The fourth workshop on the "Mobility Roadmap"

Last Updated:: Sep 6, 2023

Overview

Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2023, from 10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m.
Place: Kioi Conference Seminar Room A, 4th floor, Tokyo Garden Terrace Kioi-cho (used online)
Agenda:
1. Opening
2. Presentations and discussions
  - "' On the Relevance of Transportation and Other Fields' - Attempts to Develop a Logic and Data System from the Administrative Perspective -" (Mr. Kondo, Regional Strategies Division, Mitoyo City Policy Department, Kagawa)
  - "Mobility from an infrastructure perspective" (Mr. Okamoto)
  - "The Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association's Trinity of Efforts to Implement an Autonomous Driving Level 4 Society" (member Hatano)
3. Closing

Meeting video

The meeting is available on YouTube (Digital Agency's official channel).

The Fourth Workshop on the Mobility Roadmap (YouTube)

Material

Minutes

Director Asayama: . My name is Asayama, and I have been here in Director since July, taking over your duties. I am sure that you will be taking care of me from now on, and I look forward to working with you.

The 4th "Study Group on the Ideal of' Mobility Roadmap'" will be held on time.

Mr. Murakami of Director-General is a little late, so I was supposed to greet him, but I would like to greet him as soon as he comes.

Also, as I said before, Mr. Hasui from Deputy Director-General will be in charge of this study group from this time, so I would like to introduce him to you.

As for this study group, we are conducting a live streaming. Also, after the meeting, the recording will be released on Digital Agency's website, so please be aware of that.

Then, Chairman Ishida, please give us your greetings.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

This is the fourth time, and I would like to thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to attend each meeting and discuss various matters.

Today, I would like to have three people talk about it and discuss it thoroughly until twelve thirty. Thank you very much. I would like to start right away.

If you are attending, please feel free to post any questions or comments at any time during the Teams chat.

I would now like to move on to agenda item 2, "Presentations and discussions." I would like to ask Mr. Kondo of Mitoyo City, Kagawa to make a presentation.

Kondo-sama: Thank you for Thank you in advance.

As for Mitoyo City's efforts, I would like to introduce the fact that we started a little bit of work last fiscal year on "the relationship between transportation and other fields - attempts to develop logic and data from the viewpoint of the administration." Thank you for your cooperation.

First, I would like to explain the outline of Mitoyo City in Kagawa prefecture.

Mitoyo City was established in January 2006 through the merger of seven towns on an equal footing. It is located in the western part of Kagawa prefecture in the Shikoku region and covers 222 square kilometers, the second largest area in Kagawa prefecture. On the lower left is Mount Shiude, a famous cherry blossom viewing spot that was covered by foreign media. On the lower right is Oyajigahama, a tourist spot representing the prefecture that has seen its popularity skyrocket on social media for the past five years and is now visited by 500,000 people a year. It is a town rich in nature with such a peaceful countryside.

In terms of population trends, the aging rate is higher than the national average, and the birth rate has been declining year by year. The population decline has also decreased by about 12000 people in the 16 years since the merger, and the impact has been such that one town before the merger has disappeared. Measures against the population decline have become an urgent issue.

Since the merger, Mitoyo City has been a town without a central urban area. If so, we have not dared to build a central urban area and have promoted the creation of a multipolar distributed network that does not become a compact city.

In response to the desire of citizens to move freely and to continue living in a familiar town, we are making various efforts to realize the ideal future by connecting each base with various transportation networks.

In fiscal 2021, we formulated the Public Transportation Plan, and with the idea of "building a community where you can go where you want to go when you want to go," we are starting to consider the future from the viewpoint of full-scale community building and transportation.

This diagram shows the current state of public transportation in the city. First of all, there are two JR lines. There are six stations in total, and there are two remote inhabited islands, so there is one route there. All private bus companies have withdrawn.

(Suspended due to insufficient projection of documents)

In terms of population trends, the birth rate, which I mentioned earlier, is declining, with a decrease of approximately 12000 people in 2016.

Since the town was formed as a result of a major merger of the Heisei, it does not have a central urban area. In that case, we have been working to develop it into a multipolar, decentralized network, rather than a compact city.

As I said earlier, citizens want to continue living happily in the town they are used to living in, and they want to act according to their own will. Therefore, we are making various efforts to realize the ideal future by connecting the bases with various transportation networks.

As for the concept of transportation that will support the future of the city, we are advancing policies based on the public transportation plan.

As for the current state of public transportation, there are two routes for JR Yosan Line and Dosan Line, and one route for a manned isolated island. All private route buses have been withdrawn, but we are operating 12 community bus routes in Mitoyo City. There are 7 taxi companies in total.

This is a route map for community buses in Mitoyo City, like the one for Tokyo Metro. At first glance, it looks substantial, but when you put it on the map, you can see that the area covered by the route buses is limited in the wide Mitoyo City. In fact, the bus stop is about a kilometer away from my house, and if I let go of my car, I can't go anywhere.

There are seven offices of taxi companies in the city, but all of them are small, drivers are aging, and citizens are not able to provide a sufficient supply.

This is one of the characteristics of Mitoyo City. It is a rural area, or rather, it is unique to the region. However, because cars are a prerequisite and taxis, which are unique to the countryside, are luxurious, elderly people still do not use taxis and it is difficult for them to get on community buses. We know that the mobility issues of citizens are still outstanding.

In terms of what we will do in the future, we believe that it is necessary to carefully respond to regional mobility issues by connecting the self-help services of JR and taxi companies with community buses. We believe that it is necessary to provide mutual assistance services.

It was from the half to the top, but there was this major premise. In the past, when the population was growing and the market was expanding, administrative services and local private services were satisfactory. But from now on, services in the area on the lower left will decrease steadily. Administrative services in large companies and regions will become difficult to maintain as services. The safe and secure lives of residents in the Mitoyo City are seriously threatened, and if this continues, they will become unstable. In the middle on the lower right, as I mentioned earlier, we would like to respond by providing services through regional cooperation.

In terms of "solving the challenges of urban mobility," this is the two initiatives related to transportation mobility that were implemented in the basic infrastructure project last fiscal year.

Until now, when we talk about transportation initiatives, the results of our initiatives have been in the red and in the black on a non-consolidated basis, and how many people used them while pursuing cost-effectiveness and efficiency. However, we have decided to change our perspective and way of thinking here. In the basic infrastructure project, we conducted two projects last fiscal year with the idea that mobile services could be effective from the perspective of other fields.

The company that provided the service was Kurashi no Kotsu, Co., Ltd., which was established through cooperation between the local community and the private sector. Using the mobi app service, which is also available nationwide, we offer a flat-rate unlimited ride service and an on-demand shared transportation service in the city, although the service is limited to certain areas.

Kurashi no Koutsu Co., Ltd. is a company that was established as a result of cooperation between representatives who originally felt problems with mobility in the field of education and 13 companies inside and outside the region. At the same time, they are working to solve the city's problems.

We also checked what kind of effect it would have if we provided mobility services to students while collecting data. Last fiscal year, the demonstration period was short, so the educational effect was small. However, we conducted a questionnaire to parents and guardians, and we were able to grasp the problem of transportation. In the future, we would like to take measures for the problem of creating a purpose on the educational side.

Next, we measured the effect of the relationship between health and mobility for elderly people. We wanted to use mobi as mentioned earlier, but there was a problem with the digital divide, so we actually conducted a demonstration using taxis.

Specifically, when we looked at the data on how to use the service to increase opportunities to exercise, we found that it actually increased. As shown in the table in the middle, for the 17 demonstration participants, we obtained data that they increased by an average of 1,100 steps per day. As there is an academic paper that increasing the number of steps reduces medical care, if we consider these together, we were able to confirm that it may actually reduce medical care costs in the medium to long term. This is what we found out after actually doing it last year.

Next, I would like to talk about the future development potential of Mitoyo basic infrastructure.

In the basic infrastructure business, we created two systems.

One is to create a mechanism to link the effects of multiple entities across fields, combined effects, and evaluation data.

Second, on the right, while using the foundation, we created a system to support what kind of combination will be used for business.

Regarding the first point, "development potential," when we look at data from multiple operators not only for one business but for the entire region, we can accurately measure whether transportation services are sufficient and whether there is room for improvement. By looking at the data from the data, we can improve existing services and improve efficiency, and optimize the entire region.

Next, regarding the second development aspect, the direction of development is to consider how to combine and combine with fields other than transportation. It is known that it is difficult to establish a transportation business as a business by itself in a region with a small population and a small population density. Then, I think it can be said that whether or not we can increase the added value and value of transportation services created by cooperation with other fields, co-creation between different industries, and cooperation efforts is the key to maintaining services in the future.

Then, I will explain what I would like to do in the future.

The utilization of data linkage at the top will improve the efficiency of mobile services and optimize the entire region, and mobile services will be enhanced and activated.

Under that, it is also known that the activation of mobility can create ripple effects through collaboration with other fields, and this can also be achieved through data. So far, it is as I explained earlier.

Third, if mobility is enhanced, people's daily lives will be enhanced and the number of migrants will increase. This will also have a sufficient social impact.

It is conceivable that mobility initiatives through mutual assistance, which can have a ripple effect on other services, will lead to an increase in the number of companies that want to do business together, invest in the business, or support the business, regardless of whether it is within or outside the region.

Fifth, if such investments create economic ripple effects in the region as a whole, the economic strength of the region will increase, and there will be room to invest in mobile services (1) at the top. We expect that a virtuous cycle will be created in which multiple added values and enhancement of existing services can be achieved through further collaboration of services.

Lastly, I would like to talk about efforts to visualize social impact.

This is a visualization of the effects that represent the efforts that have been made so far and their results. We call this logic tree. Last fiscal year, when we measured and verified the well-being effects in the issue Gold Project, Mitoyo City independently created it. I believe that there is a causal relationship between each effort and the effect that the result shows. For example, in the traffic infrastructure on the left at the far end of the tree, the red box shows the first effect that will appear when the effort is implemented. It is in the column B on the right, and it will lead to a change in the lives of residents. Migration and exchange will lead to an increase in connections and roles, which will further lead to a change in the condition of neighboring residents. It will lead to the prevention of dementia and frailty, which will eventually lead to an administrative impact such as an improvement in the well-being of the citizens on the far right, a decrease in medical expenses as an administration, and a decrease in nursing care benefits. While actually collecting data on these, we will proceed with verification and initiatives to see if there is really such a causal relationship.

As the verification progresses and more and more data can be obtained, we would like to be able to judge how much of the city's resources will be invested in the initiatives on the far left based on the administrative impact on the far right. While the financial situation is bad and investment expenses are difficult to set up, we can establish a system to provide financial support with a solid basis. I think this is the EBPM in the transportation field in Mitoyo City.

The way of thinking I just mentioned is quite difficult to understand, so I made a visualization in order to foster citizens' understanding of what kind of long-term impact we are looking at.

In addition, from the three pillars of each area, green for health, pink for education, and yellow for industry, we visualized how each initiative will eventually lead to a rich life in Mitoyo, which is in the middle, in the long term.

Based on such a future map, we have started to take approaches to verify the effects of each initiative, and looking at the social impact on the administration that I just mentioned, we will support mutual assistance initiatives, including mobile services.

