarbonize the area. I would like to focus on this point.

The point is, as I will explain in the future, since EVs are running storage batteries, I believe that the basic concept is to use renewable energy from area as a running battery for local production for local consumption.

This is the conceptual diagram. First, the basic idea is to digitally integrate the three networks, and I think this will create the foundation for so-called co-creation.

On the left side is the so-called mobility Network, where EV buses and EV shared taxis run. There are also rapid charging, various charging points, and car-sharing stations. The EV that came to the charging infrastructure is actually a running storage battery. When viewed from the lower side of the power network, it is the same as being running and moving as a power source in the power network.

On the upper right, if you think about your home, you actually have a smart meter, a power distribution board, sunlight, a water heater, and so on, and if you can park an EV in your home, there is an EV charger in your home. On the right side, there is also an information channel, from which you can collect various customer-related data, as well as the mobility Network and the Electric Power Network, but in the end, I think it is very important to be at the intersection of these networks. So, I think it is important to accumulate data well and to fuse these three networks as much as possible.

The decarbonization effect of shifting to EVs. In our case, we have 3,600 business vehicles, so we have tentatively calculated the expected effect of shifting to EVs. However, since this calculation is based on the use of renewable energy, it can be said that a certain effect can be expected in that case. In addition, since renewable energy is used, there is a surplus problem of renewable energy, and it does not match the supply and demand of electricity. However, since charging is performed at the timing that matches as much as possible, I think it will be useful for increasing renewable energy.

We actually conducted a simulation of 2050 a long time ago. If we do it now, various assumptions will change. I would like you to take a look at an example. This is a simulation of the supply and demand in Japan in 2050. It is a pattern in which you use a week's worth of electricity. You use a large amount of solar and wind power. As you can see, you do not use much electricity on Sundays and Saturdays, and you use a large amount of electricity from weekdays to Mondays and Fridays because it is a hot summer week. Only wind power and solar power, and nuclear power are added as base power sources. Since they do not match demand, how can we adjust them? In this simulation, assuming that 40 million EVs are installed and 30% of them are connected to the power grid, we assume that solar power may or may not generate electricity. We believe that solar power can be absorbed by charging and discharging electricity there.

We currently have a storage system called pumped storage power generation, but it is an order of magnitude more storage than pumped storage power generation. If we can do this, we will be able to use renewable energy and help decarbonization.

The timing of EV charging and discharging may not be that easy, but since solar power generation increases between 9:00 and 16:00, it is good to charge the EV according to the time zone and discharge the EV during another time zone. Even if the EV does not discharge the EV, it is good to use the EV as little as possible. In order to do this, it is necessary to change the behavior of the EV driver. However, in the case of an EV bus, the operating time is relatively fixed, so we are considering whether it is possible to use the EV during the daytime.

In considering this, this map is a graph of the current network congestion situation at our company. The red areas are often times when the network is already congested. If you look at it, the northern Kanto area and the Pacific coast are red. The reason is that there is a lot of sunlight in there, and the electricity from solar power generation is flowing back from area. The flow of the electricity flowing back is causing congestion. If we were to multiply them, from our point of view, the consolidation of supply and demand by mobility is very effective in places where such congestion is occurring. Therefore, if area's Issue wants to solve Issue in mobility, it would be good to do various things there first. I think that would be the point of focus.

This is for your reference. I thought that such a thing would be automatically done by blockchains or decentralized transactions in the future. I wrote the picture on the left in a book a long time ago. I don't think MOBI will be confused with today's story. There is a global initiative called the Mobility Open Blockchain Initiative, which is promoting the standardization of various distributed information transactions related to mobility, such as vehicle IDs. Now, there is a problem of battery passports, so how to keep history and so on. I think that blockchains are very good. MOBI seems to be quite active globally. If there is such a thing, it is easy to use it. In fact, I think that if I use it, I can easily make a implementation for a picture I drew on the left side.

Finally, relationships with people must eventually lead to behavioral change. If we can encourage behavioral change by linking mobility and human behavior, and effectively use EVs to promote decarbonization, I think it would be good to aim for three way cooperation from various points of view, such as customers, area, and infrastructure operators like us. To that end, I think it is necessary to create a mechanism to create prosperity by acquiring people's flow information and transmitting information, as I will say later.

As I draw in this picture, it is written that if we could move an EV bus from a place where people gather, charge the bus well at noon to use solar power well, recommend the use of EVs that can obtain charging information and travel logs as a means of touring area, and move to the final point by EV bus in the evening, it would be a three way street. In addition, I am thinking that a multifunctional pole could be used for people's flow and data acquisition.

This is also a point that I would like to have you discuss again in the future. To create a lively atmosphere, we will centralize various EV mobility here by using a mechanism such as a roadside cafe or marche. This is the image shown in the picture on the left. By creating such a thing, people will gather and EV mobility will gather, and the necessity and feasibility of installing EV stations and multifunctional poles will increase. This is because when such things gather, everyone will gather here in the event of a crisis, and there will be batteries, and it will be an information transmission base, so it will be very useful for resiliency. In short, I think we should create Nigiwaihiroba and make it a hub of mobility. On the contrary, I think it would be good to consider that people will also gather there because it is a hub of mobility.

In terms of contributing to the decarbonization of area, I think it would be very good if we could connect as much as possible to the matching of supply and demand by comprehensively linking the picture on the upper right with the supply and demand of electricity generated by photovoltaic power generation in area or its vicinity.

Finally, in summary, although it has been a little longer, we believe that it is true that the population is decreasing, and that cooperation and sharing between the public and private sectors and various industries is necessary as a way of doing business and infrastructure. I believe that automated driving will be approached by making good use of electric power facilities as roadside infrastructure.

In addition, from our perspective, we would like to promote the carbon-neutral use of area. In public transportation, the fact that EVs are used when automated driving is used makes it easier to use renewable energies, and as a result, it is expected to be carbon-neutral. We would like to aim for such a use.

The last point is that in the end, customer behavior is the starting point, so mobility is also involved in this, and power supply and demand data is also linked to encourage behavioral change. Odawara City is conducting experiments to encourage behavioral change by using gamification for tourists. While doing this, I think it would be good if we could create value instead of treating area's decarbonization as a cost.

That's all from me.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.

Then, I would like to have a discussion.

Please start with Dr. Suda.

Member: I'm Suda from the University of Tokyo, University of Tokyo. Thank you very much for your explanation.

Thank you very much for your very encouraging comments. Actually, we are in the middle of introducing infrastructure cooperation to the automated driving Bus in Kashiwanoha, a project called "RoAD to the L4" by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism. We are discussing various ways to create an ecosystem. I would be very grateful if TEPCO could join us.

So, I have two questions and comments. One is that you can use the assets of an electric power company. Is it correct to say that you can use utility poles specifically? Or is it possible to consider more specific things such as sensors?

One more thing. In terms of EVs, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism recently adopted a project to embed non-contact power supply coils in roads in Kashiwanoha, and there are talks now about actually embedding coils at intersections. I believe that there are talks about connecting EVs and electric power in quite a few ways, not just charging stations, so I would like to ask your views on this.

