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Mobility Working Group (7th)

Last Updated:

Overview

  • Date and Time: Tuesday, January 28, 2025 (2025) from 16:00 to 18:00
  • Location: online
  • Business
    1. Opening
    2. Business
      1. Initiatives for Social Implementation of Autonomous Driving
        • Status and challenges in the introduction of autonomous driving services across the country
          • President and CEO of TEAR Corporation Four
          • Mr. Tomoki Saji, Representative Director, President and CEO, BOLDLY Inc.
          • Mr. Mitsuhiro Doi, Managing Executive Officer, Nissan Motor Co.,
      2. Status of Study on Measures for Social Implementation of Autonomous Driving
        • Challenges for Social Implementation of Autonomous Driving
        • Status of Measures for Implementing Autonomous Driving in Society
      3. Exchange of views
    3. Closing

Material

Minutes

Director Asayama: Thank you for Now that the scheduled time has passed, we will be holding the "7th Mobility Working Group" from now. Thank you for attending today despite your busy schedule. I am Asayama from the secretariat, and I will be the moderator today. Nice to meet you. Chief Mori will give a speech at the opening of the working group. Chief Mori, nice to meet you.

Mori Chief: Thank you for your help. Thank you all for coming out of your busy schedule. I would like to say a few words on the occasion of the 7th Mobility Working Group. Today, I would like to have an intensive discussion on "Initiatives for Implementing Autonomous Driving in Society." In the United States and China, the business of autonomous driving is quite active, and in Japan, there are reports that robot taxis will run in urban areas in 2027, so I have high expectations. Considering the time frame, I believe it is finally a critical moment and a deadline for the government to consider what kind of initiatives should be taken in line with the timing when robot taxis will become a reality in urban areas. In addition, it is necessary to quickly realize the social implementation of autonomous driving services not only in urban areas but also in rural areas in hilly and mountainous areas. In order to do so, we are in a situation where the current situation could end up as an experiment, so I would like to ask everyone to discuss what kind of strategy we should develop and cooperate in terms of infrastructure, vehicles, software, data, regulations, and services so that we can succeed as a business. Today, we have people from three companies as guests to discuss the actual implementation of autonomous driving in society. I would like to ask you to introduce what you are currently considering and discuss it. In any case, autonomous driving has been used in various fields around the world, so we would like to see autonomous driving in Japan as soon as possible, after carefully determining what type of business this will actually be in Japan, and advancing discussions in cooperation with the professional teams who are here today. I would like to ask for your cooperation and support in realizing this goal. That's all from my side. Thank you in advance.

Director Asayama: Thank you for Thank you. Today's meeting will be held online. Members are requested to keep their cameras on during the meeting and unmute their microphones when speaking. Please mute your microphones when other people are speaking. Spectators are requested to turn off their cameras and microphones.

Next, I would like to check the materials. As described in the agenda that I sent to you in advance, the materials are the agenda, Materials 1-6, and the list of attendees. If there is any shortage, please contact the chat function of teams or the secretariat by e-mail. As for the introduction of today's attendees, due to time constraints, I will distribute the list of attendees at hand, if you don't mind.

Now, let's move on to the agenda. First, I would like to hear from the guest speaker about "the situation and challenges in the introduction of autonomous driving services around the country." First, please hear from Mr. Taira Makoto Kato, President of TEAR Corporation Four.

Katoh: After this, I think you will talk about two initiatives to implement autonomous driving in society. I would like to raise the level of abstraction a little and explain what level it is now.

This video summarizes our efforts over the past three to four years. The first image of autonomous driving was strong in taxis, so in Shiojiri City, Nagano, we also unmanned the driver's seat of a taxi. At that time, we were able to unmanned the driver's seat by following the proper procedures, rather than by obtaining Level 4 approval. We do not want to develop and mass-produce robot taxis ourselves, and we provide all completed systems to automobile manufacturers for design. We are thinking of copying the system we created so that the automobile manufacturers can make use of their manufacturing capabilities. We are also able to add the original technologies of automobile manufacturers.

This video shows how we are working with automakers and partner companies to drive a bus-type autonomous bus. This video shows the bus operating in Kitakyushu Airport. Recently, the same system has been able to drive in urban areas, and this video shows the autonomous bus running on the route that we usually drive in Hiratsuka.

We are also working to make the driver's seat unmanned for buses. However, it is difficult for us to work on our own without consulting with automakers from the beginning. Therefore, we purchase electric buses that can be freely customized by ourselves. We drive these buses in various places under the warranty of TEAR Corporation Four and return the design to automakers.

Regarding autonomous driving, in the scope of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism this time, up to the point I just introduced, autonomous driving is also used in other ways. This is transportation in factories, but it is in a region where the Vehicle Law and the Road Traffic Law are not applied, so it is operating at Level 4 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and it is expected to reach 100 locations. This is something we worked on together with automobile manufacturers, and it is used in actual business. Not only such delivery robots, but recently in terms of competing technologies, in unmanned robot races, the speed exceeded 200 kilometers per hour. Such autonomous driving systems have appeared around us. All of them run and function with the same software. Just the other day, we received Level 4 approval from the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism last year for a bus that we made ourselves, and although it is not a mass-production specification like those provided by automobile manufacturers, it is high-quality, and as for the image, we can make it ourselves if it is 10 to 100 units. Also, this year, we received permission from National Police Agency for specific automatic operation. As you all know, when we drive a bus in general, we obtain a license number, conduct a vehicle inspection, and then obtain a license. Similarly, we need to obtain license numbers for autonomous driving systems, and we need to obtain two approvals and permissions in the image of obtaining a license from National Police Agency.