This concludes my brief introduction to Mitoyo City's efforts. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you.

Now that Mr. Murakami has arrived, I would like to ask him to say hello, and after that, I would like to discuss with you all, so I would like to ask for your continued support. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Murakami Director-General: Let me say a few words. I really wanted to introduce what I just talked about, and after that, I would like to introduce pieces that may be related to infrastructure sharing.

At the end of today, I have prepared a separate sheet of paper on what kind of mapping will be the main point. Also, depending on the situation, if I have to explain various things to each ministry in the final round, I am afraid that it will be out of line. I would like to consult with you, but since the discussion has become lively and lively, I am thinking of adding one more in the summary alone depending on the situation. This is not a consensus, but a place where various opinions are expressed and points of discussion are expanded, so I will consult with Chairman Ishida well about that, and on the premise that I will be guided to you in the end, I would like you to say what you want to say as much as you can during the time. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you.

Now, it's time for discussion. I would like to ask those who will participate on the web to use the hand-raising function. What do you think?

Mr. Koda, please.

Member Koda: Thank you , thank you very much.

I am Koda from AsMama Co., Ltd., which is working to build local communities across the country.

I had a question. First, I thought it was very interesting that the initiative was not concentrated in seven regions. In Mitoyo City, where the population is aging rapidly, elderly people were given taxi tickets. How did they apply for subsidies? If there were no subsidies, they would probably not have been used, so the first question was how they were made to go out.

This time, I believe the service was demonstrated using mobi. I believe there are about 30000 elderly people and children who are eligible for the service. How many people are expected to use the service and how many people actually used it? The second question is whether there was a gap between the hypothesis and verification stages or not.

Third, the purpose of this time is to introduce education. For example, it is certain that there will be a deficit if data linkage, etc. is simply moved, so I think that business development incorporating multi-domain industries will be an exit. I think you mentioned that that part did not penetrate, but I would like to ask you about the factors that are considered to have not penetrated and the factors that education did not fully communicate to residents.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, ?

Kondo-sama: Thank you for .

First, taxi ticket subsidies will be provided across seven regions. Last fiscal year, within the basic infrastructure project, a quota was set for seven business offices as commissioned projects, and the upper limit was the number of people in each of the seven regions, and there were regional and wide-area needs for transportation. Therefore, we utilized the issue Fund from the basic infrastructure project, negotiated with taxi operators using the financial resources, and aimed to transport the elderly.

In addition, as for the target area of mobi, the number of elderly people and children was 30000, but we did not set a hypothesis to that extent. First of all, the target area of mobi is currently limited to two towns in our country, so we wanted to set the area to see how effective the movement related to education would be, and then verify how it would be.

As written in the materials, one of the reasons why it did not spread was that it was difficult to provide educational content in the region and the purpose of moving for education, and we would like to expand our efforts in this area in the future.

Ms. Koda, could you please repeat the last question?

Member Koda: Thank you This is the difference between the expected number of users when mobi is introduced this time and the actual number.

Kondo-sama: Thank you for , but I'm sorry about the difference between the assumed number of people using the service and the actual number of people using it, but I can't give you any detailed figures right away.

Member Koda: Thank you .

By the way, did the users of mobi use it for free?

Kondo-sama: Thank you for It was free of charge during the period.

Member Koda: Thank you .

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, What do you think?

Saito-san, please.

I would like to confirm something. You mentioned earlier about a decrease in the population. In that sense, there are issues such as children's education and health. Basically, there are two types of issues. One is to reduce the total cost of social infrastructure as a whole, and the other is to raise the value of social infrastructure. In this talk about public assistance using mobi, in a sense, if you look at the total cost of the current business operator, you can see how much it will cost. There are people who are employees or who drive cars, and there is also infrastructure operation and maintenance. For example, when you maintain the infrastructure, the cost is a little too high compared to the income from the users, so there is a story that does not hold. First of all, in that sense, I think there is a story to reduce the total cost. In the current plan, you talked about various things such as buses and taxis. Are there any parts where you are developing measures to reduce the total social cost?

You mentioned something like a compact city earlier, so I would like to ask if you are thinking about an operation where the cost of infrastructure necessary for social life is reduced as a whole by centralizing the infrastructure itself and reducing the operating cost while putting something together.

Kondo-sama: Thank you for .

Going forward, we expect that the provision of services, including mobile services, will be made on a subscription basis. As administrative costs have not been reduced at all, it will be difficult to improve the total cost reduction at once in such a wide Mitoyo City. In that sense, I have an image that the provision of various infrastructure services, including mobile services, will be unified and made on a subscription basis, thereby reducing the burden on citizens and the service operation costs.

Mr. Saito: I am not talking about Mr. Okamoto, but I am talking about the mobility of green innovation. So, I think it would be a good idea to include Digital Agency's mobility working and invest separately as one of the points of discussion, and to form a basis for what to do next. Probably, if we don't do that, there will be separate discussions on what to do here and what to do separately. There will be discussions on solving social issues, dealing with the declining birthrate and aging population, dealing with the crises of distribution and people's flow, and dealing with the increasing severity of disasters. There will also be digital transformation of various ministries and agencies, as Mr. Ishida mentioned earlier, and it is necessary to deal with them as one aspect of what to do with such a perspective. When the top of the Digi Agency is able to deal with it, all ministries and agencies will be unified. I think even one thing can be done, and I hope for that. Thank you, Mr. Murakami. Suggestion, basically, it is necessary to understand where and how the lives of citizens and residents, who are currently on the demand side, are moving, for example, in the case of mobility. There is also the so-called demographic trend, so in how many years in the future the current population will age, the children will grow older, and the usage environment will change a little. We will reduce the cost of infrastructure while taking actual data and assuming what form the infrastructure that supports the lives of residents in total, including the operators preparing the next infrastructure, should take.

As you mentioned earlier about subscriptions, if we provide optimal services using various types of data, we will be able to visualize and eliminate current waste. If we can do that properly, I think we will be able to see a bit more ahead, so please do your best.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you.

Mr. Yamamoto of ITS Japan can raise his hand. Please.

Mr. Yamamoto: I have two questions about last one mile, first one mile, and shared taxi on demand.

The first question is, as you mentioned in the last slide, Mr. Mitoyo City, I think there was a place like the beautiful Salar de Uyuni, which attracted a lot of people. Do you have any idea about how to reach the people coming in from outside, the so-called tourists, especially the first one mile and the last one mile?

One more thing, sharing on demand, as Mr. Kondo mentioned earlier, it is quite difficult to share a taxi. Once the route is decided, there is no flexibility. As for taxis, there are not many drivers. In terms of mutual assistance, have you ever considered such things as community car sharing or private paid passenger transportation?

I would like to ask these 2 questions.

Kondo-sama: Thank you for .

First of all, regarding the question about the last one mile and first one mile for tourists, this is exactly what Mitoyo City is dealing with. Mitoyo City does not provide such services as an administrative service. Community buses are also suspended on Sundays, so we cannot provide administrative services on Sundays when tourists come.

However, as I mentioned earlier, Oyajigahama, such as Salar De Uyuni, has developed and the number of tourists has increased by 500,000. This time, not only mobi but also private services and secondary transportation services through private sector cooperation have been launched, and I believe that such initiatives will increase in the future.

As for the other question, since it is quite difficult to share a taxi, are you not considering paying for a private car or something like that? Of course, I have introduced the private sector's cooperation efforts, but as for the administration, on the other hand, in areas and fields that are depopulated and difficult to reach by private sector cooperation alone, we are advancing the demonstration of shared taxis in depopulated areas, including cooperation with taxi operators for paid private transportation, and in such areas, we are currently conducting simultaneous demonstrations of the optimal transportation depending on the location of transportation and the target audience.

That's all.

Mr. Yamamoto: Thank you.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, and others?

Akimoto-san, Okamoto-san in that order, please.

Deputy Akimoto: Thank you for your explanation, . I am Akimoto from the Japanese Unmanned Aircraft Operation Management Consortium. I am representing Committee Member Suzuki.

In fact, I am from Marugame City, Kagawa, and my wife is from Mitoyo. Looking at both cities, I think that Kagawa is a cultural area where not one family has one cart, but one person has one cart. In this context, we will provide mobility to elderly people who have no means of transportation and promote their health. By improving the quality, we will reduce the burden on the city. I don't know if this will reduce the burden and increase profits or revenue, but in addition, we will shift to mobility, and I think there will be some places where it will be impossible to concentrate any further. In such a situation, I hope that mobility for the elderly will take a good shape somewhere. I have high expectations for it.

In terms of education, I think we need to improve the quality of education that can be provided within the region. In particular, if you go to Marugame, there are many cram schools, and if you go to Takatsu, there are not many cram schools, so I think everyone will go to Marugame by train. Therefore, I think it would be better for the region to consider improving the quality of education and its contents.

Anyway, I am looking forward to it, so please do your best. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Next, Okamoto-san, please.

Member .

Thank you very much for your explanation. It was a very interesting approach and very helpful.

To be specific, I think you gave out tickets to elderly people and told them to take a taxi. I may have missed your story, but when I wanted to collect information, when elderly people call me with a smartphone app, I think they would be able to see their travel history and how many steps they have taken with their smartphones. However, on the other hand, it is difficult for elderly people to have a smartphone, and I thought that getting my mother to have a smartphone was the start of digitalisation, so we worked hard as a family, but we succeeded, but it was quite difficult, so I wonder how you are working on that.

One more thing, I think you are looking at your own parents. When you touch an elderly person who is in good health and listen to what he or she says, you seem to think that you have to work a little harder. I would like to ask you if you have any ideas about how these elderly people interact with each other. I am sorry that this is not the true nature, but I would appreciate it if you could tell me about it.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Kondo-san, could you help me?

Kondo-sama: Thank you for .

It is true that this is a challenge for us. In the explanation of the demonstration earlier, there were 17 participants. In fact, we wanted to increase the number of participants. Instead of 17, there were 50 participants. We wanted to secure a larger budget. The smartphone you just mentioned, and this time we have a wearable device that wraps around the arm and automatically collects data on the number of steps taken and blood pressure. They will come to the explanatory meeting for that, but regarding the rental of a wearable device, there are concerns that it may be monitored and various data may be collected. There were some people who left the demonstration. The 17 participants who understood and grasped these points participated in the demonstration. There are still many hurdles to overcome in terms of the digital divide. In order to properly collect data on the elderly, we need to explain and improve the digital literacy of the entire region.

In terms of how to secure healthy elderly people, on the other hand, there are various initiatives, such as allowing elderly people to compete with each other, showing how many steps I took today and how I did with data and visualizing them, and by such initiatives, showing initiatives in terms of health points, I think you are the best today and you are the best this month.

Member Thank you very much.

From what I've just told you, I think there are some barriers for elderly people, but when I hear that some people are using it and it's very convenient, or that it's doing well, I think that elderly people around me will also want to use it, so I thought it would be great if you could expand it, so thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Suda, Committee member, please.

Member Suda: This is Suda from University.

Thank you for your explanation. It was very interesting to hear your story.

I would like to ask you something. I am a little interested in what kind of OD there is, especially for high school students. I have an image that the last mile is as close as 1.5 kilometers, but I have a feeling that it will be quite a long distance in the case of multipolar dispersion. Please tell me the actual situation around there. What do you think? Thank you.