Best regards

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. , thank you very much. I would be grateful if Kashiwanoha could accompany you.

Although there are certain restrictions on the use of telephone poles, we would like them to be used as effectively as possible. We are considering how to use them in a way that has as high a value as possible because the space for telephone poles is limited if various things are attached blindly. For example, we are considering a Issue called 5G. If we attach as many radios and antennas as there are carriers, there will be no space. So, we will share all of them. We will concentrate baseband units on the use cases side, and we will share them so that they can be used by any mobile phone company. We are considering sharing what we share so that we can increase the value of each telephone pole as much as possible. However, basically, we would like them to be used as well as possible, and I think it would be very good if they could be used while integrating them.

In addition, you mentioned contactless power supply for roads. This is also a case-by-case approach, and there are places where various things are buried in the road. For example, there are places where ground equipment, which I showed you earlier, is buried underground, and there are electric wires. In any case, electricity itself is always located along the road, so how to bring it there will be determined. So, although it is a case-by-case approach, I think it will be very good if these things can be used well.
That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, I would like to ask you about the occupancy of the current telephone pole. Aren't the conditions for permission for occupancy strict? Is there a possibility that it will be quite complicated if I add a lot?

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. First of all, it was originally intended for use in the electric utility industry. For example, it is not possible to exceed a certain weight. However, in places that are currently vacant, there are a relatively large number of cable TV cables, optical fibers, and so-called wired lines in the past. If a certain standard or constraint is met in a certain range, it will be used.

However, as a result, when people see telephone poles on the street, they are actually riding on them blindly. If they are to be used properly, I think it is better to organize them properly. I am not necessarily optimistic about the current status of the development of rules, but I think it will be necessary to develop such rules in the future.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.

MURAMATSU Member: Thank you for your presentation. I am Muramatsu of the Robofre Institute.

Two comments. I think we are proceeding with the same concept. To be specific, in your earlier talk, you mentioned that infrastructure development will accelerate mobility sharing, and we are also proceeding with the same thing indoors. It started with the word "robot-friendly," and it is an initiative to make it easier to introduce robots by changing the environmental side. As you announced earlier, by attaching cameras and sensors to power poles, automated driving will be able to be introduced more easily, and we will be able to reduce the introduction cost for users.

In addition, the mobility hub that you talked about at the end, I think part of it is related to places like Nakariya, so I would like to work with you. I would like to talk about one thing in detail, but we are thinking of chargers in Issue. The specifications of chargers differ depending on robot manufacturers, and if we want to create a hub function like this, there will be 10 chargers of various types lined up side by side. This is not the reality like Company A, Company B, and Company C, so I wonder if you can successfully standardize or cooperative areas it, and make it a win-win. I would like to ask for your continued support.

Thank you very much.

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. .

I heard that the story of the robot and the story of the outdoors or mobility are just about where the space to move is, so I thought they would be the same problem in the end. In that regard, there are many common points, so we would like to learn about them.

Then, in the end, it will be a matter of how to charge the battery. As you say, it will not work if there are various things, so I think it is very likely that the battery will be standardized to some extent if the mobility is small. In the case of passenger cars, the battery is customized to suit the design of the passenger car, and standardization of the battery seems to be difficult. In the small mobility to be developed in the future, four motorcycle manufacturers have already standardized the specifications of the battery. Therefore, the battery can be used not only for motorcycles but for various things, and people who use two batteries instead of one can use two batteries. If such a battery is placed in a city like a charging station, it can be used for energy management. Therefore, I am thinking about whether it is better to use the battery together with the use of the charger, especially in the case of the small mobility.

We would like to learn many things from you. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

Mr. Hidaka, please raise your hand.

Hidaka Member: I'm Hidaka from MaaS Tech Japan. Please excuse me from online.

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Okamoto.

I have just heard your presentation. On pages 22 and 23, from the perspective of the connection between mobility and people, the mobility Hub, and MaaS, I think this is a very useful initiative. In addition, various expanded uses are expected, although I may not have mentioned them in detail because they are presentation materials.

We are now using demand transportation in various regions, but with the multipolar distributed system, the number of vehicles will be insufficient if we try to increase the operating rate or meet the needs of users. On the other hand, if there is road construction, it will be impossible to stop there or pass through the road, so it will be necessary to take measures on the demand side, and the implementation will change. Although it is detailed, it will also cost a lot in such a area.

As for the mobility Hub, it is not possible to maintain wide-area transportation only by demand. As mentioned earlier, if demand is to be combined well with trunk line transportation to a certain extent, a mobility Hub is necessary, and considering that it cannot be done by mobility operators alone, I thought that how to organize it in MaaS or a comprehensive transportation system is extremely important in the concept of a mobility Hub. Therefore, I thought that it would be good if the road map was discussed and how this will be connected to various things was described in the road map.

At the same time, although the combination with electric power will have an external effect in the form of a cross-sector effect of traffic data, I believe that this Study Group will take a broader perspective and make a significant contribution to how to reduce the total cost and marginal cost of social infrastructure, mainly in rural areas. There is also how to apply such a model, and I was not able to visit Kyushu today because I am going on a business trip to Kyushu. As you know, in Kyushu, due to the heavy rain disaster, some road infrastructure has been converted to BRT, and some roads have collapsed. When a disaster occurs, there is basically electricity and transportation infrastructure. So, as in the case of a disaster, when lifelines are disrupted until recovery from a disaster, it is of course fine to use such infrastructure for a few hours until recovery, but if construction is involved, it may take several months or even a year or two. I therefore came to see how to maintain the living infrastructure in such a place is an extremely important perspective in Japan, which has many disasters.

I learned a lot about your presentation, so I hope we can continue to learn about it.

That's all.

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. .

If you could say that to Mr. Hidaka, who has been working on MaaS for a long time, I thought that what we are doing would be a little useful, so I was very grateful, so I would like to join you in various ways. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please go in the order of Mr. Koshizuka and Mr. Koda.

Koshizuka Member: Koshizuka.

Thank you very much for your presentation.

I was very interested in hearing that there are various ways to share and unify at the infrastructure level, and that there are various initiatives. When I was introduced to this kind of sharing today, I felt a dream that there are so many things that can be done. At the same time, however, when I listened to this kind of sharing talk from morning to night because of mobility and other things, I thought that sharing is divergent. For example, if there are n elements and sharing, if you do each one, you can do n factorial sharing. So, there are so many sharing patterns, and if there are n elements, you have to make them into n / 2, but in reality, I feel that we are moving toward n factorial sharing. I really felt the impression that the meaning of sharing is actually sharing when I look at each one, but when I look at the whole thing, it is just a combination explosion.

For example, in the road side infrastructure on page 11, if it is written like this, I think that there are various things built on the ground, and I think that I can't do what I say because it is unrealistic, but maybe it is better to have only one type of thing built on the ground. Usually, elementary school students think so. We are adults, so we do various things, but elementary school students choose the same one. If there are signals and electricity, everyone does so, but I feel that the number of types will increase more and more, but if I want to do that, I think I have to go into it to some extent, and I think I have to think carefully about which area is the appropriate place to drop off.