This video is of an urban area. At the moment we are driving, there is not much traffic. However, since we are in front of a station in Shiojiri City, Nagano, there is sometimes a lot of traffic. There are pedestrians and there are only a few guardrails. Therefore, we conducted a fair amount of evaluation and took countermeasures. We were able to operate the train commercially for the first time in a level 4 situation where there is no one in the driver's seat. Since we were able to operate the train at one location at a time, our challenge is how we can do the same in other areas and how we can create a low-cost business model. We had close discussions with the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism and the people of National Police Agency, but I believe that we can achieve our goal of expanding the train to 50 or 100 locations if we work together as an all-Japan team.

By making such initiatives open source, we are thinking of having partners from other companies, mainly automakers, use it as well. You mentioned earlier that autonomous driving is progressing in the United States and China, but by having partners other than us use it, we believe we can compete even better than leading companies. In fact, if we look only at the economic sphere, I think we are larger.

When you have a company that provides a platform like ours, instead of building a whole autonomous driving system from scratch, as described by the thick arrow on the left side of page 5 in Handout 2, you leave the autonomous driving system to someone like us who provides it as an open source, and you can focus your resources on customization, integration and adaptation at the end, so you can develop a higher quality autonomous driving system in a shorter period of time. That's what we aim to provide.

Self-driving systems in the world are as shown on page 6 of Handout 2. In the lower right, Autoware is expressed as a box, but this is the equivalent of a AI or a robot. Not only is there such AI and robot software, but what kind of computer configuration, sensor configuration, how to combine the software, and how to run in the operation design domain (ODD) are know-how and technical assets, and we don't disclose everything. In addition, it is difficult to create everything by one company, so we are proceeding with open source. As this Autoware is open, we can create systems together with third parties, for example, AI companies with amazing technology. As a result, we can respond to various vehicles as shown in the video. In addition, we need a dataset to further increase intelligence in the future, and this is not something that can be done by one company. Most self-driving companies consider this as a black box, but we are proceeding with it clearly stating that this is where we ourselves will be responsible for partnerships and open source. If we can say that the more we run, the smarter we become, I think social implementation will also advance.

However, open source alone, as I said earlier, does not mean that you can get the most advanced AI technology. Like Waymo and Tesla's self-driving systems, for example, Waymo has invested 2.5 trillion yen now and has only one type of robot taxi. If we want to create a wide range of self-driving systems without using that much capital, I think it would be good to make good use of partnerships like this. This is what we are trying to differentiate.

Page 8 of Handout 2 will be viewed from the perspective of industrial competition rather than social implementation. Technology is not infinite. Yes, Waymo and Tesla are among the first companies to get to a very high level of technology, but it's not as if open source can't keep up at all. About three years later, open source catches up to the top. During these three years, it is important to understand the industry and how to secure the market. Not only are we catching up in three years with open source, but we are working well with our partners to close this gap even further. As an image, if we can reduce the three year lag to 1.5, we will be able to build a business model only by taking measures for the remaining 1.5 years of lag. On that point, we are making efforts, but open source will eventually catch up with advanced technology, so I think the key is how to do business until then. We have received various support in this area. This is Green Innovation, which was subsidized by Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. Recently, support for start-ups has been subsidized by Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. As far as we know, there are 99 Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism projects in Japan, and we are participating in 42 of them. There are places where we are doing it ourselves, and there are places where BOLDLY Co., Ltd., which is next to us, is doing it, and we are working well together.

While autonomous driving, AI, and digital technologies are extremely important, I believe that using open source to advance these technologies is an approach that should be taken by a country with limited resources. At the same time, regarding digital administrative and fiscal reforms, I would like to promote collaboration as we have obtained Level 4 approval for the first time. Also, from the perspective of startups, subsidies are very helpful, but if they become public procurement from local governments, they will be able to generate sales as businesses as startup companies, and in terms of business growth, they will be able to further strengthen their capabilities, and I believe that we will be able to accelerate implementation in society. We will be strongly conscious of these three points going forward.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Next, Mr. Tomoki Saji, President of BOLDLY Co., Ltd., would like to give an explanation.

Saji: Thank you for We have been in the autonomous driving business for nine years since we started in 2016. The needs are really increasing every day. We believe that a system is necessary to expand the market and establish it as an industry.

I believe that the Mobility Roadmap really sums up the Government's very challenging initiatives. As Mr. Kato mentioned in the roadmap, I believe that each business operator has made considerable efforts to improve social acceptability, including the priority initiatives in 2024, making technology and screening procedures more transparent and shorter.

We can't make cars, but we have been producing the foundation for the spread of cars. The more municipalities in need, the less money they have, so we are helping them raise funds, developing an environment where self-driving cars can easily run, including educating residents, and developing human resources who can work on it as a job. Among them, self-driving cars that are remotely monitored are running while being inspected every day.

Under these circumstances, we have also created businesses in various areas, succeeded in turning a profit as a company, and worked to build a cashpoint model in cooperation with various people such as other vendors. After all, we sweat in the integration area. Our business is to have a number of people stick to the local area, make a plan with the local government, set up a self-driving car, and when it finally starts working, we receive a monthly fee for the remote monitoring system.

There are various parts of work to do it. There are more various works to implement in one area, but depending on the player, it will be colored like this. As for the yellow part, we will do it first. If there is someone who can do it, I would like to leave it to the community, but mapping of self-driving cars and paperwork to submit to the government cannot be done in the community at first. However, after starting operation and dealing with local government officials and employees of bus operators, the work will be transferred and as a social implementation, I think it has become a system where self-driving cars can be operated in the community.