Kondo-sama: Thank you for .

As for the distance, there are various modes for residents' daily life and transportation. For the elderly, they go to the hospital or go shopping. Basically, it is within the area, so there are seven towns, so they go to the nearest family doctor or the nearest supermarket, so there is not much OD or travel distance, but some data shows that they sometimes travel a considerable distance outside the area, using community buses across cities.

Basically, high school students who do not have a driver's license go to high schools, but there are three schools in the area. Some of them go to schools outside the city as a matter of course, so we understand that there is a considerable distance to travel in each case.

Member Suda: This is Suda from You are going to travel quite a long distance.

Kondo-sama: Thank you for , as I mentioned earlier, there is no central urban area, so we are not concentrating on there. I feel that the travel distance is long in various ways at each base.

Member Suda: This is Suda from I see. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Anything else?

Murakami Director-General: .

One of the themes that I would like to discuss is how to read through the demands. For example, I would like to give an extreme example. Mr. Mitoyo City happened to write in his handout that he was planning to ship out food. For example, there is a local trading company in Okayama prefecture called Casta-Okayama, which bundles up small farmers and ships out food, but local farmers like Aeon entrust it to them. However, that is not the only point. What Casta-Okayama is doing is to read out the demands of Aeon from the beginning and backcast it to farmers who are not engaged in planned production. He gives them guidance on when and how much to plant the crops. He does it on an Excel sheet and carries it in his own mini truck. It makes me cry, but in fact, I would like to see people who are not me carry the mini truck. I would like to have a business model for that, but there is no combination of second and third Casta-Okayama and farmers who can follow it. In fact, JA is interested in it now.

So, I don't think we can go all the way upstream. In other words, in the case of Mt. Fuji, based on accurate statistics, we are teaching farmers who have a constitution that does not consider the operation rate. This is the real Anko. As a result, it is easy to understand. Right now, they are desperately transporting by mini truck, and since they are operating without a warehouse, they are making profits. This kind of story may be a model. Whether it is in the form of social impact or not, but if we look at it upstream with a little cross-sectional greed, in fact, there is a lot of potential demand that is left unattended.

Looking at the traffic, there are people who have a driver's license but are not sure whether to return it or not. It is quite difficult to figure out how to bring it in data, and it is easy to pick up and drop off from Shafuku facilities, but if you look closely, you will find a hint in the middle.

For example, in the case of Mitoyo City, I think it would be a good idea to look up the people who stay at GATE. There are new projects that have come out with a cycle of operations, and the biggest problem for them is that the hotel fee is likely to be more expensive than the part-time fee. Moreover, when they are wondering if they are going to roll their cars all the way there, if there is public transportation, they can go there for a while. When they start going to the area once a week or once a month, if they rent a car every time, it would be expensive, and if there is public transportation, they can't go there and it makes them feel somewhat distant. I don't know if it's something we do directly in this study group, but if we go a little further upstream and carefully look at it, we can actually see quite a lot of data, or we can see when and where the demand for transportation occurs.

If we shift to self-driving cars, the concept of operation rate will probably change even more. We don't need to think about increasing the operation rate of cars that are in regular service. If there is no one who uses it from 10:00 to 13:00, we can leave it there and charge it. This is not a time shift, but if we think that we will operate it if we know it from the beginning, it will look a little different from bus operators or taxi operators. On the other hand, it is impossible for transportation companies to do all of this. In that case, in the form of Mr. Mitoyo City's initiative, when we talk about whether we can create a data-based system that collects such demand, I think that social impact measurement in well-being is a good way to discover. This is my awareness of the problem that I asked Mr. Mitoyo City to talk about. I would be grateful if I could add a perspective such as who should do it or who should collaborate with to design traffic demand well.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, To be honest, what you just said is quite difficult. I believe that ideas and data that can be used for such ideas are steadily being developed. Therefore, how to use them is a matter of concern. However, there are cases where people who actually work, including people and cargo owners, are not aware of such services because there are no such services, so I think it is really important to discover and uncover demand, including such things.

In order for people to really feel this, I would like to have word of mouth and talk about how good it was. I also hope that Mr. Mitoyo City can really implement the data platform that he is aiming for, something like the one on page 25, and that the demands are scaled so that it can be properly used for EBPM. I hope that we can walk together, so I would like to thank you again on this occasion.

Kondo-sama: Thank you for Thank you.

Murakami Director-General: , I saw that only one new customer was created in a planned way. In that case, I saw that children were brought to a woodworking man called Minmanabi, who taught them woodworking classes. In return, the children taught them how to use their mobile phones, and they came home, so we were educated together, we were educated together. More than that, there was something like a citizen car service. The operation manager was a taxi management company, but if it looked like a symbolic citizen, some people raised their hands to ask if they could also deliver a health promotion class. Then the number of drivers increased again. Girls and boys high school students said that they would not use it to help them raise children on days when they did not have any club activities. When I opened the door, I saw from Kurohigashi Taxi that they did not have the existing demand for taxis. However, if I make one thing easy to understand like this, I don't see that there is such a service or that there are people who are willing to accept it in the first place. It seems that it is impossible to ask for a taxi or a public bus now, and I feel that I have given up on it, so I think I will study it to see if there is a way to do it.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , there was a lot of demand for education-related lessons and lessons, and there was talk that the profit structure was quite good. I heard that the accumulation of such small stories is actually important, so I thought that we should definitely consider not only public education but also various education and civic lessons, as there are many of them.

Now, I would like to leave the discussion on the first person, Mr. Kondo-san from Mitoyo City, at this point. Next, I would like to ask Mr. Okamoto-san to report on mobility from an infrastructure perspective.

Member Then, I will explain using Handout 5.

Thank you in advance.

There are three points that I would like to talk about today. First, I would like to talk about how electric power assets can be unexpectedly used in consideration of the overall state of infrastructure. Second, I would like to talk about the fact that from our point of view, the mobility business has tremendous synergies. Lastly, I would like to talk about how we can make human-centered use of infrastructure in order to achieve carbon neutrality. In the end, we need to think about how to change customer behavior, so I would like to talk about how we can create such a mechanism.

It's too late now, so from the demographic bonus period on the left to the demographic onus period, I think the importance of mutual assistance and sharing has already been shared by everyone.

In terms of electric power assets, in the case of our company, there are 50000 transmission towers and 6 million telephone poles. In areas where there are no telephone poles, on the contrary, you can see something like a lunch box on the side of the road. We have about 50000 aboveground power distribution equipment, 100,000 kilometers of optical fiber, and 1,700 substations and offices as our bases. In other words, there are many more nationwide.

In terms of how they are currently being used, for example, on the left, utility poles can be used as 5G base stations or as a place to store security cameras, ground equipment can be used as a place to transmit 5G radio waves, and we are trying to use them for digital signage. In addition, we believe that substations can be used in various ways, such as various communication devices and servers, and they can be co-located, so they can be used as roadside infrastructure in the sense of mobility.
In terms of mobility, when I think about Level 4 of autonomous driving, I think it will be quite difficult with just the sensors on the vehicle. For example, when I think about things like meeting at an intersection as shown in this picture, as shown in the picture there, for example, there is a telephone pole where you can see both roads, and you attach sensors there and communicate with them. I think there is an image of cooperation such as safety or that it can be used to realize autonomous driving.

It's too late now, but of course, there are various levels of autonomous driving, such as driving on an unspecified route, a specific route, or inside a private land, and completely unmanned or assisted by people. Requirements vary depending on the use case, but I think that roadside infrastructure is applicable to each situation.
I would like to talk about some examples of actual demonstration of support for autonomous driving. This is within our area, in Numazu City, Shizuoka Prefecture, where there is a place where autonomous buses turn around. Sensors, cameras, and communication devices are installed there in the form of smart poles, as shown in the picture on the right, to monitor intersections and provide approaching information of pedestrians and vehicles to buses. We are doing this together with Shizuoka Prefecture.

This is an example from Kansai Electric Power Co., Inc. in Sanda City. In this case as well, we are providing support to bus drivers. For example, we are able to notify drivers that they are about to jump out of the bus. As you can see in the lower left, the sensor information from the smart pole can be used very effectively, leading to safety.

This is an initiative by Toyota City. At intersections where there are no traffic lights, so-called smart poles are installed. Various sensors, cameras, communication devices, and LED display panels are installed. The new smart poles are used to monitor intersections. This initiative is being implemented by Toyota City, and I believe it is led by Toyota. With such measures, I think the smart poles can be used very well, as I mentioned in three examples.

In terms of roadside infrastructure, if we think about it more generally, I think unmanned autonomous driving is the highest level, but I think it can be said that route buses can be used in various ways, partly because they run in certain fixed places, and partly because they have use cases such as driving support for manned vehicles.

Also, intersections are very important points, so what are they? In some cases, there are telephone poles, in other cases, there are telephone poles of communication companies, in other cases, there are traffic lights, and in other cases, there are street lights. Since there are various existing infrastructures, I think it would be good to use what we have quickly if possible, and if not, to make smart balls. It is important to consider how to use various things well, and to make sensors and other devices that can be used with certain common specifications. Otherwise, it would be completely useless to make telephone poles and telephone poles with different specifications, so I think it is important to standardize and unify these things.

When I think that intersections are very important, I would like to have discussions on the functions provided by intersections in future mobility working. For example, when I think about it, as you can see on the right, it is very important to consider how to include a spot evacuation shelter at intersections, the guidance of self-driving buses, safety applications, and other functions, so I would like to have discussions on them.

I would like to turn now to mobility from the perspective of power transmission and distribution companies.

First of all, the autonomous bus business in the region is not viable on its own, but as you can see on the right, what it should be is a combination of various values, and among various things, as an energy provider, we would like to continue decarbonization of the area, and I would like to focus on this and talk about it.

The key point is that, as I will discuss in the future, an EV is a running storage battery, so I think the basic concept is to locally produce and locally consume local renewable energy as a running battery.

This is a summary of the concept diagram. First of all, the basic idea is to digitally fuse the three networks, and through this, the foundation of so-called co-creation will be created.

On the left is the so-called mobility network, where EV buses and EV shared taxis run. In addition, rapid charging, various charging points, and car sharing stations appear in this network. The EV that came to the charging infrastructure is actually a running storage battery. Looking at the lower power network, it is the same as moving in the power network as a running and moving power source.

On the upper right, if you think about the customer's house, the inside of the house actually has a smart meter, a distribution board, sunlight, a water heater, and so on. If you can park an EV in the house, there is an EV charger in the house. On the right, there is also an information channel, from which you can obtain various data related to customers. This is the case with the mobility network and the electric power network, but in the end, I think the intersection of these three networks will be very important, so it is important to stack the data well and try to integrate these three networks as much as possible.

As for the decarbonization effect of the shift to EVs, in our case, we have 3,600 business vehicles, so we are calculating the assumed effect of the shift. However, this calculation is based on the case where renewable energy is used, so in that case, we can say that a certain effect can be expected. In addition, since renewable energy is used, there is now a surplus problem of renewable energy, which is not in line with the supply and demand of electricity. However, since it will be charged at a timing that matches as much as possible, I think it will be useful for increasing renewable energy.