On page 15, I felt it very much. Certainly, important networks here are the power network of electricity, the communication network, and the mobility network. Until now, power and communication have been in the form of smart grids, and various cooperation between the two is being tried. Communication and mobility are being done in the form of MaaS. When the world of EVs comes out, power and mobility will be. So, I think we need to combine the three. For each of the three, mobility and mobility have large business entities such as railways and buses, and there is also a large business entity for electricity. I think it is impossible to achieve a combination explosion. I am not asking a question, but I think it is the responsibility of the government in that sense. I am very much concerned that if we do not do a considerable amount of work, including the decompensation of regulation and the industry, it will simply be a combination explosion. I think I need to do something about it.

That's all.

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. .

It is true that there will be aspects that you say, and that is why I believe it is extremely important to have this "Mobility Roadmap" integrated into the national government.

On page 12, functions that should be placed at intersections are listed from (1) to (8), and if we map them on the existing infrastructure, it is true that they seem to be very blindly located, but in reality, I think that if we proceed, unnecessary functions will be thinned out. In that sense, I wrote that I would like to have discussions at the mobility Working on the realization of functions with as little infrastructure as possible, and I thought that it would be good to have such discussions and make it as simple as possible.

Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

Koda Member: Thank you, Thank you for the very interesting lecture.

As a company that already has infrastructure platforms throughout Japan, I would like to ask several questions from the perspective of consumers, while thinking that there is a possibility of a very new way of mobility and infrastructure if it is put into practical use.

On page 6, it is about safe driving in a declining population and safe driving in automated driving vehicles. It is close to the commonality of diversity that Committee Members Muramatsu and Koshizuka mentioned earlier. I would like to know how you are thinking about whether you are trying to unify the vehicle side that can receive sensors when many automated driving vehicles cars start driving, and whether the infrastructure side is trying to diversify into the variety of automobile reception. I think there will be a difference between the two sides of automated driving vehicles, which are equipped with a control device that receives sensors and stops automatically, and the one that simply receives information through an app. In that case, although it is a premise that accidents do not occur, I thought about page 6 that the speed of implementation will probably be different depending on whether the control function or the way of communication of safety information is better to have or must to have and how to position it.

Next, I would like to ask you about how to make area a sustainable service on page 14. You said that the burden of expenditures for vehicle maintenance and route infrastructure is heavy, and that we would like to put this into practical use by converting it to an EV. In the first place, what is the percentage of automated driving that does not progress because it is not an EV? I would like to know how much the so-called cost-performance will be improved by converting it to an EV. I do not think that a very large amount of revenue can be expected even if expenditure and revenue are balanced to some extent by converting it to an EV. Therefore, regarding the automated driving bus project, do you think that private sector should bear the burden and private sector should take the lead? The section on funds says that this project should be funded by the public. Please tell us if you have any thoughts on whether it is desirable to make it a hybrid joint venture.

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. .

I think it would be better to answer from the end first.

As for funding, it is difficult to think about specific things, and I think it will end up being a hybrid as shown on page 14. However, I think it will depend on how much value can be raised and the cost can be lowered at that time, but I think it will basically be a hybrid.

Going back, due to the relationship between automated driving and the transition to EVs, I don't have a quantitative answer, and I'm going to give you a very sensible answer, so it may not be accurate. But I'm an electrical engineer, and the motor as a control target has very good control performance, very high accuracy, and good response. If you want to automate it as usual, it will probably be much better than an internal-combustion engine. I'm sorry, I think people who are mechanical engineers will be very angry. If you think as a control engineer or an electrical engineer, you can control a motor by using an inverter, but as a control target, it has very high accuracy, good response, and torque, and it is very easy to control. If you think in that sense, it will be much better for automated driving. However, I'm sorry that I don't have a quantitative answer now.

In addition, as you mentioned on page 6, I think that all the communication specifications for applications differ depending on the use cases. If you want to prevent collisions, communication will be very low-latency. If you depend on it for security, it may be that communication itself should not be stopped. Or if you want each other to collect traffic information and let you know that there is a traffic jam around here, communication will be very slow. Depending on the situation, it may be that it is okay to stop. So, the communication specifications required for each use cases are for delay, and the level of reliability is very different. Even if we say communication for the same mobility, I think it is completely different. As you said, I think that kind of arrangement is certainly necessary.

First of all, I don't know much about communication in mobility, but I think there are some standards, and I don't think there are many of them in each mobility. I think they are summarized in several patterns, so I don't think it is necessary to unify the provision of information from the roadside infrastructure side according to the patterns, but I think it is impossible to respond to the situation if there are many of them.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.

Mr. Saito: The story of mobility , thank you very much.

There is talk of automated driving as a digital lifeline, and TEPCO is using drones for steel tower inspections, but I think this is the favorite. You just talked about infrastructure in mobility, but in reality, there are distribution, buses, taxis, and private cars that are used there, and there are talks about how to move them in response to demand in each area, even locally. It is probably essential to talk about how to invest in power infrastructure, for example, and how to manage energy using EVs in the world using EVs in the future. If we are talking about carbon neutrality by 2050, we must realize the current green innovation. We have to start it or we won't make it in time. Therefore, I think we have already entered an age in which we can think about the next infrastructure without EVs. So, I would like to talk about the future of automated driving with the addition of mobility with the current digital lifeline. What kind of mobility and power infrastructure should we consider toward so-called green innovation? Not the whole thing, but for each business operator in each area, for example, demand response, I would like to consider whether it is good to set up navigation as a business. Therefore, I would like to ask for your cooperation.

Earlier, Mr. Koshizuka said that there are infinite combinations when sharing, so I would like to make a comment. For that purpose, we, DADC, will invest in the architecture and perform comprehensive operation of the system. We will make it so that we can cooperate comprehensively no matter how many sharing systems there are, so I would like to avoid such concerns. I would like to have Mr. Koshizuka talk about unifying the architecture, so please do so.

Okamoto Member: Thank you, Mr. .

Exactly as you said, I also forgot to say that architecture is handled by Saito-san, so I just remembered, but in the end, that's what it is. Thank you for having to start with architecture and for advertising the drones project. I couldn't include drones today, but we are watching drones, which uses our equipment, as well as early harvest. For the time being, the first thing is how efficiently we can inspect the infrastructure. Our workers are decreasing rapidly, so we can do that, and that is something that infrastructure operators can work together on. However, as you said, due to the 2024 problem, I think there is a place called drones, which is the automated driving of mobility, where distribution is most necessary, so we want to do our best to achieve that. We also want to combine energy management with it. As Saito-san said, this is not the time to relax. However, I think we have already prepared a lot of materials, so I think we will speed up from here. I think we must increase the speed. I would like to ask for your guidance.
Yes, please.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Go ahead.

Director-General: has been with us for a long time, and the young people behind him have been studying with us for more than one and a half years. There are two things.