Thanks to that, we finally achieved year-round operation and practical application in 16 regions. Thanks to the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism and National Police Agency, we were able to build a promotion system for regional implementation, which is rare in the world. Especially for the local governments that introduced it in 2023, there were chiefs with strong leadership and they introduced autonomous driving for residents.

In addition, in 2024, the level 4 has been spreading to local governments one after another. The number of vehicles has increased and the implementation has become more advanced, and there are areas where green license plates are used for business operations. They are considering a roadmap for such initiatives to further connect to industry, and I believe that as a business operator, we must receive the message contained in the roadmap.

If we are to raise the level from the perspective of continuing to implement regional implementation, we must think about industrialization. I think this issue is how to shift from demonstration to industrialization. For example, I think the automobile industry will continue to lead the country, but I also think it will evolve while collaborating and fusing with AI and information and communications. It is important how to make them win as a growing industry. Furthermore, when we look at it as a transportation industry, there are people working there, so I think it is necessary to create a popular workplace where people can work with a certain degree of peace of mind and a structure where they can advance their careers, rather than having people who have protected the safety of the area for decades, know the way, and are used to responding to emergencies become overburdened and become AI.

In Frankfurt, we have a vision to introduce self-driving mobility to 10,000 cars by 2030. In our vision, we would like to implement 100 cars nationwide. We have already implemented about 50 cars, so we aim to increase the number of cars to 10,000, which is 100 times as many as in Frankfurt. There are three important points for this. Increasing the ratio of domestic cars and improving the quality of cars will lead to reducing difficulties per area. In addition, as digital public goods, we need to develop a foundation that makes it easy to introduce popular cars. With all of these, I think we will exceed the chasm and the industry's potential will expand by 2030. Furthermore, 10,000 cars is a passing point, and we have 80 million cars, of which about 1 million will be self-driving mobility. I hear that there are 900,000 elevators that move vertically, but we are in an era where we need to rethink how self-driving mobility will be sold and how it will be created in various ways, such as fixed-route buses, small mobility, and on-demand shuttles, by slightly expanding the concept of product life cycle and price.

If we were to operate 10,000 self-driving buses, we would like to train 3000 special drivers. We are currently training several hundred drivers, but if 3000 drivers take turns in three shifts, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, and one in the evening, we would always manage 10 buses per driver. If that were the case, we would be able to realize the worldview of operating 10,000 buses at all times. However, we have no intention of increasing the number of cars to 10,000, as you can see in the handout. Such cars have individual differences, and even with the same settings, they do not behave in the same way. Maintenance took a month, and so on. It was a series of difficulties. Therefore, mass production and quality improvement are indispensable conditions before widespread use. In addition, since around 2015, we have been increasing the number of start-ups and overseas vehicles in response to requests from local governments. When there is a sudden request from a manufacturer to raise the API connection fee, there is a risk that the self-driving car will not operate from the next day if the negotiation breaks down. Not only in terms of receiving cyberattacks, but also from a business perspective, I felt firsthand that it is important to increase the domestic ratio in order to stably operate Japanese public transportation.

Furthermore, if all mass-produced vehicles have to be customized from scratch depending on the region, even if the quality is good and mass-produced, it will not spread to other regions. High-quality vehicles will be easy to spread with peace of mind if there are curriculums for how to operate, trained personnel with common qualifications, and a foundation that can always be remotely monitored in an emergency and what kind of service is provided within a few minutes. I also think that the introduction cost per region will be lower than it is now.

With regard to the question of whether a vehicle like the perfect Level 4 would be necessary at that time, there is an opinion that many local governments accept Level 2 based on the feeling so far, and that they do not demand mass production without a human being in the first place because it is kind to have a human in the first place.

The blue graph is the initial cost per region. It costs more than 100 million yen for the car body price, installation of one man-operated equipment, wrapping, personnel training, and mapping route setting. On the other hand, the running cost and maintenance cost include labor costs, maintenance, and system usage fees paid to the manufacturer. If you look at it, the blue part is very expensive. To see how much we can make it reasonable and how it will spread naturally, I think the current cost of public transportation will be useful as a reference. For example, if we introduce an EV bus, a manually operated diesel bus, or a small, Hiace-class on-demand bus, I think there are initial costs and running costs for each, but I made a trial calculation with conditions such as running 12 hours a day. Unless the current cost is reduced to 1 / 3 or 1 / 5, it will be difficult to beat the manual driving mobility on the right in terms of cost. Especially, the cost will be so if it is operated for one year in the first year.

If you add up the costs above and below, it will look like this. Let's look at how it goes down over the long term. If we operate it for 10 years, the cost when the initial cost is 1 / 3 or 1 / 5 would seem to be comparable to that of a manually operated bus. It would be easy to understand if we rearrange it, but if the current vehicle is mass-produced and operated for 10 years when the initial cost is 1 / 3, it may actually be cheaper than the cost when a manually operated EV bus is introduced for the same 10 years. If so, it will be economically rational and we may be able to replace about 1,000 units. The EV bus itself is not yet so widespread, at about 1,000 units. The market for manually operated buses is a little larger, and there are tens of thousands of them, so if the initial cost is reduced to 1 / 5, there is a possibility of replacement. Even if it is reduced to 1 / 10, it will not be as cheap as a small on-demand bus, but we are short of manpower, so if the cost approaches this level, I think replacement will occur. By realizing mass production in stages like this, automatic driving will surely spread in the market.