Actually, we did a simulation in 2050 a long time ago, and if we do it now, I think there will be many different assumptions. I would like you to take a look at one example. This is a simulation of the supply and demand of the whole country in 2050. It is a pattern in which electricity is used for one week, and a huge amount of solar and wind power is put in. As you can see, electricity is not used much on Sunday and Saturday, and it is used a lot on weekdays and from Monday to Friday because it is a hot summer week. Only wind power and solar power are added, and something like nuclear power is added as a base power source, but it does not match the demand, so we will have to decide how to adjust it. In this simulation, if there are 40 million EVs, 30% of them are connected to the power grid and can be used. If we do it, there are times when solar power generates electricity and times when it does not, but I think it can be absorbed by charging and discharging a lot there.

Our company currently has a storage system called pumped storage power generation. Compared to this, the storage system will be one digit higher, and if we can do this, renewable energy will be included and it will be useful for decarbonization.

As for the timing of charging and discharging the EV, I don't know if it can be done so easily. Since the solar power generation increases between 9:00 and 16:00, it would be good to charge the EV according to this time as much as possible and discharge it at a different time. Even if it does not discharge, it would be good to use it as little as possible. However, if we want to do this, we need to do something like a behavioral change. However, since the operation time of an EV bus is relatively fixed, I am wondering if it is possible to use it during the daytime.

To think about this, this map is a graph of the current network congestion situation of our company. The red areas are the times when the network is already congested. If you look at it, the areas along the North Kanto region and the Pacific Ocean are red. The reason is that there is so much sunlight coming in here, and the electricity from photovoltaic power generation flows back from the region, and the flow of electricity that flows back causes congestion. If we look at it in a layered manner, the concentration of supply and demand through mobility in such congested areas is very effective from our point of view. Therefore, if we have a good combination of regional issues and wanting to solve mobility issues, I think we should first do various things there. That is what we will focus on.

This is for your reference. I wrote about the picture on the left in a book a long time ago, but MOBI should not be confused with today's story. There is a global initiative called the Mobility Open Blockchain Initiative, where various decentralized information transactions related to mobility, such as vehicle ID standardization, are being promoted. There is a problem with battery passports now, so how to keep the history, etc., is that it is very good to use blockchain, and MOBI seems to be quite active globally. If there is such a thing, it is easy to use it, and if so, I think that I can easily implement the picture I drew randomly on the left.

Lastly, in terms of the relationship with people, in the end, it must lead to behavior change. If we assume that we can promote behavior change by linking mobility and human behavior, and that we can promote decarbonization by effectively utilizing EVs, I think it would be good to aim for customers, local communities, and infrastructure operators like us, all of whom would like to see three sides of the same coin. For that purpose, I think it is necessary not only to shift to EVs, but also to acquire people's flow information and transmit information, and as I will explain later, we need to create a mechanism that will make it lively as a result.

As depicted in this picture, moving electric buses starting from a place where people gather, charging buses well in the daytime and using solar power well, recommending the use of electric vehicles that can obtain charging information and travel logs as a means of traveling around the area, and moving to the final point by electric buses in the evening, etc. If these things can be done, it will be very good in three ways. Also, for people's flow and data acquisition, I think multifunctional poles can be used.

This is also a point that I would like you to discuss in the future. In terms of creating a lively area, there are devices like roadside cafes and marche, where various types of electric mobility will be centralized. This is the image shown in the picture on the left. By creating such things, people will gather and electric mobility will gather, and the necessity of installing electric stations and multifunctional poles will increase. This is because when such things gather, in the event of an emergency, when everyone gathers here, there will be a battery and it will be an information transmission base, so it will be very resilient. In short, we will create a Nigiwaihiroba and make it a mobility hub. On the other hand, I thought it would be good to think that because it is a mobility hub, people will also gather.

In terms of contributing to the decarbonization of the region, I think it would be very good to match the supply and demand as much as possible by comprehensively linking the picture I drew in the upper right with the supply and demand of electricity generated by photovoltaic power generation in this region or its vicinity.

In conclusion, although it is a little bit long, as the population is decreasing, I think we are absolutely right that cooperation between the public and private sectors and various industries and sharing are necessary for business and infrastructure, and I believe that autonomous driving will approach by making good use of electric power facilities as roadside infrastructure.

Also, from our point of view, we would like to promote regional carbon neutrality. In public transportation, when we use autonomous driving, EVs themselves make it easier for renewable energy to enter, and as a result, we can expect the effect of leading to carbon neutrality. We would like to aim for such a use.

The last point is that, in the end, customer behavior is the starting point, so mobility is added to it, and power supply and demand data is also linked to it to encourage behavior change. In Odawara City, we are conducting an experiment to encourage behavior change using gamification of tourists. While doing that, I think it would be good if we could create value instead of thinking of decarbonization of the region as a cost.

That's all from me.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you.

Then, I would like to have a discussion.

Dr. Suda, please start.

Member Suda: This is Suda from Tokyo University. Thank you very much for your explanation.

Thank you very much for your encouraging comments. Actually, we are in the middle of a project called "RoAD to the L4" by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI) and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) to introduce infrastructure coordination to Kashiwanoha's self-driving buses. We are discussing how to create an ecosystem for this project, and I would be very grateful if TEPCO would join us.

So, I would like to ask two questions and comments. One is that we can use the assets of an electric power company. Specifically, we can use utility poles. Is that correct? Or, more specifically, will you consider sensors or something like that?

One more thing, in terms of EVs, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism recently adopted a project to embed non-contact power supply coils on roads in Kashiwanoha, and we are currently working on a project to actually embed coils at intersections. I believe there is a possibility that EVs and electricity will be connected in various ways, not just at charging stations, and I would like to ask what your views are on this.

Thanks in advance.

Member . I would appreciate it if you would let me join you.

Currently, there are certain restrictions on the use of telephone poles, but in any case, I want people to use them as effectively as possible. The problem is that if we add various things blindly, the space for telephone poles will be limited, so we are thinking about how people can use them in a way that is as high in value as possible. For example, we are thinking about the use case of 5G, but if we add as many radios and antennas as there are carriers, there will be no space, so we will share all of them. We will concentrate things like baseband units at the substation side and share them so that they can play the radio waves of any mobile carrier. We are thinking about sharing what we share so that we can raise the value of each telephone pole as much as possible. However, basically, I want people to use them as well as possible, and it would be very good if people can use them while aggregating them well.

Also, there was a talk about non-contact power supply on roads. This is also on a case-by-case basis. There are places where various things are buried in roads. For example, there are electric wires in places where ground equipment like the one I showed you earlier is buried in the ground. Anyway, electricity is always available along roads, so it will be a matter of how to bring it there. It is on a case-by-case basis, but I think it would be very good if people could use these things well.
That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, I would like to ask you about the occupancy of the current telephone poles. Aren't the conditions for permission for occupancy strict? Is it possible that it will be quite complicated if you put a lot?

Member First of all, they were originally intended for use in the electric power industry. For example, they could not exceed a certain weight. However, there are many cases where cables from cable TV companies are used in places that are currently vacant, or where there are optical fibers, or where there used to be so-called wired lines. If they meet certain standards or restrictions within a certain range, they can be used.

However, as a result, when people see utility poles on the street, many of them are riding on them. In reality, if we are going to use them well, it would be better to organize them well. I am not necessarily familiar with the current situation, but I think that such rules will be necessary in the future.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.

Member Muramatsu: Thank you for your presentation, . I am Muramatsu from Robore Organization.

I would like to make two comments. I believe we are proceeding with the same concept. To be more specific, I believe you mentioned earlier that infrastructure development will accelerate the sharing of mobility, and we are also proceeding with the same thing indoors. The word "robot-friendly" was originally mentioned by METI, but it is an initiative to make it easier to introduce robots by changing the environmental side. As you mentioned earlier, by attaching cameras and sensors to telephone poles, autonomous driving will be easier to introduce, and this will lead to a reduction in the introduction cost for users.

Also, as you mentioned at the end, the mobility hub part, a part of it, like in Nakariya, will be related, so I would like to collaborate with them by all means. It's just one derivative, or rather it's a detailed story, but we think chargers are quite a challenge. The specifications of chargers are different depending on the robot manufacturer, and if we want to create a hub function like this, there will be a wide variety of chargers lined up side by side. This is because the shape of Company A, Company B, and Company C is not realistic, and I wonder if you can successfully standardize it or make it into a collaborative area, so I hope you can continue to work together.

Thank you.

Member .

When we talk about robots and outdoor or mobility, all we are talking about is where the space to move is, so I have heard that it will be the same problem in the end, and in that aspect, there are many common parts, so we would like to study them.

Then, in the end, it will be a matter of how to charge the battery. As you say, if there are various things, it will not work well. So, I think it is very powerful to have standardized batteries to some extent for small mobility. For passenger cars, the batteries are very customized according to the design of the car, and it seems quite difficult to standardize them. For small mobility that will emerge in the future, four motorcycle manufacturers have already standardized the specifications of the batteries, so they can be used not only for motorcycles but also for various things. People who use two batteries instead of one can use two batteries. If such things are placed in the city like charging stations, they can be used for energy management there. So, I think it is better to use chargers and especially for small mobility, it is better to use batteries as well.

We would like to study various things again. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

Mr. Hidaka, you are raising your hand, so please.

Hidaka Member: This is Hidaka from MaaS Tech Japan. Excuse me from online.

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Okamoto.

When I heard your presentation, on pages 22 and 23, I thought it was a very useful initiative from the perspective of continuing to work on mobility and human connectivity, mobility hubs, and MaaS, and I also thought that various expanded uses are expected, although I may not have mentioned in detail because it was a presentation earlier.

We are currently implementing demand transportation in various regions, but in the case of the multi-pole distribution mentioned earlier, if we try to increase the operation rate or meet the needs of users, the number of vehicles will be insufficient. On the other hand, if there is road construction, we cannot stop there or the roads there are impassable, so we need to take measures on the demand side very much, and the routine will change. It is detailed, but there are also considerable costs in such places.

Also, in terms of mobility hubs, it is not possible to maintain wide-area traffic on demand alone. As mentioned earlier, if we want to combine demand with something like trunk line traffic to some extent, a mobility hub is necessary, and considering that it cannot be done by mobility operators alone, I thought that how to organize such a mobility hub concept within MaaS or a comprehensive transportation system is very important, so I thought it would be good if, during the consideration of the roadmap, how these things connect with various things would be discussed and included in the roadmap.

In addition, as for the combination with electric power, we can see external effects in the form of cross-sector effects in traffic data, but I think this study group is looking at it from a broader perspective, and I don't think it will make a significant contribution to how to reduce the total cost and marginal cost of social infrastructure, mainly in rural areas. There is a question of how to apply such a model, and I wasn't able to visit Kyushu today because I was going there on a business trip. Now, as you know, in Kyushu, due to the heavy rain disaster, some of the roads with BRT systems were caved in, and when a disaster occurs, there are basically electric power and mobile infrastructure. This is also the case in the event of a disaster, and when lifelines are disrupted until they are restored, using such infrastructure, it is of course fine if it takes only a few hours to restore, but if it involves construction, it may take several months, or even one or two years, in some cases, so I came here because I think it is a very important point of view in Japan, where there are many disasters.

I learned a lot about your presentation, so I hope we can continue to learn.