Barcelona and other places where so-called smart cities is said to be advanced use crime prevention infrastructure. In other words, since there is no infrastructure depreciation cost for crime prevention infrastructure, services are provided on top of it, and the moment the crime prevention infrastructure becomes unreachable, the cost cannot be recovered, and the smart cities menu stops there. In Barcelona, smart bus stops, garbage collection, crime prevention, and so on, are all road infrastructure controlled by the police, and the first development is carried out in four Israeli cities. I think that the National Police Agency may have heard about it, but in the case of Japan, when it seems that it is difficult to do so, I personally think that one strategy is to use the infrastructure already owned by wide-area operators by replacing it, although I don't know whether the Japanese model is only for electric power. On behalf of the area, I have been talking to Mr. Toden about various things, but if the story spreads, when I hear that the general public knows the difference between telephone poles and telegraph poles, children usually start with "What?" and say that the ground laws are different.

The second point is a logical answer to the divergence story pointed out by Dr. Koshizuka. There are two things. One is the meaning of infrastructure share. Whether or not Mr. Okamoto is so committed, I will say that in order to achieve the ideals in the first sentence, the necessary antenna and other matters are extreme. I think it is good to use the balance sheet of Tokyo Electric Power Company and think about whether to install a tax system or what to install from a policy perspective. However, there are two types of infrastructure sharing. One is to rent a place and use it at a low price. The other is to own the equipment and use it. In Europe, we studied communication infrastructure sharing. In the case of France, it is relatively clear that the latter includes broadcasting. However, we will organize the system a little more properly, and if there are any questions about the range of equipment that can be owned by an electric power company, we will organize them, and if possible, we will bring it to a state close to the same analogy as the state having security equipment and allowing it to be used, I think that not only electric power companies but also railway companies will probably get on board.

Then, in the latter part of the discussion, we need to summarize what is diverging somewhere. For example, in the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifeline, it is called Smart Takoashi. All of those keywords are actually hooked, but everyone is interested in what the function of takoashi is, but they don't know much about it. For example, if you want to put a hook on something that can be aggregated there, or if you want to change behavior in the same way, I think Nigiwaihiroba is quite interesting. The other day, on the way back from a temple for a memorial service for a friend, there is a place where you can walk on the second floor of Ueno Station, but quite a few people gather there. If we do not directly connect the part where people accumulate in reality and the part where people accumulate in terms of equipment, but instead bring it into an n-to-1-to-n composition, we may be able to see sharing points that can be profitable.

Since there is no logical answer, we have no choice but to make a final decision. However, I believe that this will be one of the major issues to be discussed in Mobility Roadmap. If we can see the future of consolidation there, we will be able to see capital investments that can be practically amortized in terms of capital investments and the flow of people. I would like to raise the issue of sharing and how we can find a place where we can hook up somewhere.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, This mobility hub is already doing this, for example, in Saitama city. It will start with the arrival of many Marche and catering car, and it will be profitable soon. How will bus operators use their business offices and garages? It is a dirty place because not many people go there. Trunk line buses want to use it as a terminal and provide AI demand services from there, but they don't make connections easily, so how to make it attractive is about to start. I think it is very important to make it more advanced. That is one thing.

This is the second slide. Regarding the 12th slide, it would be nice if it were possible, but there is a price tag, so I don't think it would scale. I am a little bit of a deluge, but how to cut costs, and how to pursue safety, liveliness, and convenience for these problems, European cities and American cities have begun to take an approach that is not like this, and they are achieving considerable results, so I don't know how to position them. Please tell me again.

My third question is about how to understand the flow of people. As was the case with Mr. Kondo in Mitoyo City earlier, I think this actually involves a very big problem. So, there are data that the government is collecting now. We are conducting person trip surveys on the flow of people, road traffic censuses on the flow of automobiles, public transportation in major cities, and distribution. Basically, this is a survey method that relies on people's memories. What is it? They write it down on paper and ask where they went from. As expected, recently there have been an increasing number of cases where paper is not used, but when I say what DX is doing, it is a situation where it is input on the web.

There is a lot of mobile data in various places. It is not only the government but also the private sector and various mobility services. How to integrate such data is an extremely important theme. If we cannot obtain such detailed and granular data, we may not be able to grasp new problems, Issue, and demand. As I said earlier, paper data is collected once every 10 years or once every 5 years. I believe that such a matter requires major reform. Thank you.

Koshizuka Member: I would like to ask a question. If you really want to realize such a thing, for example, I feel that Tokyo Electric Power Company must ultimately operate the bus. Is it okay to operate the transportation company itself now due to the regulations? For example, in the case of MaaS, for example, if a communication company subscribes to it. Is it possible to do a business that combines the subscription and the commuter pass subscription? It is probably difficult, so if the business of the end user is not integrated, for example, gas and electricity are considerably integrated in the place where they are collected. It is possible between energy companies, but when we pay for the same thing from the customer's side, is it possible to pay for transportation and electricity, and electricity and railway payments at the same time? If there is such a business, I think we will become unified based on economic principles. However, all of them are cut vertically, and if we are told that we cannot do so due to business relations, it will end up as a picture, so I feel that it will be possible to destroy them to what extent.

Director-General: Electric. We do telecommunications. NTT Finance is also acting as a collection agent for various charges. I think it's because the liberalization of charges was quick, so it's been done that far ahead.

In the case of electric power, I think you will know more about this. If you do not carefully examine it, the range of electric power rates and the link between them and expenditures are still strictly observed. I don't think it will be easy, but I feel that there may be things that can be done under the current system if off-balance sheet transaction is done and ideas are devised by another company. But rather than that, I think it is NTT Finance that is doing so much, so electric power should be able to be done, and I think it is OK to think about it including institutional reform.

Mr. Saito: The story of mobility , I would like to add that we are trying to prepare a public platform as an extension of the data connections platform that METI is talking about. We are trying to create an environment where various data can be shared publicly. Not everyone can see it, but only people who work together with the service can see it. However, it is not one manufacturer that has it individually, and unless we put a public platform in the middle and make it possible to handle so-called public data, we cannot optimize it as I said, so we are talking about creating such a domain.

It is still a future story, but unless we make it possible for each company to arrange their own data somewhere or make it uniform, in a sense, the so-called Japanese companies will not be able to handle the data that various GAFAM platform operators originally have. After all, such a thing is necessary. Everyone says it is a response to GAFAM, but is it to create a company like GAFAM or to create a service like GAFAM? I am talking about the creation of a public platform that will be a group of companies with a total market capitalization of, for example, more than 100 trillion yen, and I need to talk about an architecture in such a way, so I would like to advance such a thing in the so-called overall architecture of digital lifeline, and it is related to personal data, which is the current public data, including information on cars, but it will be difficult unless Digital Agency takes the lead.

This is how we can use it in the event of disasters. In the event of disasters, if emergency response switches to the use of personal data, emergency response can be done immediately, so I would like to ask Digital Agency to do that rather than the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. Thank you.