Then, how can we reduce the cost per vehicle, which is 200 million yen and the maintenance cost, which is 60 million yen, to one third to one tenth? Without that method, this era will not come. Even if we collect the vehicles supplied from imports and venture companies, we can only get about 50 cars a year. I would like to somehow realize a supply pace that can produce 1,000 or 3000 cars a year. If we want to do this domestically, I think it is important how we can promote mass production development as a national policy from 2025 to 2027. There is a real need for social implementation, but I talked about it from the perspective of future industrialization.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Finally, Mr. Mihiro Doi, Managing Executive Officer of Nissan Motor Co., Ltd., who is working on autonomous driving with domestic technology, will give an explanation.

Mr. Doi: Thank you for the various suggestions in . As a car manufacturer, I have come to accept Mr. Kato-san and Mr. Saji-san's talk, but from the side of providing cars, I would like to talk from the perspective of what is necessary to actually develop autonomous driving.

There are three key points. One is that autonomous driving, which is basically limited to simple scenes due to the large number of people in complex locations such as in front of train stations or in the city, cannot be a business. It is necessary to have the technology to operate cars that can handle a wide range of use cases. Second, if we try to run thousands of autonomous driving cars unattended for 24 hours as Mr. Saji mentioned earlier, it is difficult to operate in the real world without considerable system reliability. In other words, I think it is impossible to develop it without mass-production level reliability that can withstand unmanned operation. In fact, safety is not guaranteed only by cars, but a mechanism for maintaining and managing safety in the entire ecosystem for operation is necessary. Third is cost. Most of the autonomous driving cars that are actually running are single-piece prototype vehicles. If we increase production of these vehicles, the business model cannot be established because they are expensive prototype vehicles. I believe that the business model and safety will not be established unless we aim for mass production.

As shown on page 3 of Handout 4, the approach is divided into vertical level 2 and level 4 autonomous driving, and horizontal simple driving cases and complex or advanced driving cases. As an approach, there are two approaches: Type A, in which Level 4 is done in a simple place and moves in a complex direction, and Type B, in which the number of driving cases that can be driven at Level 2 is increased and then the reliability is increased to move to Level 4. We took the approach called Type B, which goes down vertically. In Yokohama, autonomous driving is running almost every day, but in Minatomirai, it is running in a completely mixed state, avoiding stopped vehicles by itself. It is almost in a situation where it can run without any resistance, but it is running at Level 2.

There are talks about turning to the right, stopping at traffic lights, and avoiding pedestrians in self-driving, but as a car dealer, self-driving can be divided into the upper body and the lower body. The upper body is the self-driving software that determines which route to take from one place to another, from Destination A to Destination B, which lane to take in the route, and what trajectory to take in the lane. However, the point is that the car does not move as instructed. Buses and trucks in particular are noticeable, but the behavior of the car changes completely depending on the number of people on board and the weight of the load. If it is heavy, it will be difficult to stop or turn. How the car moves in response to the above instructions is the technology of conventional car dealers, but it is also difficult to self-drive to guarantee safety unless it is designed as a set. It is not an extreme case. For example, if you turn at 60 kilometers per hour on a rainy day, the tires will slip. Stable driving will lead to peace of mind for customers and contribute to its spread.

As an extreme example, please watch the video. On the snow, as you can see, the driver is driving at a speed of 100 kilometers per hour without touching the steering wheel or brakes, turning corners and so on. The reason why we can do this is because the car is self-driving, and we know the condition of the tires, so we adjust the steering wheel angle and the accelerator pedal according to the condition, and drive stably. If I drive in this condition, I think it will spin, but it can be driven in self-driving. I have repeatedly said that without this level of stability, it would be difficult to drive tens of thousands of cars 24 hours a day.

I would like to talk about another matter related to cost. Mr. Saji mentioned a figure of about 150 million yen per vehicle. Why does it cost that much? This is our self-driving controller. As you can see, there are general-purpose controllers connected by countless wires. We load these one by one and modify the cars. If we try to drive driverless, as shown in the pie chart, about one third is equivalent to this modification cost. Also, the base car and the sensors and systems on it will be about one third. Also, if we try to drive in an area, we need a high-precision map. It will take an additional one third for the head count to fit the map. The vehicle modification cost is very heavy, but this figure will disappear when it comes to mass production, so we will approach the figure Mr. Saji mentioned earlier. Often, when we talk about self-driving, some people say that the cost of LiDAR is high and it is difficult to put it into practical use, but it is not that big when we look at it as a whole. If we can put it on a mass production line and make a number of cars as usual, the world will change, I think. Mass production equals reliability, so it is necessary to design mass-produced vehicles, including cost and reliability, for development.

Another thing is that safety cannot be guaranteed by cars alone. We are planning to provide a mobility service in Yokohama that will have about 20 passengers. At that time, we will build vehicles and take charge of the dispatch system, but in terms of operations such as remote monitoring, rescue in the event of a car failure, and daily maintenance, as well as making operation plans with local governments, safety will be guaranteed by a vertical layout. We must create a win-win business model for all players. With cars, we will make efforts to reduce costs. In addition, remote monitoring and emergency response will not be viable as a business if a large number of people are deployed in one district. It is necessary to discuss how to share responsibilities in such a vertical layout. In addition, we need a manual because we have to be careful about daily inspections and customer response. We are trying to create a vertical layout model starting in Yokohama for horizontal development.

Finally, I would like to ask you to consider two points in the future. First, I would like you to focus on mass-production technology to realize safety and reliability that can withstand unmanned operations and cost that can develop services. Second, I would like you to focus on establishing an ecosystem of vertical assemblies that ensure safety. That will be all. Thank you very much.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . After this, we will exchange views on the implementation of autonomous driving in society. First, Mr. Director-General Murakami from Digital Agency will explain the challenges for the implementation of autonomous driving in society.