That's all.

Member .

When Hidaka, who has been working on MaaS for a long time, said that, I thought that what we are doing could help a little and I was very grateful, so I would like to join you in various ways. Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , in the order of Professor Koshizuka and Mr. Koda, please.

Koshizuka: Koshizuka.

Thank you very much for your presentation.

When I was listening to you, I was very interested to hear that there are various sharing and unification methods in various situations, and there are various initiatives, when I think about it at the level of infrastructure. When you introduced this kind of sharing today, I had a dream that it could be done in such a variety of ways. At the same time, when I listened to sharing stories about mobility and other things from morning to night, I thought that sharing diverged. For example, if there are n elements and sharing, if you do one by one, you can create n factorial sharing. Therefore, there are too many sharing patterns, and if there are n elements, it should be n / 2, but in reality, it seems to be going toward n factorial sharing. In this case, I had a strong impression that the meaning of sharing as a whole, when I look at each one, it is certainly sharing, but when I look at it as a whole, it is just a combination explosion.

For example, if you look at page 11, "Roadside Infrastructure," I think there are many things on the ground, and what I'm saying is unrealistic, so I don't think I can do it. But maybe it would be better to have only one type of infrastructure on the ground. Normally, elementary school students would think so. We are adults, so we do a lot of things, but elementary school students would choose the same one. If there are traffic lights and lights on, everyone does that, but I feel that the number of types will increase more and more. However, if I want to do that, I think I have to go to a certain extent, and I think I have to think carefully about where I should drop it.

In the 15th page, I felt very strongly that there are power networks, communication networks, and mobility networks among the important networks. Until now, power and communication are in the form of smart grids, and these two are trying to cooperate in various ways. Communication and mobility are in the form of MaaS, and when the world of EVs comes out, power and mobility are going to be combined. In the end, when we have to combine these three, mobility is mobility, and there are large entities such as railways and buses, and there are large entities in the electric power industry, and I thought it would be impossible for the combination to explode again. This is not a question but only an impression, but in that sense, I think it is the role of the government, but I have a very strong concern that if we don't do a lot of things, including regulations and industry policy, we will just end up with a combination explosion, and I thought we need to do something about it.

That's all.

Member : Thank you, Mr. Okamoto.

There are certainly aspects that you would like to mention, and that is why I believe it is extremely important for the government and others to compile this "Mobility Roadmap."

Also, on page 12, the functions that should be placed at intersections are listed from (1) to (8), and if they are mapped on the existing infrastructure, it is certain that they appear to be very random, but in reality, I think that what is not necessary will be thinned out. In that sense, I wrote that I would like to have discussions on the so-called mobility working based on the idea of realizing functions with as little infrastructure as possible, and I thought it would be good to have such discussions and make it as simple as possible.

Thank you very much.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

Member Koda: Thank you , thank you very much for the very interesting lecture.

As a company that already has infrastructure platforms across the country, I would like to ask a few questions from a consumer's perspective, thinking that if it is put into practical use, there is a possibility of a very new way of mobility and infrastructure.

On page 6, I would like to talk about safe driving under a declining population and safe driving by autonomous vehicles, which is close to the standardization of diversity that Committee Members Muramatsu and Koshizuka mentioned earlier. When many autonomous vehicles start to run, are they trying to unify the vehicles that can receive sensors, or is the infrastructure trying to diversify with the diversity of car reception? I would like to know how you think about that. I think there will be a difference between the autonomous vehicles that receive sensors and have a control device that can stop them automatically, for example, and those that simply receive information through an app. If that happens, it is a prerequisite that no accidents will occur, but in the event of an accident, whether the control function or the way of safety information communication is better to have or must to have, I thought on page 6 that the speed of implementation will probably differ depending on how it is positioned.

Next, in the discussion on how to make this a sustainable service in the area on page 14, I believe that there was a discussion about how to put this into practical use by converting to EVs because of the heavy burden of spending on vehicle maintenance and route infrastructure. In the first place, what is the percentage of people who are unable to make progress in autonomous driving because they are not EVs? If you know how much the cost performance will increase by converting to EVs, I would like you to tell me as much as you know, and what it should be like. Even if the expenditure and income are balanced to some extent by converting to EVs, I don't think it will be possible to expect a huge profit from the business. Therefore, regarding the autonomous driving bus business, do you think it should be handled by the private sector and led by the private sector? It is written in the funding section that it should be handled by the public sector. Do you think it is desirable to make it like a hybrid joint venture? If you have any thoughts, please tell me.

Member .

First of all, I think it's better to answer from the end.

As for funding, it's hard to think about anything specific, and I think it will end up being a hybrid as described on page 14. However, I think it will depend on how much we can increase the value and reduce the cost at that time, but I think it will basically be a hybrid.

Going back, in relation to autonomous driving and EV, I don't have anything quantitative, and I will answer you very sensuously, so it may not be accurate, but I am an electrical engineer, so the motor as a controlled object has very good control performance, very good accuracy and response, so if I want to automate it normally, it will probably be much better than an internal combustion engine. I am sorry, I think I will be very scolded if there is a person from a machine shop, but if I think as a control engineer or electrical engineer, I can control the motor by using an inverter, but as a controlled object, it has very good accuracy, response and torque, so it is very easy to control, so if I have such a feeling, I think it will be much better for autonomous driving. However, I am sorry that I don't have anything quantitative at the moment.

As you mentioned on page 6, I think that the communication specifications for applications will be different depending on the use case. When it comes to preventing collisions, it will be very low-latency communication. Or, if safety depends on it to a great extent, there are some cases where the communication itself should not be stopped. Or, if we collect traffic jam information from each other and want to be notified that there is a traffic jam around here, it will be very slow communication. In some cases, it will be fine even if it is stopped. So, the communication specifications required for each use case will be for delay, and the level of reliability will be quite different. Even if we say communication for mobility, it will be completely different. I think that such arrangement is certainly necessary as you say.

First, in terms of diversity, I don't know much about communication on the mobility side, but I think there are probably several standards, and I don't think there are many things for each mobility. I think they are aggregated into several patterns, and I don't think there is any need to unify the provision from the roadside infrastructure side in accordance with that, but I think it is impossible to deal with it if there are many things.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.

In terms of digital lifelines, we are talking about autonomous driving, and TEPCO is talking about using drones to check steel towers, but I think this is the favorite. Earlier, there was talk about mobility infrastructure, but in reality, there are logistics, buses, taxis, and private cars that are used there, and there is talk about how to move demand in each region, even locally. In the future, it will be essential to talk about how to invest in power infrastructure and how to manage energy using EVs in the world that utilizes EVs. If we are talking about carbon neutrality by 2050, we must realize the current green innovation. If we don't start it, we won't make it in time. So, even without EVs, I think we are already in the era of thinking about the next infrastructure. So, in terms of the future of autonomous driving with mobility added to the current digital lifelines, what kind of mobility and power infrastructure should we think about next time for so-called GI (green innovation)? That is not the whole story, but for each business operator in each region, for example, demand response, I would like to consider whether it would be good to set up something like that to navigate as a so-called business. So, please take care of it.

Earlier, Mr. Koshizuka mentioned that there are endless combinations when sharing, so I would like to make a few comments. For that purpose, we at DADC will invest in Architecture and comprehensively operate the system. No matter how many sharing schemes there are, we will be able to cooperate comprehensively, so I don't want to worry about that. I would like to ask Mr. Koshizuka to promote various things like unifying Architecture, so I appreciate your help.

Member .

That's exactly what you said, and I just remembered that I had forgotten to say that Architecture is OK because it's being handled by Saito-san, but that's what happened after all. Thank you for saying that we have to enter from Architecture and for advertising the drone issue. Today, I wasn't able to talk about drones, but Early Harvest is also looking at drones that utilize our equipment, and for the time being, first of all, how to efficiently inspect the infrastructure. Our number of workers is steadily decreasing, so we can work together with the infrastructure operators. However, as you said, due to the year 2024 issue, I believe that there is something called autonomous mobility, which is what logistics needs most after all, and drones, so we want to work hard to achieve that as much as possible, and we want to combine energy management with it. As you just said, it's not time to slow down. However, I think we have already gathered a lot of material, so I think we need to speed up from here, or we need to raise it, so I would like to ask for your guidance.
Yes, please.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Here you go.

Murakami Director-General: Toden-san, and the young people behind him have been studying with me for more than a year and a half. There are two things.

In Barcelona, the so-called smart cities are said to be advanced, and all of them use security infrastructure. In other words, there is no infrastructure depreciation cost for security infrastructure, so there are services on top of it, and the moment the security infrastructure is out of reach, the cost cannot be recovered, and the menu of smart cities stops there. In Barcelona, smart bus stops, garbage collection, crime prevention, and so on, all of the road infrastructure is controlled by the police, and the first development of the root is done in four Israeli regions, as I found out from the research, and I think Mr. National Police Agency also heard about it. In the case of Japan, when I thought that it would be difficult to do so, actually, I don't know if the Japanese model is only for electric power, but I personally think that one of the strategies is to replace the infrastructure already owned by wide-area operators and use it. As a representative, Mr. Toden has talked about various things, but if the story spreads, when I hear that the general public knows what is different between utility poles and telephone poles, most of the children start with "What?" and the ground laws are different.

The second point is the logical answer to the divergent approach pointed out by Professor Koshizuka. There are two points. One is the meaning of infrastructure sharing. Apart from whether or not Vice-President Okamoto is so committed to it, in my opinion, in order to achieve the ideal mentioned in the first sentence, the necessary antenna or what kind of antenna is needed is an extreme issue. I think it would be good to think about what kind of antenna should be used based on the policy of whether or not the antenna should be used with the balance sheet of Tokyo Electric Power Company. There are two types of infrastructure sharing: one is to rent the antenna at a low price or let the user use it, and the other is to let the user use the antenna after having the equipment. When I study infrastructure sharing for telecommunications in Europe, there are actually two types. In France, it is quite clear that the latter type, including broadcasting, is being studied. If there is any doubt about the range of equipment that can be owned by the electric power company, I think that if the system is properly organized and if there is any doubt about the range of equipment that can be owned by the electric power company, it should be organized and if possible, it should be brought into a state that is close to the same analogy as the state that allows the use of security equipment, not only electric power companies but also railway companies will probably get on board. tax system

For example, in the National Comprehensive Plan for the Development of Digital Lifelines, the term "smart octopus legs" is used, but all the keywords are actually hooked. People are curious about what kind of function octopus legs have, but they don't know much about it. For example, how to hook things that can be aggregated there. In the same way, in the area of behavior change, although it has passed smoothly, I think Nigiwaihiroba is quite interesting. The other day, on my way home from a memorial service for a friend, there is a place where you can walk on the second floor of Ueno Station. Even in such a place, quite a lot of people gather. If we do not directly connect the part where people gather and the part where facilities gather, but bring it to the composition of n to 1 to n from both sides, we may be able to see a profitable sharing point.

There is no logical answer to this question, so I have no choice but to make a final decision and consult with the government. However, it may be one of the major issues that should be discussed in the "Mobility Roadmap," and if we can see where we can consolidate this, in terms of capital investment and the flow of people, if we do this, we may be able to see capital investment that can be realistically depreciated, I think. I would like to raise the issue of sharing, and why don't we all look for a place where n to 1 to n 1 to put a hook somewhere?