In addition, I would like to say one more thing I wanted to say earlier. It is n to 1 to n. In a sense, it is not a modular structure, but unless it is made in a distributed manner, it is difficult to do n to n in the end, and modular structuring is necessary. Then, there is a story of making n into 1 and returning it to n. One is a story like a hub, and the other is a story like a backbone line, for example, an expressway is a story where everyone shares the area of 1. Probably, it is necessary to build with such a modular structure in mind. When you say modularization, I think you think of manufacturing modules and software modules for everyone, but we are thinking of building future infrastructure in a modular structure. We want to create a concept in which if we create one in a area, multiply it by n, and create a form that can be deployed nationwide, for example, by early harvest of digital lifeline, and connect them using the same model, it will be completed soon. This is also a systematic story, so I think it is probably difficult without Digital Agency people. Thank you.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.

I would like to do no more than this. Thank you very much. Nice to meet you, Mr. Hatano.

Member of Hatano: Thank you for your introduction, I am Hatano of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association.

Last time, Mr. Yamashita of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA) talked about business. Today, since I belong to the Safety Technology and Policy Committee, I am talking about technology. I think this will be a watering hole in the very lively business-oriented discussion. However, I would like to take a moment to talk about it.
The development of systems related to automated driving is progressing smoothly through public-private cooperation. As you all know, in April of this fiscal year, the Road Traffic Act was revised to allow Level 4 automated driving trains to be operated under specific conditions, and the Road Transportation Act was also revised to include details on legislative standards. Level 4 trains can be used as service cars, which is an extremely leading situation internationally.

Against this backdrop, automated driving will coexist in the transportation society. From the perspective of sharing the society with vehicles other than automated driving and traffic participants, I would like to review how the driving environment related to automated driving that you have prepared so far has been developed. As I mentioned earlier, there are four road laws, including the Road Traffic Law. They are the Road Vehicles Transportation Law, the Road Transportation Law, and the Road Law. Until now, I believe that automated driving, which is on the left side, has been built on the idea that it will work hard to follow the rules and ensure safety.

On the other hand, as I mentioned earlier, automated driving is not the only transportation society. From the perspective of coexisting with the surrounding transportation participants, I put the transportation environment in the middle, and on the right side, I write "people" who use it. However, when I think about the surrounding transportation participants, I think there are still many discussions.

As it is written in the upper part on the right side, I believe that coexistence, such as the development of public infrastructure and the observance of traffic rules by local traffic participants, is an extremely important key.

First of all, speaking of traffic environments on the previous page, in the case of further enhancing self-help driving environment development, when trying to ensure safety, the item of how to make a validation, which is described as a testing scenario, is extremely explosive. It is very important for social validation to categorize and simplify this and to limit what must be made a implementation to a finite range.

Next, there is a need for a platform where discussions can be held to clearly share with society the extent of the functional limitations and what else is necessary. It will also be necessary in the future to discuss what to do in the event of an unexpected event.

In addition, in terms of the expected part of the idea of mutual assistance, if automated driving is quite difficult, we should consider a dedicated area. In the example of the intersection I mentioned earlier, as you mentioned in the information from Tokyo Dentetsu, I think that driving separately from nearby traffic participants and people will sufficiently improve safety. It is possible to consider using digital technology to cooperate, such as separating traffic signals from pedestrians and vehicles and creating right turn signals individually. Basically, as shown in the fourth part, if pedestrians and bicycles follow traffic rules as usual, safety is almost guaranteed. How can we share this basic idea? I think it is surprisingly effective.

I believe that it will be very important for the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association to clarify what can and cannot be done and who will support area society in improving its traffic environments, and to make efforts so that discussions can be shared, in order to aim for a social implementation.

Against this background, the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA) has now started a three pronged initiative to deal with "people," "cars," and "traffic environments" toward a Level 4 social implementation. In order to achieve a broader social implementation of automated driving while giving top priority to safety, it is necessary to move from a "car-centered" approach to a three pronged initiative, and to that end, we are currently considering an action plan on how to address the three as a whole after extracting Issue for each of them. As an image, I believe it is desirable that "people," "traffic environments," and "cars" cooperate with each other to firmly protect safety, as shown in the picture at the bottom.

Based on this, we have established a study group called the automated driving Task Force in the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association. I am the leader of the group. The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry has shown seven classifications and four types. Among them, D and E are mainly considered as regular systems. As shown in the figure on the lower right, there are many and few safety measures for the traffic environment. In addition, there are three space conditions: management space, separation space, and mixed space. As shown on the left, examples of business forms are temporarily placed in each of the three space conditions. Based on these examples, we have studied what kind of Issue there is.

There are a very wide range of Issue. On the vertical axis, we put the level of Issue, which is connected to a large policy Issue, the level of institutional Issue, and the level of technical business Issue. On the horizontal axis, we map what kind of Issue people, cars, and traffic environments have. The result of our study so far is that the Issue you are looking at has been extracted. In particular, the areas shown in red are important parts that need to be further discussed, and we are currently in the process of deepening them.

In order to make it as easy as possible to share why Issue actually came out in the process of digging deeper, on the following pages we show an illustration of the roles of cars, people, and infrastructure in how automated driving will be formed.

At first, when you try to design a mobile service, after taking into account the risks that are difficult to predict and avoid, the area you want to do is wide as shown in gray on the left. In fact, if the majority of automated driving technology has not increased to that extent, the area where automated driving can be done is a little smaller than the area you want to do. It is shaped like a broad bean.

When we try to actually aim for social implementation, there are two patterns. One is to make the area narrower and narrower, and push it into the broad bean. If it still protrudes, we can use infrastructure to deal with it. For example, we can education the rules of people, or create new rules in smart cities. The upper pattern is that infrastructure and people work together to ensure safety by covering a certain small area, even if it is not a desired area, as a trinity.

In the lower row, if you absolutely do not want to reduce the service area, I think you should first think about increasing the area where the automated driving system can respond autonomously. If this broad bean still does not spread sufficiently, we will add the coverage of the infrastructure and make the rules of people known. However, in this case, depending on the situation, there may be some gray areas that are not covered. It can be said that how to handle the gray areas in the future will be a big Issue when we try to provide mobile services.

We will take this approach. In that case, the first Issue is how to determine the boundary of the broad bean. There is a way to cut a cross section of the broad bean and make a deductive, top-down validation, show it, and prove that it is safe. There is also a way to make a functional testing of the broad bean experimentally, confirm its safety, and color it to make it darker and darker. There are several ways to do it, but each has its own advantages and disadvantages. In any case, unless we can share with third parties the fact that the range of the broad bean can be clearly defined to this extent, it is difficult to discuss the next one because it is insufficient.

This may be the other way around, but I think it is natural to take the approach of limiting the system to this level on the premise that the infrastructure and people will cover it in advance. In any case, it is necessary to make efforts so that the interface can be firmly determined, and I understand that detailed discussions will begin on how far to pursue this interface in terms of rules and how to have the examination conducted, with the aim of achieving 50 locations in 25 years.

In terms of expanding the limits of the system, for example, we can increase the speed at which we can run. Then, we can expand the area where we can run and the map. We can also expand the scenes that can be dealt with by, for example, using AI. On the other hand, since there is remote monitoring in the service, we can increase the scenes that can be solved by the power of remote monitoring. In any case, I think that it is necessary to discuss in the future to what extent this effort will be made transparent, so that not only the implementing side but also what will be examined in the future or what will be used will be clearly understood.