Murakami Director-General: Document 5. In the population growth phase, goods are sold more and more, so the manufacturing industry will drive the entire Japanese economy. In the field of mobility, there is a powerful industry called the automobile industry, a road infrastructure that supports automobiles and its development authorities, and software industry such as in-vehicle operating systems. Turning to local public transportation, there are service businesses such as taxis and transportation councils in local areas, regulations and rules that support those services and their development authorities, and data that supports those services is required.

Looking to the future, from the perspective of creating a new industry of mobility services, including robot taxis, there are various hierarchical parties involved in the regulation of such services, the generation and sharing of data, and software, hardware, and infrastructure. In this situation, regional services must be the starting point, and consideration must be carried out across these layers.

The three companies that you introduced today also mentioned that they have already worked closely with the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, National Police Agency, and other relevant ministries and agencies. However, if we do not create an atmosphere in which we can discuss these consistent measures across multiple competent ministries and industries at once, Japan will fall further and further behind from countries where these measures are pushed forward by the government and countries where investment funds can be mobilized at once with the support of powerful financial markets.

The theme of this Mobility Working Group is how to coordinate policies across ministries, agencies, and business operators, and I believe that the important point of view is whether we can work hand in hand with you on this vertical approach, including the roadmap.

Please look at page 3. In local areas, I think that various initiatives to support transportation infrastructure, including public ride-sharing, have started to move forward, but I think that there is still some distance between these initiatives and fully autonomous driving. If we extract the essence from the external presentations used by business operators already operating in the United States, we can see a picture that shows a gradual shift from the world with manned driving shown on the right to the world with autonomous driving shown on the left.

For example, I think that ride-hailing and booking apps will first enter not only ride-sharing, but also shared taxis and various forms of public transportation as a common local tool. Next, in order to link it, even manned taxis will gradually enter operations such as AI route searches and drive support, and eventually switch to autonomous driving. I think that such a state transition will occur. At the very least, I think that we must consider the path of industrialization of autonomous driving while looking at such a big picture. In fact, it seems that leading overseas robotaxi operators are explaining so to investors.

I am sorry to be so conceptual, but I have slightly emphasized the areas of cooperation and competition. I have received an example of costs from BOLDLY Co., Ltd., but I am worried that no one will be able to industrialize in a market with a declining population because no one will be able to make a profit in a market with a declining population if the industry is created in such a way that the same software is created by anyone and the same functions are provided by anyone, and they are divided by sales areas and compete for shares as before. Transparency must be firmly ensured, but in terms of common functions, for example, part of the basic functions of MaaS, vehicle reservation and basic operations, I think that it will be increasingly important to design a market that will be widely introduced regardless of the strength or weakness of financial strength as a digital public good that will be required nationwide, including small municipalities.

From that perspective, for digital public goods, which should be a collaborative domain, I would like the public and private sectors to think about a framework that can spread it as cheaply as possible, and then, by utilizing that foundation, how to strengthen the menu of welfare services for the elderly, how to develop a new child-rearing menu and after-school education, and by actively utilizing AI, etc., I would like to see the front of new services in the competitive domain expand steadily. As the collaborative domain rises from the bottom, the investment that is no longer needed will be used to develop the front of services. I hope that the entire country can create an investment cycle that creates a virtuous cycle between the collaborative domain and the competitive domain.

Please refer to page 6 of Appendix 5. For example, roads cannot be easily copied. Things that are highly proprietary and non-competitive, such as road infrastructure, can be defined purely as public goods. The U.N. calls them "Digital Public Infrastructure." To be sure, just because the Tomei Expressway is crowded, it does not mean that the Shintona Expressway can be built right away. However, when it comes to software and data, it is easy to copy, so it does not have that much exclusivity. There is a public economic debate about whether or not to really call them public goods, but in reality, if it is left to the private sector, no one can expect profitability as a result, and there is a problem that it will not spread. Including the awareness of the problem of how to spread this, the U.N. calls software and data that everyone commonly needs "digital public goods."

This point is the point (1) that there are "things that should be jointly developed and utilized within and outside the area". This does not mean that the government will provide full support, but for example, whether it is possible to jointly develop a framework with the private sector that can be introduced at a low price by preparing a scheme such as leasing, or what kind of Public-Private Partnership is necessary, such as the government buying it temporarily and selling it back to the business operator when it becomes popular to some extent.

As mentioned by the TEAR Corporation Four, even if it is provided as free and open source, its introduction and operation must be carried out at a high cost. We need to discuss how to proceed with it. What is important in advancing it as a cooperative area is the agreement among the parties concerned. It will be a problem if we make it cheaper because we think it is a public good and others make money, so I think it would be good if we can organize it while discussing a little about which parts should be improved in a cooperative area and as a public good.

As for point (2), I think the characteristics of each region will come out in terms of whether it is Level 2 suitable for each region, whether it suddenly aims for Level 4, or what kind of demand pattern it will do business for, even if such a common tool is used. I think there is a domain of what kind of variation there is and how the government supports the development of business that matches the actual situation of the region.

Finally, as for Point (3), in urban areas, starting with central Tokyo in 2027, it is expected that commercialization will begin even without financial support from the central government, etc. On the other hand, in rural areas where people want to use autonomous driving technology in traffic areas, it is difficult to expect such commercialization because profitability is low. While we are aware of the problem of how to cover this in Point (1) and Point (2), I believe that there will be discussions on public goods and public infrastructure that are common to urban areas, such as basic technology that will be the basis of road-to-vehicle cooperation, general-purpose computers that can be used for various arithmetic processing, and industrial development to develop CPUs specialized in specific fields rather than general-purpose CPUs.