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, This mobility hub is already being implemented in Saitama city, for example. It started with many marchers and sales offices coming in and saying that it would soon be profitable, and how bus operators will use the catering car and garage. Not many people go there, so it's a dirty place. Trunk buses want to use it as a terminal and provide area services on AI demand from there, but they don't take time to make connections, so how to make it attractive is about to start in reality, so I thought it was very important to make it more advanced. That's one thing.

The second one is the 12th slide. I wish I could, but there is a question about how much it will cost, and I don't think it will be scaled. I have a strong belief, but I don't know how to cut costs. In terms of safety, liveliness, and convenience, European cities and American cities have started to take a different approach and have achieved good results, so I don't know how to position it. Please tell me again.

The third point is, as I mentioned earlier with Mr. Kondo-san in Mitoyo City, how to understand the flow of people. I believe that this may actually involve a very big problem, and that is why the Government is collecting data now. We are conducting person-trip surveys of the flow of people, road traffic censuses of the flow of automobiles, public transportation in large cities, and logistics, but basically the survey method relies on people's memories. What we are asking is, where did you go from and where did you go when you were asked to write it on paper? As expected, recently, more and more people are not using paper, but when we ask about DX, it is only web input.

There is so much mobile data coming out in various places. It is not only the public sector but also the private sector, as well as various mobility services. How to aggregate such data is a very big topic, I think. Without such detailed and granular data, I don't think we will be able to fully grasp new problems, challenges, and demands. As I said earlier, the data that is now on paper will be discussed once every 10 years or once every 5 years, and I think such things will also require major reforms, so I ask for your cooperation.

Koshizuka: I would like to ask a question. For example, if I really want to realize something like this, I have a feeling that Tokyo Electric Power Company, Inc., will ultimately have to do the bus business. Is it OK to do that kind of transportation business right now, in terms of regulations? For example, when there is MaaS, for example, if telecommunications carriers subscribe to it, is it possible to integrate that subscription and the subscription of commuter passes? It is probably difficult to do that. So, unless the business of the end user is integrated, for example, gas and electricity are quite integrated in terms of collection. It is possible between energy sources, but if there is a business like when customers pay for something like this, can they pay for transportation, pay for electricity, or pay for electricity and railway at the same time? If there is such a business, I think it will be unified from the economic principle. However, it is all cut vertically, and if I am told that it cannot be done due to business relations, it ends with a picture, so in the end, I feel that it is about how far it can be destroyed.

Murakami Director-General: Denki. We do telecommunications. NTT Finance also handles the collection of various charges, so I think it's because the liberalization of charges was done so quickly that we are doing it before that.

In the case of electric power, I think you are more familiar with this. However, without detailed examination, the range of electric power rates and the linkage between these rates and expenditures are still strictly observed, so I don't think it will be easy. However, even under the current system, I feel that there are things that can be done by off-balance sheet transaction and devising new ideas by other companies. However, since NTT FINANCE has been so generous, I think we should be able to do electric power as well, and I think it would be good to consider reforms as well.

Mr. Saito: I am not talking about Mr. Okamoto, but I am talking about the mobility of green innovation. So, I think it would be a good idea to include Digital Agency's mobility working and invest separately as one of the points of discussion, and to form a basis for what to do next. Probably, if we don't do that, there will be separate discussions on what to do here and what to do separately. There will be discussions on solving social issues, dealing with the declining birthrate and aging population, dealing with the crises of distribution and people's flow, and dealing with the increasing severity of disasters. There will also be digital transformation of various ministries and agencies, as Mr. Ishida mentioned earlier, and it is necessary to deal with them as one aspect of what to do with such a perspective. When the top of the Digi Agency is able to deal with it, all ministries and agencies will be unified. I think even one thing can be done, and I hope for that. Thank you, Mr. Murakami. I would like to add that, as an extension of what METI is now talking about as a data collaboration platform, we are trying to prepare a public platform. This is, if anything, to create an environment where various data can be shared publicly. Not everyone can see it, and in a sense, only those who collaborate services can see it, but not one manufacturer has it individually, and unless we put a public platform in the middle and allow it to handle so-called public data, we cannot optimize it as I just said, so we are talking about establishing such an area.

In a sense, Japanese companies will not be able to handle the information that GAFAM's various platform operators already have, unless we can arrange and align the information that each company has somewhere in the future. After all, we need something like that. We are all talking about competing with GAFAM, but are we going to create a company like GAFAM, or are we going to create services like GAFAM's? I am talking about the need to create a public platform so that the country as a whole becomes, for example, a group of companies with a total market value of over 100 trillion yen, and we need to think about Architecture in this way. In this so-called Total Architecture of Digital Lifeline, we would like to promote such a thing, and it is about personal data in the current public data, including car information, but it will be difficult without Digital Agency taking the lead.

To put it the other way around, this is how personal data can be used in the event of a natural disaster. In the event of a natural disaster, if personal data is switched to be used in emergency response, emergency response can be provided immediately. Therefore, I would like to ask you to talk about this as a matter for Digital Agency rather than METI. Thank you.

Also, I would like to say one more thing that I wanted to say earlier. This is not a modular structure in a sense, but it is difficult to do it in an n-to-n manner unless it is made in a so-called distributed manner, so a modular structure is necessary. Then, if you make n equal to 1 and change it back to n, one of the stories is something like a hub, and the other is something like a backbone line, for example, a highway where everyone shares the area of 1. Probably, it is necessary to build with such a modular structure in mind. When you say modularization, I think you can think of a module for everyone's manufacturing or a module for software, but I am thinking of building the future infrastructure with a modular structure. If you build one in a certain area, multiply it by n, and create a form that can be developed nationwide with this early harvest of the digital lifeline, for example, I would like to create a concept that connects them using the same model and it will be completed soon. This is also a rather systematic story, so I think it will be difficult unless people from Digital Agency join it. Thank you.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you.

That's all I want to do. Thank you very much. Nice to meet you, Mr. Hatano.

Member: . I am Hatano from the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association.

The last time Mr. Yamashita of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA) talked about business issues, but today I am a member of the Safety Technology and Policy Committee, so I will talk about technology issues, and I think this will put a damper on the very heated business discussions, but I would like to take a few minutes to talk about it.
The development of systems related to autonomous driving is progressing very smoothly in Public-Private Partnership. As you all know, in April this year, the Road Traffic Act was revised in the form of specified autonomous driving, which allows Level 4 autonomous driving under specified conditions, and the details of the legislative standards and the Road Transportation Act were revised. Level 4 vehicles can be used as service cars, and we are now in a situation where we are leading internationally.

In such a background, autonomous driving will co-exist in the transportation society. From the viewpoint of sharing the society with non-autonomous vehicles and traffic participants, I would like to look back on how the driving environment related to autonomous driving has been developed. There are four laws on the road, including the Road Traffic Law I mentioned earlier, the Road Vehicle Transportation Law, the Road Transportation Law, and the Road Law. Until now, I think the rules have been built based on the idea that autonomous driving, which is on the left side, is to do my best to follow the rules and ensure safety.

On the other hand, as I mentioned earlier, a transportation society is not formed only by autonomous driving. From the perspective of coexisting with the surrounding traffic participants, the traffic environment is placed in the middle and the "people" who use it are written on the right. However, when thinking about the surrounding traffic participants, I think there is still a lot of room for discussion.

As I write in the upper part on the right, I believe that the development of public infrastructure and the coexistence of participants in nearby traffic, such as compliance with traffic rules, will be very important keys.

In the case of the traffic environment on the previous page, in the case of improving the self-help driving environment, if we try to ensure safety, what we are talking about now as a verification scenario, the items of what kind of testing should be done can explode very much. It is very important for social implementation to categorize and simplify it, and to limit what must be verified to a limited range.

Next, we need a platform where discussions can be held so that we can fully share with society the extent of functional limitations and what else is needed, and we also need to discuss what to do when something unexpected happens.

In addition, in terms of the idea of mutual assistance, if autonomous driving is quite difficult, I think that safety can be sufficiently improved by considering a dedicated area, or by separating drivers from nearby traffic participants and people in the case of the intersection I mentioned earlier, as I heard from Tokyo Electric Power Company. We can also consider using digital technology to link traffic signals, such as separating pedestrians and vehicles, or individually creating right-turn signals. Basically, as shown in the fourth point, if pedestrians and bicycles follow the normal traffic rules, safety can be almost guaranteed, and I think that basic aspects such as how to share them are unexpectedly effective.

In order for local communities to improve the transportation environment, we need to clarify what can be done and what cannot be done, and who will provide support. We believe that initiatives that can be shared and discussed will be very important in the future as we aim to implement them in society.

Based on this background, the JAMA has now started a three in-one initiative to deal with "people," "cars," and "the traffic environment" in order to implement Level 4 in society. In order to implement autonomous driving more broadly in society while giving top priority to safety, it is necessary to shift from a "car-centered" initiative to a three in-one initiative. For this purpose, we are currently considering an action plan on how to tackle the three issues as a whole after extracting the issues for each. As an image, I think it is desirable that "people," "the traffic environment," and "cars" cooperate with each other and firmly protect safety, as shown in the picture at the bottom.

Based on this, we established a study group called the Autonomous Driving Task Force in the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA), and I am the leader of the group. METI has identified seven categories and Level 4 categories. Among them, D and E, which are patterns considered by regular users, are shown in the figure on the lower right. There are many and few safety measures for the traffic environment, and there are three spatial conditions for the size and limitation of the business area: controlled space, separate space, and mixed space. As shown on the left, we tentatively placed examples of business forms for each of these, and based on these examples, we studied what issues there are.

There are a wide range of issues. The vertical axis shows the level of issues that lead to major policy issues, institutional issues, and technical and business issues. The horizontal axis shows the level of issues related to people, cars, and the traffic environment. The results of the study so far show that the issues you are looking at have been extracted. In particular, the items shown in red are important issues that need to be discussed further, and we are currently in the process of exploring them further.

In order to make it as easy as possible to share why this issue actually came up in this in-depth exploration, from the next page, I will show this with an illustration of how autonomous driving will take shape, and the image of the division of roles between cars, people, and infrastructure.

At first, when we try to design a mobile service, we include risks that are difficult to foresee and avoid, and the area where we want to do it is wide as shown in gray on the left. In fact, if the majority of autonomous driving technology is not sufficiently high, the area where we can do autonomous driving is a little smaller than the area where we want to do it. It is shaped like a broad bean.

When we try to implement this in the real world, there are two patterns. One is an approach to make the area smaller and smaller and push it into a broad bean, and the other is an approach to deal with the areas that are still protruding with infrastructure. For example, we educate people about rules, and for example, we create new rules in a smart city. The upper pattern is that infrastructure and people cooperate, and although it is not a desired area, we cover it with a trinity in a small area to some extent and ensure safety.

In the bottom row, if you absolutely do not want to reduce the service area, I think you will first think about increasing the area where the autonomous driving system can respond autonomously. However, if this broad beans does not spread enough, we will add the coverage of the infrastructure here and let people know the rules. However, in this case, depending on the situation, there may be some gray areas that are not completely covered. How to handle the gray areas in the future will be a big issue when we try to provide this business or mobile service.