As for the third Issue, we will expand the broad beans. Next, we will consider the combination of infrastructure and people. Here, there are ITS poles like the one that Mr. Toden just mentioned, which we call active infrastructure. There are also cases where cooperation with passive infrastructure, such as installing guardrails, simply installing a new right turn signal, or creating a dedicated lane, can ensure sufficient safety. I think it is very important to discuss whether it is one of these or not, and to discuss how to firmly hand over the demarcation point of responsibility in order to achieve a common understanding that the system can be built up to this point and the infrastructure will firmly support the future.

This is also true for people. For example, in a management space such as a smart cities or a service in a park to some extent, it is also true that customers are required to follow the rules thoroughly. In the end, I believe that it is extremely important to be able to discuss how to take responsibility, including what to do if the rules are not followed, in order to ensure safety as a whole.

In other words, since broad beans are part of the automated driving system itself, where the automated driving system cannot respond, other measures will be taken. Therefore, it will be quite difficult to respond to places where the automated driving system cannot respond. I believe it is very important to have a framework for discussions so that roles can be shared properly, including the fact that it is really OK.

Finally, if there remains a part of the risk that cannot be removed by any means, how much risk can be reduced in the so-called predictable and avoidable matrix, especially in the upper quadrant on the right, a case that is difficult to avoid in automated driving but can be somehow predicted? In the whole, for example, we will reduce the risk to an acceptable extent after discussing whether we will meet once in a lifetime or not, whether we will meet every week, and what kind of place we will settle down. Zero is logically impossible, so I think it is ultimately very important to identify and build an acceptable line to reduce the risk to a level that is acceptable to society.

Finally, when the discussion is over and the implementation is finally made, it is necessary to consult in advance about various matters that may occur during the implementation. In fact, in order to launch a service, it is of course necessary to discuss what level will be acceptable. In the event of a service malfunction, cyber security, or other incident, how to deal with it, whether or not the implementer was responsible, and whether or not there was no Issue in the rules themselves or in the examination, I think it will be very important in the future to prepare for and discuss unexpected things that may occur in the future.

As mentioned above, although it is quite abstract, after such discussions, this is a table that links how Issue is related to Issues 1 to 5 and Issue 1 to 5, which I just mentioned, and the industry will discuss this with relevant parties to further deepen understanding.

Today, I stated that it is extremely important to cooperate with "people," "cars," and "traffic environments" under the concept of the Trinity, and that there are still many things that need to be discussed in order to achieve social implementation. I would like to present points 1 to 5 as points of contention, and we are actively promoting the realization and elaboration of these points within our society. As soon as the specifics of these points are established, I would like to start consultations with related parties and lead to useful discussions toward social implementation.

That's all for the announcement.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for explaining in a very organized manner.

We would like to discuss it again, but anyone is fine.

Akimoto-san, please.

Acting Member Akimoto: Thank you very much for your explanation, .

During the automated driving, I understand that we are troubled by the need to establish various rules, technical development, and environmental improvement to ensure safety while flying the drones.

As I am always telling you in drones, there are some things that are difficult to listen to, so I would like to introduce them to you.

For example, in the past, we asked the Civil Aviation Bureau to allow us to use areas in places like this in drones. There is an airline magazine called AIP, and there are various areas such as training areas. When I asked them to set up a system to allow us to set up drones areas there, they said, "No." So, I can't help it now. I always think that we need to develop the infrastructure side of how we will fly in the future, because we have a system to certify aircraft that third parties can fly over and to license aircraft that can fly over. The government will develop the system under the Civil Aviation Act. When we ask where we will fly, for example, we will fly over this area in local government's city planning. I am proposing to you that one solution is to set up a main road in the air space as well as prefectural and city roads in the city planning. But it is difficult to do so. There are some that will consider it, but it has not yet made progress. So, I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I can't help it now. I drones

By setting such a route, for example, at the place where we cross the road, for example, we will make the same sign as a crosswalk that says "drones will fly over," and the local government side will make it thoroughly known to the residents that we will fly over. If we fly over the place, it is the same as the controlled area, so it will not be over a third party, so drones can fly normally even in the countryside. I think it will be the local government's job to set up such a route and so-called road signs. In the same way, in automated driving, we will make a sign that says "automated driving level something will pass through." I don't know whether it is good for the national government to set up such a place or for local government to set up such a place, but I think it will be necessary for social implementation to improve the infrastructure such as gradually increasing such attributes of roads.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.

Mr. Saito: The story of mobility , thank you very much.

When I listen to this story, it is very similar to the concerns that customers said when they introduced digital into their equipment in the past. I understand well that we must incorporate this way of thinking into social infrastructure in the current era, and there are stories that we do not know who is there or what kind of system is there in the system of systems, so I think this discussion is quite important.

One of them is that when we look at safty and security from the perspective of cars, there may be demands for infrastructure. Therefore, if we really think about safety, there may be a talk about making mutual demands and creating such infrastructure, and there may be a talk about not being able to guarantee the safety of cars unless, for example, certification and certification are made. The other is that it may be better for cars to have conversations with each other. I felt that there may be a talk about thinking about automated driving with other cars, including, for example, automated driving and alarms, in addition to our own information linkages. Is that included in this? information linkages

Member of Hatano: , thank you very much.

First of all, there may be safety requirements for infrastructure. I think it is technically possible. To put it simply, in the case of automobiles, there is a standard called functional safety for automobiles. There is a standard called ISO 26262, and there is a safety level in accordance with the standard. The most stringent is a class called ASIL Level 4. When automated driving is performed, the core part is attached with ASIL4. If it was possible to require ASIL4 for infrastructure, I think it would be possible to make it a part of the system. However, based on experience, I think it is quite difficult to require ASIL4 for infrastructure.

Another Issue is that the infrastructure is not built only for a specific system. In that sense, it is assumed that the safety requirements will be satisfied. In short, it will be an excessive demand on the infrastructure side, and the infrastructure will not be able to design in reality. Therefore, this issue is not discussed very much.

Mr. Saito: The story of mobility ETC, the in-vehicle device of a certain company was a bit inefficient. The glass of a certain car had a slow response. The rush speed of the ETC was below the initial design value, and it should be OK to crash at about 40km/hr. However, I had a collision with it, so I checked it. Then, the combination was not done properly. If you really try to do it fully automatically, it is actually dangerous if you do not validation properly for such a request.

If you do not require such a level of infrastructure, but want us to be involved in safety in some way, in the case of a failure, for example, if it is operated by people, remote operation is fine, but if it is stopped, it will be bad if we cannot do something about it, so it will probably be about how to manage the system and design. On the other hand, even if we make it fully automatic, we will have to make demands on the infrastructure if we are talking about making it fully automatic, but there are technical limitations, so depending on the situation, we will assume that someone will substitute and overcome the situation. On the contrary, we do not need to do such a thing, so we will sort out the demands and operate the total operation. I felt that there may be cases where we can find a solution.

Member of Hatano: I think you are exactly right. The method will change depending on the required level, so I think there will be a corresponding required level.