In the future, I would like to organize the policies that each ministry and agency is currently considering while organizing the focus in this way. We are gradually beginning to see cases where specific events are about to begin, so I would like to see if we can organize the policy menu in time for that, and with your cooperation, I would like to organize the policy while looking at the vertical structure of the industry as mentioned at the beginning.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . I will continue to explain the materials, but I understand that Mr. Koda has plans after this, so please let me know if you have any comments so far.

Member Koda: , thank you very much for your thought-provoking explanation. I would like to ask Mr. Saji, you mentioned that you would like to promote autonomous driving by raising the number by two digits. As mentioned by Director-General Murakami, there are cities and rural areas, where existing industries are sufficiently advanced, etc., but I would like to hear your opinion on what regions and what time periods you would like to expand in a prioritized manner.

Director Asayama: Thank you for I believe that the responses to your opinions will be relevant to the subsequent discussions with the ministries and agencies, so I would like you to confirm them later in the minutes.

Next, with regard to the status of consideration of measures, I would first like to hear an overview from Digital Agency, and I would also like to hear specific explanations from each ministry and agency, including the status of the items to be considered by the Sub-Working Group.

On pages 3 and 4 of Handout 6, among the measures that were decided to be implemented by each ministry and agency in the working group, those starting from the short to medium term are listed. In addition, on page 5 of Handout 6, in relation to the sub-working group, there are measures that summarize the rules for the social implementation of autonomous driving and other measures. These measures are being considered as shown on page 7 of Handout 6, but in particular, the way social rules should be is important, and the ones shaded in green in this table are to be considered by June this year, and are currently being discussed at meetings of each ministry and agency, etc. As for the content, I would like to explain it, but the link to the website is listed on the right side of the handout, so please check it here. In addition, when each ministry and agency explains the items to be considered, I would appreciate it if you could also mention the status of consideration of the measures on page 5. Then, please explain within two minutes for each ministry and agency. First, Mr. Suzuki from Director for Policy Planning will explain the measures of Digital Agency.

Suzuki Director for Policy Planning (Digital Agency): Digital Agency is currently implementing the four measures projected now, so I will explain each of them.

First, (1) "Consideration of Methods to Estimate Demands." The Mobility Roadmap 2024 stresses the significance of approaches from the demand-side, and this measure is in response to that. Please refer to page 10 of Appendix 6. We are currently conducting a survey of mobility demands in the three areas shown on the upper right. The survey is conducted separately for visible and potential demands, with more emphasis on potential demands. Through deep interviews and workshops, we plan to clarify mobility demands that are put up with due to physical constraints and family reservations, and mobility demands that are created by connecting with the community. In parallel, we are considering creating a logic tree to improve well-being in the target cities and towns and selecting key projects.

Please refer to page 9 of Appendix 6. (iv) "Consideration of measures to support financing" and (x) "Consideration of a mechanism to encourage leasing and rental of autonomous vehicles" are being considered at the same time. This is mainly from the perspective of how to reduce the initial cost of autonomous driving and connect it to continuous operation. We have conducted a wide range of interviews with local governments, autonomous driving operators, leasing companies, financial institutions, etc. Based on the results of these interviews, we are currently considering response policies with related ministries and agencies. In the last 19 "Consideration of cooperative control technology for multiple mobility", we are analyzing response measures in cooperation with related organizations and ministries and agencies on issues related to the spread of distributed cooperative operation infrastructure for service robots, not for vehicle autonomous driving technology. Specifically, we are planning to extract issues that would be problematic when multiple service robots of different vendors operate in the same space, identify common rules that will be required, and conduct field demonstration.

Director Asayama: Thank you for Next, please give an explanation from Cabinet Office.

Director-General Kakida (Cabinet Office Office of Science, Technology and Innovation Promotion): Please refer to page 13 of Handout 6. Cabinet Office is promoting four projects within the framework of the SIP Strategic Innovation Program. Private companies, universities, and related organizations are participating in this program and are promoting research activities from basic research to social implementation.

Please refer to page 14 of Appendix 6 for the first item. ⑧ It is "Formulation of Guidelines for the Introduction of Autonomous Driving Services, etc." Here, we are formulating guidelines that will serve as a reference for local governments and others by incorporating the results of R & D in SIP so that efforts to address regional mobility issues, such as the introduction of autonomous driving services, will advance. This fiscal year, we have also started limited disclosure of some of the tools we developed.

Please refer to page 15 of Appendix 6 for the second item. ⑨ "Cost reduction of key technologies". Here, we are conducting R & D for cost reduction, upgrading, and performance improvement of LiDAR systems used for obstacle detection in autonomous driving. This fiscal year, we are advancing technologies such as pinpoint laser irradiation and light reception, or multi-faceted laser irradiation. At the end of this fiscal year, we plan to finalize the specifications of the LiDAR system to be trial-manufactured next fiscal year.

Please refer to page 16 of the third document, Appendix 6. 16. This is "Examination of Infrastructure for Data Integration and Interoperability." We are proceeding with the construction of the Japan Mobility Data Space (JMDS), which will serve as a platform for data integration and interoperability to help in the examination of mobility redesign. This fiscal year, we are testing the provision of some functions, such as an integrated data catalog service that allows users to search data and a digital sandbox that performs simulations in cyberspace, and improving them while listening to users' opinions.

Please refer to page 17 of Appendix 6 for the fourth report. 24 This is "Developing Human Resources to Drive Mobility Services." We are conducting R & D on the development of expert human resources and communities that drive mobility services so that we can continuously consider redesigning regional transportation and managing mobility services. We have made various cases into easy-to-understand stories and some of them are open to the public as Mobility Intelligence Bags. We will continue to promote R & D in cooperation with related ministries and agencies.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . National Police Agency, please.