In this approach, the first problem is how to determine the boundary of the broad bean. One way is to cut the broad bean into intersections and verify it deductively, in other words, from the top down, show it, and prove that it is safe. Another way is to test the broad bean experimentally and functionally, confirm its safety, and then paint it darker and darker. There are several ways to do it, but each has its advantages and weaknesses. In any case, unless the range of the broad bean can be clearly shared, including by third parties, it will be difficult to discuss the next one because it is not enough.

It doesn't matter if it's the other way around, but I think it's a natural approach to reduce the system to this level on the assumption that the infrastructure and human resources will cover it in advance. In any case, we need to make efforts so that we can make a firm judgment on this interface, and I understand that in terms of rules, we are about to start detailed discussions on how to pursue this interface and how to have it examined for 50 places in 25 years.

In terms of expanding the limits of the system, for example, we can increase the speed at which we can drive. Then, we can expand the areas where we can drive and the map. We can also expand the scenes that we can handle, for example, by learning using AI. On the other hand, we can also expand the scenes that can be solved by the power of remote monitoring, since service development involves remote monitoring. In any case, this approach will be fully transparent, not only for those who are implementing it, but also for those who will be screened or used in the future. We need to discuss how far we should make it transparent in the future.

As for the third issue, I would like to expand the range of broad beans. Next, I would like to think about the combination of infrastructure and people. This is something like the ITS pole that Mr. Toden mentioned earlier, which we call active infrastructure. There are some that can be handled by active infrastructure. For example, there are cases where safety can be sufficiently ensured even in cooperation with passive infrastructure, such as adding guardrails, simply adding a right-turn signal, or creating a dedicated lane. Therefore, I think it is very important to have discussions on which of these is the case. In the end, the system has reached this point, and in order to have a common understanding that the infrastructure will provide solid support from there, I think it is very important to have discussions that can firmly pass the baton of responsibility.

This applies to people as well. For example, in a smart city, or in a managed space such as a service in a park to some extent, we ask customers to follow the rules thoroughly. In the end, I think it is very important to be able to discuss how to take responsibility, including what to do if the rules cannot be followed, in order to ensure safety as a whole.

In other words, I think it is very important to have a framework for discussions so that the roles can be divided properly, including the point that it is really OK, because I think it is quite difficult to deal with the points that cannot be dealt with by the automated driving system, since Soramame is the automated driving system itself.

Finally, if there are some risks that cannot be eliminated, in the so-called predictable and avoidable matrix, especially in the upper right quadrant, which is a case that is difficult to avoid but somehow predictable for autonomous driving, to what extent will the risks be reduced? In the overall case, for example, whether we will meet once in a lifetime or not, or whether we will meet every week, we will reduce the risks within an acceptable range after discussing where we will settle down. Zero is theoretically impossible, so in order to reduce risks to a level that is acceptable to society, it is extremely important to identify and build an acceptable line.

Finally, when the discussion is over and the service is finally implemented in society, it is necessary to discuss various matters that may occur during the implementation in society in advance. In fact, it is of course necessary to discuss what level should be met to be accepted in order to launch the service. In the event of a service failure or an incident such as cyber security, how to deal with it, including whether the implementer was originally responsible or whether there was no problem with the rules themselves or the examination in the first place, I think it will be very important in the future to comprehensively prepare for and discuss unexpected things that may happen in the future.

Although it is quite abstract, after such discussions, this is a table that links the issues related to Issues 1 to 5 and Issues 1 to 5 that I just mentioned. Going forward, the industry will consult with relevant parties to further deepen our understanding.

Today, I stated that collaboration between "people," "cars," and "the traffic environment" is extremely important, and that there are still many things that need to be discussed in order to implement this concept in society. I presented points 1 to 5 as points of discussion, and we are now working hard to further substantiate and detail the concept. As soon as the specifics are finalized, I would like to start discussions with related parties and lead to useful discussions toward implementing it in society.

That's all for the presentation.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you.

Thank you very much for your very organized explanation. Thank you very much.

I would like to discuss this with you again, but anyone is welcome.

Akimoto-san, please.

Deputy Akimoto: Thank you for your explanation, .

In the process of autonomous driving, as we fly drones, we have to establish various rules, develop technologies, and improve the environment to ensure safety, and I understand that we are troubled by this.

Among them, I am always telling you about drones, but there is something that I have not been able to hear, so I will introduce it.

For example, in the past, the Civil Aviation Bureau of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (AIP) published by Civil Aviation Magazine asked the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to allow drones to fly in such areas. The CAB asked the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such areas, and asked the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) told the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) told the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (CAB) to establish such a system.

By setting up such a system, for example, when crossing a road, for example, a sign saying that a drone will fly over will be made the same as a pedestrian crossing, and the local government will thoroughly inform the residents that it will fly over, and if it flies over there, it is the same as a controlled area, and if it does not hit a third party, the drone can fly even in rural areas. I think it will be the local government's job to set up a route and so-called road signs. In the same way, for autonomous driving, this is the level of autonomous driving, and there will be a sign saying that it will pass, and I don't know whether it is good for the government or the local government to set up such a system, but I think it will be necessary to improve the infrastructure environment in order to implement it in society in the future, such as gradually increasing such attributes of roads.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , please.

When I listen to this story, it is very similar to the concerns that customers expressed when they installed digital equipment in the past. In the current era, I understand that we need to incorporate this kind of thinking into our social infrastructure. In the future, there will be a System of Systems, and people will say that they don't know who is there or what kind of system is there, so I think this discussion is quite important.

One of them is that when we look at the situation from the perspective of a car, if we think about safe and secure, there will be a demand for infrastructure. Therefore, if we really think about safety, there will be a mutual demand for this kind of infrastructure, and for example, there will be a talk that car safety cannot be guaranteed without certification and certification, and the other is that it would be better to have a conversation between cars. I felt that there might be a talk in which we think about information coordination with surrounding cars, including alarms, in addition to our own self-driving, for self-driving in each car. Are these things included in this?

Member: .

The first point is that there may be safety requirements for infrastructure. I think it is technically possible. To put it simply, in the case of automobiles, there is a standard called functional safety for automobiles. There is a standard called ISO 26262, and there is a safety level in line with the standard, so the most stringent class is ASIL Level 4. However, in most cases of autonomous driving, ASIL4 is attached to the core, so if it were possible, I think it would be possible to require ASIL4 for the infrastructure as part of the system. However, from my experience, I currently assume that it is quite difficult to require ASIL4 for the infrastructure.

Another problem is that the infrastructure is not built only for a specific system. In this sense, it is not clear whether safety requirements can be met. In other words, it would be an excessive demand on the infrastructure side, and it may not be possible to design the infrastructure in reality. Therefore, it has not been discussed so much.

Mr. Saito: I am not talking about Mr. Okamoto, but I am talking about the mobility of green innovation. So, I think it would be a good idea to include Digital Agency's mobility working and invest separately as one of the points of discussion, and to form a basis for what to do next. Probably, if we don't do that, there will be separate discussions on what to do here and what to do separately. There will be discussions on solving social issues, dealing with the declining birthrate and aging population, dealing with the crises of distribution and people's flow, and dealing with the increasing severity of disasters. There will also be digital transformation of various ministries and agencies, as Mr. Ishida mentioned earlier, and it is necessary to deal with them as one aspect of what to do with such a perspective. When the top of the Digi Agency is able to deal with it, all ministries and agencies will be unified. I think even one thing can be done, and I hope for that. Thank you, Mr. Murakami. When I did ETC, the performance of a certain company's in-vehicle device was a little poor, and the reaction of a certain glass of a certain car was slow. The ETC's rush speed was below the initial design value, and it should have been okay to crash into it at about 40km/hr, but I had a collision with it, so I checked it. Then, with that combination, it was still not done properly. If you really try to do it fully automatically, it is actually dangerous if you do not properly verify such a request.

If you don't require that much from the infrastructure, but you want to be involved in safety in some way, then in the case of a failure, for example, it would be bad if it could be operated by humans or remotely, but it would be bad if it could not be managed even if it stopped, so it would probably be a matter of how to manage the system and operation. On the other hand, if you are talking about making it fully automatic to respond to all situations, you would have to make a request for the infrastructure, but there are technical limitations, so depending on the situation, someone else would replace it and get through it. On the other hand, I felt that it would probably be possible to find a solution by organizing the requests so that there is no need to do such a thing, and by designing the total operation.

Member: I think you are absolutely right. The way of doing things changes depending on the required level, so I think there is a required level according to that.

It may not be appropriate as an example, but for example, the existing information close to the infrastructure in autonomous driving is, for example, GPS radio waves. We use GPS radio waves to measure where we are on a map and determine our position, but in fact, with GPS alone, we cannot technically determine our position at all. So, we use it, but we use GPS signals by combining multiple pieces of information to improve the accuracy, and by doing so, we can also know our position. If we use it close to that, we do not completely trust the existing infrastructure information, such as look-ahead information or signal information, but we can use it by adding it in the form of information and making a comprehensive judgment. However, the important thing is that we have not yet discussed whether we should be held responsible if something happens.

Mr. Saito: I am not talking about Mr. Okamoto, but I am talking about the mobility of green innovation. So, I think it would be a good idea to include Digital Agency's mobility working and invest separately as one of the points of discussion, and to form a basis for what to do next. Probably, if we don't do that, there will be separate discussions on what to do here and what to do separately. There will be discussions on solving social issues, dealing with the declining birthrate and aging population, dealing with the crises of distribution and people's flow, and dealing with the increasing severity of disasters. There will also be digital transformation of various ministries and agencies, as Mr. Ishida mentioned earlier, and it is necessary to deal with them as one aspect of what to do with such a perspective. When the top of the Digi Agency is able to deal with it, all ministries and agencies will be unified. I think even one thing can be done, and I hope for that. Thank you, Mr. Murakami. , I think there are some points that we can't give up and other points that we will deal with with such a system. I understand.

Also, in terms of the so-called social acceptability mentioned earlier, or in terms of what to do when something happens, there is talk that it would be bad to attribute all the responsibility to the manufacturer. That is what METI is doing now, which is called agile governance. For example, if a company has been certified and certified in response to a standard, it is not the responsibility of the company, but it must be covered as a whole. In a sense, the companies involved in the accident response are getting more and more involved in the accident response, and it would be bad if they didn't tell us what was wrong, so instead of giving strange compensation for damage, we ask them to provide information anyway. If they don't do that, the system will not be fixed immediately and cannot be improved. That is what we are discussing. So, I felt that it would be good to discuss this kind of agile governance together.

Member: .

From a civil perspective, I think the world of autonomous driving is fairly well organized, but I think there are still some issues related to criminal law, so I would like to discuss them together.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Yamamoto, please.

I'm running out of time, so could you be brief?

Mr. Yamamoto: , I understand.

ITS Japan, Yamamoto speaking.

Could you show me page 6? It's the Trinity. I've been working for a car company, so I'm very familiar with it. It's next to page 6. The mixed space on the lower right. In my recent research on robot taxis in the United States, China, and other countries, there has been a tendency for people to do their best by themselves, regardless of the infrastructure or the environment. I wonder if JAMA is considering various aspects of this mixed space, such as robot taxis. At that time, could you tell me if JAMA is considering various aspects of the Trinity, especially the environment and road-vehicle coordination?