It may be inappropriate as an example, but in automated driving, for example, GPS radio waves are considered as information close to infrastructure. Using GPS radio waves, one can determine one's position by measuring where one is on a map, but in fact, GPS alone cannot determine one's position at all technically. Therefore, one uses GPS signals in a way that improves accuracy by combining multiple pieces of information, and one can determine one's position by using GPS signals. If it is used in a way close to such a way, I think it is possible to use infrastructure information in the form of information and make a comprehensive judgment, rather than completely trusting existing information such as look-ahead information and signal information. However, what is important is that we have not yet been able to discuss whether or not to take responsibility in the event of something happening.

Mr. Saito: The story of mobility Perhaps there is a point that this is not negotiable, and there is talk of responding with such a system other than that. I understand.

In addition, there is a talk that it may be bad to attribute all the responsibility to the manufacturer in the so-called social acceptability or response in case something happens. That is the agile governance currently being carried out by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. For example, if a company has been certified and certified in response to standards, it is not the responsibility of the company, but must be covered as a whole. In a sense, it will be bad if the company involved in the accident does not respond to the accident and tell us what was wrong, so instead of giving strange compensation for damage, we will ask for information. Otherwise, the system will not be fixed immediately and cannot be improved. That is what we are discussing. Therefore, I felt that it would be good to discuss it together with such an agile governance.

Member of Hatano: .

From a civil point of view, I think the world of automated driving is quite organized, but I think there is still a part of Issue about the criminal law, so I would like to discuss it together.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yamamoto, please.

Time is pressing, so could you be brief?

Member: I understand.

This is Yamamoto from ITS Japan.

Could you please show me page 6? It is the Trinity. I am very familiar with it because I used to work for a car company, but it is the next one on page 6. In the mixed space on the lower right, I recently conducted a survey on robot taxis in the United States, China, and other countries. There is a tendency to try to work on autonomous driving without infrastructure or environment. Is the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association considering various things like robot taxis in this mixed space? At that time, could you please tell us whether the Trinity, in particular environmental and road-vehicle cooperation, is being considered in various ways?

Member of Hatano: .

Basically, as shown in the example of the business form on the left, we are considering and discussing the business form in the three areas of management space, separate space, and mixed space. However, while considering Issue, in fact, there is not much difference between the three areas in terms of the trinity, and even if it is a mixed space, for example, it does not mean that the infrastructure prepared in the separate space or management space is not used, so I think there is no problem at all. On the other hand, rule making, which is necessary because it is a mixed space, has not yet been clearly extracted by the JAMA, so I think we can somehow discuss it if we cover these three.

Member: However, if it is a mixed space, the cost of infrastructure and other things will be nonsense, so I think the United States is really doing something like robo-taxi autonomously, so I would like to discuss that in the future.

Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , I would like to ask you a question. Due to safety issues, even now, we are in a "European society in the middle," and we do not know what children will do. There are very special places in dependents, such as near elementary schools, where the maximum speed is about 10 kilometers, or even 5 kilometers. In such places, there are a considerable number of countries that adopt the idea of strict liability, in which it is absolutely wrong to hit children no matter how bad they are. In that case, what measures will automated driving take?

Member of Hatano: I think it is best not to run where there are children, but basically, I think it is necessary to take measures to guard young pedestrians in some form.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, At that time, I think this is also a problem of social convention and acceptance, but can you think of such a largeness that it is OK to break a bone?

Member of Hatano: It is difficult to say anything, but I believe that the first priority is to ensure that people's lives are not harmed, so I believe that is what is protected. However, with regard to that, the Issue of sudden pedestrians rushing out is not a Issue that only automated driving must resolve, but a Issue that is common to all traffic participants, and I believe that there is actually no need to discuss this from automated driving.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , I think there may be some spaces where the idea of strict liability is necessary, but I was wondering how you think about the relationship between such a thing and automated driving.

Member of Hatano: As Dr. Saito said earlier, in the case of humans, the driver is responsible for all the results. In the case of automated driving, it is not a person but a machine, so I think the debate over whether it is possible to take the form of taking all the responsibility for the results in Japan will come first. As a result, if a bona fide manufacturer and a bona fide service provider have to take all the responsibility, I think it will be a barrier to entry from the viewpoint of social implementation.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , I think we have to leave soon, so if there is anything, I would like to ask you. If there is another discussion after you leave, I will do it.

Director-General: Just one last word, could you please take out one sheet?

Thank you very much, Hatano-san. I think you are putting out the paper after making quite difficult adjustments, so I would like to thank you very much for your kind arrangement.

With regard to this issue itself, I believe that there will be one more issue that has not been raised yet, which is the ideal form of the insurance system that cannot be helped in the end. I hope that this issue will be taken into consideration.

What I am showing you now is not all of them. However, I think they are going around in a big frame, so based on this, I would like to add the missing points here, visualize the logic of the base, and flesh it out a little in the final round. It would be good if you could think that this is not enough, this is not enough, this is not enough, or this is not enough. So, two times ago, I just showed one sheet first.

We are going around and around, so it doesn't matter where you start. For example, if you are a self-help business operator, the initial introduction cost is high. How can you off balance this? At that time, for example, just an idea, like the early stage of electronic computers, is it possible to put in some form of off balance mechanism, such as leasing goods purchased by the national government or a national policy company at a low price? Even so, there are still many deficits, so as you talked today, is there a mechanism that can be seen from more than just the profit of the transportation business by cross-sectional analysis of social impact?

As an extension of this, as Mr. Izumi of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry said in his lecture, after stratification of roads, why don't we look at the demand for each of them, such as roads viewed as narrow streets in a town, roads viewed as main streets in a town, national highways connecting towns, and expressways? It does not matter how you divide them, but when the population increases and the supply of roads has to be rushed, the government has developed them, prefectures have developed them where they are insufficient, municipalities have developed them where they are insufficient, and there are agricultural roads and forest roads. I think that management bodies have been defined as supply bodies that chase demand. Now, it is not insufficient, but when it comes to how to maintain and upgrade them, we have to explain the rationality of investment by tracing back from the actual demand for each. Therefore, I think that it will be necessary to discuss how to propose this at the time of compilation. In terms of what kind of demand to analyze, if I say too much idealism, I think that the extent to which demand can be read in data will follow here.

In spite of this, there is talk of infrastructure sharing, but there is talk of environmental improvement on the road side, and cooperative control between vehicles and robots. If it is not quasi-public, how will infrastructure sharing be involved in the efficient infrastructure development to support it? As a hidden flavor, I don't know if it is a tandem or a Nigiwaihiroba in today's talk, but if an n-to-1-to-n structure is multiplied somewhere in terms of the flow of people and the flow of equipment, it may be possible to see the profit line.

Nevertheless, in the end, there will be discussions on what to do on the action side and the rule side, and the discussions I asked Mr. Hatano to make at the end of today. At the same time, I think it is necessary to consider the social responsibilities system. This is just mapping. It is not all, but we will probably add what is sufficient and what is not sufficient for the logic structure, and the final expanded version will become the agenda list. When we launch the mobility Working, we will be able to create a source for what kind of agenda we need to ask each ministry and agency to consider. I thought about mapping in this way. I would like to discuss it two times in advance, so if you could give me your impressions and comments during the meeting, I would like to be able to consult with you in a way that incorporates your stories when I present it in the final meeting.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, ? I would like to discuss it a little more, including Mr. Hatano's presentation, or this summary proposal.