Director NAGAI (Director, National Police Agency Director-General's Secretariat [in charge of Intelligent Transport Policy]): Next, I would like to explain two points about National Police Agency's initiatives.

The first point is "Examination and Establishment of Traffic Signal Information Technology." Please refer to page 19 of Appendix 6. In preparation for the comprehensive verification test utilizing traffic signal information through various types of mobility, which is scheduled from fiscal 2026 to fiscal 2027, we formulated various requirements for demonstration environments in fiscal 2024. To be specific, we completed the selection of intersections for demonstration and the formulation of requirements for a device to be installed at the Ibaraki Prefectural Police Department, which will be the demonstration stage, and the installation of the device is expected to be completed within this fiscal year. In fiscal 2025, we plan to verify a method for distributing traffic signal information of traffic signals that are not connected to the traffic control center at low cost without laying a circuit in this verification test, and other tests are scheduled for comprehensive verification test from fiscal 2026 to fiscal 2027.

The second point is (iii) "Study on Traffic Rules." Please refer to page 7 of Appendix 6. The Study Committee for the Expansion of Autonomous Driving in Fiscal 2024 is conducting a study. The fourth Study Committee is scheduled to be held on January 30. In this Study Committee, the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association and other developers are exchanging opinions and discussing various traffic rules that are recognized as possible challenges in developing autonomous driving systems. In doing so, we are deepening our study from the perspective of ensuring the safety and smoothness of all traffic participants, including autonomous vehicles. We plan to compile a study report by the end of March this year.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, please.

General Manager Ogiwara (Radio Department, Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications Telecommunications Bureau): It starts from page 21 of Handout 6. Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications is advancing two short-term measures.

The first point is (13) "Study and formulation of V2X communication standard". In fiscal 2024, for the introduction and full-scale demonstration of 5.9 GHz band V2X communication, we are conducting technical tests and verifications such as radio wave interference study and radio wave propagation test, and developing and preparing communication devices. Based on the results, in the next fiscal year, we will cooperate and cooperate with related ministries and agencies and road vehicles related people on some sections of the Shintona Expressway, and we plan to conduct use case demonstration and validation of effectiveness such as provision of merging support information for autonomous trucks and provision of look-ahead information.

As the second point, (14) "Study of V2N communication environments" is being conducted. Please refer to page 22 of Handout 6. This fiscal year, in some sections of the Shintona Expressway, we are measuring and evaluating the actual performance of V2N communication while vehicles are running through the networks of four mobile phone carriers, and organizing and materializing promising use cases and system Architecture in V2N communication. Next fiscal year, based on the results, we plan to proceed with demonstration of use cases and verification of effectiveness of V2N communication on public roads in cooperation with people related to roads and vehicles, including people from related ministries and agencies.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry Bureau of Manufacturing Industries, please.

Deputy Director-General Tanaka (Manufacturing Industries Bureau, Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry): Thank you, Handout 6. For example, we are cooperating with related ministries and agencies to support the development of a standard model for autonomous driving services on the assumption of robot taxis, to demonstrate the update technology of high-precision three dimensional maps, to build a safety evaluation infrastructure for autonomous driving systems, to demonstrate level 4 in mixed spaces, and to create a guide to improve social acceptability.

(3) "Support for the development of autonomous driving systems" will be explained in detail on page 24 of Appendix 6. As was mentioned in Digital Agency, we would like to make efforts to appropriately separate the cooperative and competitive areas and expand it nationwide while reducing costs. I would like to explain what will be implemented with the supplementary budget of 7 billion yen for fiscal 2024. This supplementary budget project consists of two projects related to the cooperative area, "Construction of' Autonomous Driving Standard Model'" and "Construction of' Open Data Set'". In the first project, "Construction of' Autonomous Driving Standard Model'", we would like to create standard indicators that can successfully combine car bodies, software, sensors, etc. developed by different operators, and also develop development tools such as safety assessment methods. In the second project, "Construction of' Open Data Set'", we would like to create virtual data by letting a generative AI learn real data of vehicles and environments around development, and use it for autonomous driving simulations of each operator. While providing it in the cooperative area, we would like to reduce costs and use it in the competitive area, and aim to expand it nationwide.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry Department of Commerce and Information Policy, please.

Okuya Deputy Director-General (Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry Bureau of Commerce and Information Policy): I have taken up two topics in , but I think it would be better to explain everything in one go, so please refer to page 27 of Handout 6. In cooperation with related ministries and agencies, we compiled the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifelines in June 2024. As an Early Harvest Project, (xv) we are conducting the "Development of Autonomous Driving Service Support Roads." We are advancing efforts to demonstrate services in priority areas, and in particular, in the section between Numazu and Hamamatsu on the Shintona Expressway, we have been strongly promoted by related ministries and agencies, and various demonstrations have already started. We plan to demonstrate services for autonomous driving priority lanes toward the end of the fiscal year. The necessity of a mobility hub has been pointed out by the Autonomous Driving Service Support Road Popularization Strategy Working Group, which is examining the Early Harvest Project. Toward the end of the fiscal year, we plan to conduct a survey on what functions to add and how to develop them. We will deepen discussions with related ministries and agencies on how to proceed.