Member: .

Basically, as in the case of the business structure on the left, we are considering and discussing the business structure in the three areas of management space, separate space, and mixed space. However, as we examine the issues, in fact, these three spaces are not so much different from each other from the viewpoint of the trinity, and even if it is a mixed space to some extent, it does not mean that we do not use the infrastructure prepared in the separate space or management space, so I think there is no problem at all. On the other hand, the rule making that is necessary because of the mixed space has not yet been clearly extracted even within the JAMA, so if we cover these three areas, we will be able to discuss them somehow.

Mr. Yamamoto: However, in the case of a mixed space, the cost of infrastructure and various other things becomes nonsense. Therefore, I think that the United States is really doing something like a robotaxi autonomously, and I would like to discuss that in the future.

Thank you.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, I would like to ask a question. Due to safety issues, we don't know what children will do in the "Kodomo Mannaka Society" even now. In Europe, there are very special places, such as near elementary schools, where the maximum speed is around 10 kilometers, or even 5 kilometers. In such places, there are quite a few countries that take the strict liability approach, in which no matter how bad the child is, it is absolutely bad to hit him or her. In that case, what kind of measures will be taken for autonomous driving?

Member: I think it is best not to run where there are children, but I think it is necessary to take measures to guard especially young pedestrians in some way basically.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, At that time, I think this is also a matter of social conventions and acceptance, but is it possible to think that it would be all right if it was just a matter of breaking a bone?

Member: It is difficult to say anything, but I think the first priority is to protect human life, so I think it is important to protect it. However, in that regard, the problem of sudden jumping out of pedestrians is not a problem that only autonomous driving has to solve, but a problem common to all traffic participants, and in fact, I think there is no need to discuss it due to autonomous driving.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , I think there could be a space that requires the concept of strict liability, but I was wondering how you think about the relationship between that and autonomous driving.

Member: As Professor Saito mentioned earlier, in the case of humans, the driver is responsible for all the consequences. However, in the case of autonomous driving, it is not a human but a machine, so in Japan, there is a debate on whether it is possible to assume all the consequences. I think this will come first. As a result, manufacturers with good intentions and service providers with good intentions will have to bear all the responsibilities. From the perspective of social implementation, I think it must be said that it is a barrier to entry.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , I think I have to leave now. If something comes up, I would like to ask you. If there is another discussion after I leave, I will do it.

Murakami Director-General: Would you mind giving me one last word?

Thank you very much, Mr. Hatano. I think you probably made some very difficult adjustments before you submitted the paper, so I really appreciate your understanding.

As for the remaining issues that have not been discussed, I believe that there will be one more issue that we can't do anything about in the end, which is how the insurance system should be, and I hope that this issue will also be considered.

This is not all I am showing you now. However, I think I am going around in a big frame, so I will use this as a base and add the points that are not enough here. I will visualize the logic of the base. In the last episode, I will add a little bit of meat to it. That is not enough. This is not enough. This is what I would like you to do. This is what I just showed you two times ago.

It's going around and around, so it doesn't matter where you start. For example, in the case of self-help businesses, the initial introduction cost is heavy. How can we off-balance this? For example, just an idea, like in the early days of computers, the government or a state-run company would lease things purchased at a low price. Can't we put some kind of off-balance mechanism in place? Even so, we are still in the red, so as you mentioned today, there is a cross-sectional analysis of social impact. Isn't there a mechanism that can be seen not only from the profit of the transportation business?

As you mentioned in Mr. Izumi Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry's lecture, the roads should be classified into three categories: roads viewed as narrow streets, roads viewed as main streets, and national roads and expressways. They can be classified in any way. When the population increases and there is a need to expedite the supply of roads, the national government develops roads, prefectures develop roads where there is a shortage, municipalities develop roads where there is a shortage, and there are agricultural roads and forestry roads. I believe that the management body has been defined as the supply body to pursue the demand. But now, when it comes to how to maintain and upgrade roads, rather than the shortage, it is necessary to explain the rationality of investment by tracing back to the actual demand of each area. Therefore, I think that it will be necessary to discuss how to come up with a plan different from the conventional management body when compiling the report. In terms of what kind of demand should be analyzed, to put it in an idealistic way, I think that the extent to which demand can be read in data will follow.

In terms of infrastructure sharing, there is a discussion on environmental development on the road side, and cooperative control between vehicles and robots. If it is not semi-public, how will infrastructure sharing be involved in the efficient infrastructure development to support it? As a hidden charm, in today's talk, I don't know if it is octopus or Nigiwaihiroba, but instead of making n to n in dozens of ways directly, if you multiply the n to 1 to n structure by something from the flow of people and the flow of facilities, you may be able to see the profitability line.

Nevertheless, in the end, we talked about what to do on the side of behavior and rules, and what I asked Mr. Hatano to talk about at the end of today. At the same time, we probably need to think about the social responsibility system at the same time. This is just mapping. This is not all, but we will probably add things that are sufficient or insufficient for such a logic structure, and we will finally expand it into an agenda list. When we launch the Mobility Working, we will ask each ministry and agency to consider various issues based on what kind of agenda. This is how we mapped it. We are going to discuss it twice in advance, so if you can give us your impressions and comments in the middle of the meeting, we will be able to consult with you again in a way that incorporates your comments when we present it in the final meeting.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, ? I would like to discuss a little more, including Mr. Hatano's presentation or this draft report.

Here you go.

Member Koda: Thank you . Just one word.

Among the presenters so far, I think there were many who talked about the utilization of existing resources. When considering the issues in the field of mobility policy in the future, I would like to see the sharing of mobility, CtoC, such as ride-sharing, and the sharing of mobility related to vehicles. In any case, I would like you to make a huge investment and not only go to new areas such as autonomous driving and drones, but also to make adjustments to current society, such as profitability.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Here you go.

Member Suda: This is Suda from University.

One risk is that Mr. Hatano told me that I am very happy this time. A. Since you are presenting Larb's view, I think we can have a very realistic discussion, and I hope so.

In that regard, I thought that the discussion on the document you just gave me would include business costs, safety and risks.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , I don't think you are thinking about me, but the roads are quite large. The Road Law is really an old public domain management law, and there is nothing I can do about it. I would like to have discussions on it, but not just on roads. For example, the Road Transportation Law and the Railway Enterprise Law, as I mentioned earlier, are really old issues, and I would like to discuss them with vigor.

Otherwise, the various resources we have and the things that create value are really being destroyed, and I think this is really bad. In that regard, I think that the story of Architecture is important, so I hope we can work hard.

Deputy Director-General Hasui: I am Hasui from Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, .

As you mentioned earlier, I wonder how insurance and money-related issues will be related to this. In terms of insurance functions, and investment structure in terms of the extent to which huge investments can be made in infrastructure, I was in charge of the Innovation Investment Corporation of Japan (INCJ), so in that sense, I wonder how we can finance by incorporating equity and debt structures.

Also, there were several documents, but in terms of the relationship with finance, I am the runner-up. What is necessary now and what will produce effects in the future. As Mr. Mitoyo City was the first, I think there may be evidence of how we can measure things that will not pay right away but may go around somewhere in the future. I am a little worried about the fact that we will talk about something strange, something like public accounting. Including that, how far can we separate the runner-up and the target?

Also, talking about risks, I was actually involved in planning the so-called regulatory sandboxes, and at that time, of course, I had the consent of the people participating in the demonstration, but what should I do about the surrounding areas? For example, a similar project was the demonstration of the Segway on public roads. There were only two such demonstrations in Japan, one in Tsukuba, which has now become a super city, and the other in Futako-Tamagawa. Even if I demonstrated it, in the end, it was not stable enough, so it was difficult to fly it, and it did not reach the form of the current electric kick scooter. I remember that there was a lot of discussion about how to explain it to the residents in the surrounding areas, whether it was okay to use signs, whether a briefing session should be held properly, and what should I do about the surrounding areas of the people participating in the demonstration itself.

In that sense, I would like to say one thing. It was in the presentation by the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA), but it is true that in the case of self-driving, as you said earlier, how to deal with the issue of responsibility where there is no human intervention. In fact, a few years ago, there was a lot of discussion within the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP), but on the other hand, I think there is a similarity. The electric kick scooter project that you mentioned earlier has been gradually developed, and now, as long as the speed is below a certain level, there is no need to have a license. In a way, it has advanced considerably. However, when I look at the Internet, there is quite a lot of criticism against it, and in a way, I feel that this is enough for a case study.

I think that the issue of social acceptability, including this point, is very important, and I have said a lot of things, but I have learned a lot from it, so I would like to ask for your continued support.

That's all.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, Thank you.

What do you think?

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, , the Mobility Working that will be completed is a meeting endorsed by Meeting for the Promotion of a Digital Society, so I think we need to have solid discussions so that we can fulfill such a control tower function, and how to involve various people. It is a very big issue, so I think it is really important to have group discussions on how to involve people from government ministries and agencies and industry. I ask for your continued support.

Here you go.

Murakami Director-General: In that sense, I would like to expand the scope of the discussion. On the other hand, if we create a situation like the usual dichotomy, it will be whether we say yes or no, or whether we are a member of this group. With the participation of Digital Agency, Mr. Koda has been working hard since last year, but from the perspective of the demand-side, we will include agriculture even if it is extreme, and in the case of the roadmap, we will take a time horizon of at least five years. Instead, we will not shy away from a relatively bold institutional reform as an agenda. I am not sure if I can really expand the scope of the Furoshiki to that extent, but I will expand it and take it for a long time, and instead, I will not shy away from it deeply. If we make a mistake with the kickoff of the agenda at the beginning, it will be quite difficult to add an agenda later. In that sense, it is now the most difficult time to use my brain to throw in the story, and the logic that I had you look at just one page today, for example, there will be more buffer variables of safety as a whole, and how to make it well, I think we will unexpectedly decide the dynamics of the entire discussion, so I would like to proceed with the discussion after carefully studying it. I will do my best, so please do your best.

Chairman Ishida: Thank you very much, .

I'll give it back to you.

Director Asayama: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for your valuable comments today.

I would like to introduce the schedule going forward. During today's discussion, you mentioned that the national roadmap is extremely important in order to prevent a multiple explosion. As stated in Director-General's address, Digital Agency would like to work on it, but when we try to organize it, five meetings would be quite difficult. Yesterday, I was talking with Director-General, and he said that it would be impossible to make it in time without the participation of the committee members until the sixth meeting. In his address, there was a saying that the meetings would be organized one after another, but I would like to introduce the schedule going forward.

The next meeting will be held on Monday, July 24, and members or guests are scheduled to give a presentation as well. However, since the Government must take this into account when compiling the report, each ministry and agency was originally scheduled to give a presentation or something, but I would like to make arrangements so that I can not only give an explanation, but also talk a little longer about the current situation. In addition, I have received various opinions from members and guests about what should be done, and although I will not go as far as matching, I think it would be best if we could discuss how to move forward. Based on that, I hope that the sixth meeting will be held as a final compilation, and I would like to ask the secretariat to coordinate the schedule from now on. Members will be asked to cooperate once more, and I hope that they will continue to do so.

Thank you very much for today.

Those who participate on the web will also finish here, so thank you very much.