Go ahead.

Koda Member: Thank you, . Just a word.

I believe that there have been many presenters who have talked about the utilization of existing resources, so when considering the issues in the field of mobility policy in the future, I would like to see a huge investment in terms of mobility sharing, CtoC, for example, ride-sharing, and mobility vehicle-related sharing, not only in new places such as automated driving and drones, but also in consideration of profitability and adjustments to the current society.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Go ahead.

Member: I'm Suda from the University of Tokyo, .

One thing, according to Hatano-san, I was very happy this time, which is the risk. I think that we can have a quite realistic discussion about the fact that the idea of Larb is displayed, so I hope for that.

That being the case, with regard to the materials you have just provided, you are talking about the cost of doing business, and I thought safety and risk would be included in the discussion.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, : I don't think you are considering me, but the road is quite large. The Road Law is a really old public domain management law, so there is nothing we can do about it, so I would like you to discuss it. Not only the road, but for example, the Road Transportation Law, the Railway Business Law, and the data-related issues that I mentioned earlier, are really old issues, so I would like to encourage you to discuss them.

If we don't do that, we will really be destroying the various resources and value generators that we have, and I think this is really bad, so I think architecture is important, so I hope we can do our best.

Mr. Hasui: My name is Hasui from the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry in .

As you said earlier, I think there is a way to connect insurance and money-related matters here. The part that functions as insurance and the investment structure in terms of how much huge investment can be made in infrastructure, as mentioned earlier, of course, it does not work as a simple subsidy, and my previous job was actually in charge of the Innovation Investment Corporation of Japan, so in that sense, I think there is a way to finance by incorporating an equity and debt structure.

In addition, there were some materials, but in terms of the relationship with finance, it is the second place. There are things that are necessary now and things that will produce effects in the future. As was the case with Mr. Mitoyo City, there may be one piece of evidence on how to measure things that will not be paid immediately but will be paid somewhere in the future. I am a little concerned that it will be strange to talk about public accounting. How much can you distinguish between the second place and the things that will be subject to it?

In addition, the story of risk is actually social responsibility, or on the other hand, the acceptance and acceptance that Dr. Ishida mentioned earlier. In the past, I was involved in the planning of so-called regulatory sandboxes, and at that time, of course, the participants in the demonstration agreed to it, but what should be done around it? For example, a similar project was the demonstration of Segways on public roads, and there were only two sites in Japan. One site was demonstrated in Tsukuba City, which has now become a supercity, and the other site was demonstrated in Futakotamagawa. Even if the demonstration was conducted, the final result was not stable enough, so it was difficult to fly it, and it did not reach the form of the current electric kick scooter. However, I remember that when we asked how to explain to the residents in the vicinity of the demonstration, whether it should be a sign, whether we should hold a proper briefing session, and how to do around the people who will participate in the demonstration itself, the social acceptability was very much discussed.

In that sense, I would like to say one thing. It was also in the presentation by the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association. It is true that in autonomous driving, as you said earlier, what should be done about the responsibility issue where there is no human intervention? Actually, a few years ago, there were various discussions within the Liberal Democratic Party and others. However, on the other hand, I think one thing that is similar is that the electric kick scooter project you mentioned earlier has been gradually developed, and now it is quite advanced in a sense, as long as the speed is below a certain level, it is not necessary to have a license. However, when I look at the Internet and other sources, there is quite a lot of criticism against it, and I feel that this is sufficient for a case study in a sense.

I think the issue of social acceptability is very important, including this one, so I have mentioned various things, but it will be very informative, so I would like to ask for your continued support.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you very much.

What do you think?

Mr. Saito: The story of mobility is not the story of Mr. Okamoto earlier, but there is a story of mobility of green innovation. So, one of the points is that Digital Agency is actually investing separately, and I think it would be good if one of the bases was what kind of form it would be next. Maybe if we don't do that, there will be separate stories here and separately. There will be stories such as solving social Issue, the crisis of distribution and people's flow in the wake of declining birthrate and aging population, and responding to the intensification of disasters. Another thing is, as Chairman Ishida said earlier, there are digital transformation of various ministries and agencies, and it is necessary to respond to what should be done with a view to such points as one aspect. If the head of the Digi-cho can respond, the entire ministries and agencies will be brought together. I think something will be completed, so I would like to expect that. Mr. Murakami, nice to meet you. mobility

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, : As you explained, the mobility Working will be a conference endorsed by Council for the Promotion of a Digital Society, so I think we need to have thorough discussions so that we can perform such a control tower function, and it is also about how to involve various people. Since it is a very big issue, I think it is really important to have a meeting on how to involve people from the industry, including ministries and agencies. Thank you for your continued support.

Go ahead.

Director-General: In that sense, one thing is to discuss by expanding the stake. On the contrary, I said that I would create a place like a binary confrontation, which is always the case, or I said that I would not say that, or I was a member of this group. So, with Digital Agency coming out, Mr. Koda and others have been working hard since last year, but from the demand side, agriculture can be included, even if it is extreme, and the time frame is at least five years in the case of the road map. Instead, relatively bold institutional reform can be included as an agenda without running away. I am not sure if I can really get it together by expanding the scope to that extent, but I will expand it and take it for a long time, and instead I will do it deeply without running away. If we make a mistake in kicking off the agenda for that, it will be quite difficult to add an agenda later, so in that sense, I think that the dynamics of the entire discussion will be unexpectedly determined by using the head to throw in the material now, or how to make the logic that you saw only one piece today, for example, if there are more buffer variables of safety as a whole, or how to make it well. I would like to proceed with the discussion after carefully considering that. I will do my best. Thank you.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

I'll give it back to you.

Counsellor Asayama: Dear , thank you very much for your very valuable opinions today.

I would like to introduce the future schedule. In today's discussion, you said that the national road map is very important to prevent a combination explosion. As stated in the Director-General's address, Digital Agency will make steady efforts, but in reality, it is quite difficult to compile a roadmap for five times. Yesterday, I spoke with the Director-General, and he said that it would be difficult to complete the roadmap for five times unless the members of the Committee attend the six times. In his address, he said that the roadmap would be compiled one after another, but I would like to introduce the future schedule.

The next meeting will be held on Monday, July 24, and in the same way, the members and guests are scheduled to make presentations. However, as the Government must take this seriously, the ministries and agencies were originally scheduled to make presentations, but I would like to make adjustments so that I can talk a little longer about the current situation, not just in the form of an explanation. In addition, I believe that it would be best if we could discuss how to move forward, without going to the point of matching with the members and guests who have been talking about how to do various things. Based on this, I would like to have the sixth meeting as the final compilation, and the Secretariat will arrange the schedule from now on. I would like to ask the members to continue to cooperate with me one more time.

Thank you very much for your time today.

Those who participate on the web will also finish here, so thank you very much.