Next, in the Sub-Working Group (10) on page 5 of Handout 6, "Consideration of the scope, purpose, and method of data to be reported and shared". We are conducting data collection on verification analysis for safety improvement on a trial basis. In particular, we would like to firmly consider how to use near-miss information with related ministries and agencies. We are planning to compile these initiatives across the entire Digital Lifeline, and the Autonomous Driving Service Support Road Working Group will present a roadmap summarizing the goals and necessary actions by around spring of this year, as well as deliverables for guidelines that business operators and local governments can refer to.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism Policy Bureau, please.

Mr. Tsuchida (Mobility Services Promotion Division, Policy Bureau, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): (5) We are promoting "co-creation (collaboration and collaboration) of local stakeholders to make the most of local resources." Please refer to page 29 of Appendix 6. In May 2024, we held a regional public transport re-design realization conference with the participation of members from 12 related ministries and agencies. With regard to regional transport initiatives, we have compiled a direction for responding not only in the transport field but also in cooperation with various fields such as education, medical care, and nursing care welfare. Based on this, the 12 ministries and agencies concerned jointly formulated the "Guidelines for Collaboration and Collaboration in Redesigning Local Public Transport" as a common government guideline and notified it to everyone in all prefectures. In addition, in the fields of education, child-rearing, sports, nursing care and welfare, and medical care, we compiled guidelines on how to proceed with individual initiatives while discussing them with related ministries and agencies, and notified them to each local government. For example, it includes how to promote the use of idle time of vehicles and how to promote the consignment and consolidation of transportation services to transportation companies. In doing so, we have worked to raise awareness not only through the departments in charge of transportation, but also through the departments in charge of education, nursing care, and other non-transportation related matters. As for the support system, we originally established a support system for co-creation initiatives under the Co-creation and MaaS Demonstration Project. At present, the Ministry is making all-out efforts to eliminate the traffic vacuum, and we are also obtaining supplementary budgets to support it. Together with these support systems, we would like to maintain regional transportation.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism Logistics and Automobile Bureau, please.

Takamoto Director (Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, Bureau of Transportation and Automobiles): There are three items. I would like to explain (ii) "Verification of the profitability of projects," (xi) "Consideration of methods for evaluating the effects of autonomous driving," and (xxiv) "Ensuring the transparency and fairness of examination procedures." As mentioned by Mr. Katoh of TEAR Corporation Four and Mr. Saji of BOLDLY Co., Ltd., this fiscal year, we have selected 99 projects in all prefectures. In fiscal 2025, we will continue to provide solid support, especially as we aim to plan and implement year-round operations.

Next is "Ensuring the Transparency and Fairness of Examination Procedures." In June 2024, we compiled the "Guidelines for Implementation and Commercialization of Autonomous Mobile Services in Society." In cooperation with the relevant ministries and agencies, we have particularly worked to shorten the examination period. We will continue to work to shorten the examination period in specific procedures going forward.

Lastly, I would like to talk about the status of initiatives by the Autonomous Driving Working Group. Please refer to page 35 of Handout 6. In addition to the three areas of ensuring safety by materializing certification standards, preventing recurrence through investigating the causes of accidents, and providing compensation in the event of damage, we are holding working groups on deregulation in response to business models. Committee members and observers from relevant organizations and ministries and agencies are also participating. The first and second meetings have already been held in 2024, and the third meeting is scheduled to be held in February 2025. In order to handle a wide range of voluminous items, the third and fourth meetings will be held, and then the sixth and seventh meetings may be held. In any case, we aim to compile an interim report in May.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Road Bureau, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, please

Deputy Director-General HASHIMOTO (Deputy Director-General, Minister's Secretariat, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (in charge of the Road Bureau)): We are considering that we must provide support for infrastructure, especially from the perspective of enhancing security and smoothness.

The first point is about expressways. We are preparing for the verification test of self-driving trucks on the Shintona Expressway, and we are firmly considering providing forward-looking information and information on merging support. We have selected two organizations from the public as experimental collaborators, and are currently preparing to confirm the communication of infrastructure equipment. From the next fiscal year, we plan to expand it to the Tohoku Expressway and others to collect more data.

The second point is about general roads. In order to establish technical standards and guidelines from the viewpoint of improving safety, we are promoting verification test in cooperation with projects on the vehicle side. In fiscal 2024, we verified road-vehicle coordination systems in 22 local governments, and we are cooperating with nine local governments on driving spaces. We hope to accelerate our efforts using the supplementary budget in the next fiscal year as well.

Finally, regarding the autonomous driving infrastructure review meeting. We are advancing the review meeting in cooperation with not only the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism but also Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications and National Police Agency, and listening to the opinions of various experts. Based on the opinions received in the working group, we would like to actively advance the discussion.

Director Asayama: Thank you for Thank you very much. There are about 30 minutes left, but I would like to exchange opinions now. First, I would like to introduce the opinions of Mr. Okamoto and Mr. Suda, who are absent today.

First of all, Mr. Okamoto. Building an ecosystem and generating profits for each player are major issues in developing businesses. In order to do so, we need to make good use of the existing infrastructure, human resources, and data, and we need to start by simply building a system. In addition, we have received opinions that it is important to consider mobility as a part of local issues and share it. In regard to Point (3) explained by Director-General Murakami, we have received opinions that it is important to use existing assets, and in Point (1), it would be good to operate by effectively utilizing the human resources of the owner of the asset.

Next, Mr. Suda, I have received your opinion that it is desirable to fully consider the ecosystem and fully consider which areas should be considered as collaborative areas, because the perception of collaborative areas differs depending on the position and some areas may be competitive areas for suppliers. In addition, regarding autonomous driving, there have been reports of overseas entrants, but how to maintain Japan's superiority is extremely important, and it is important not only to refer to overseas businesses, but also to promote initiatives unique to Japan. In addition, I would like to firmly implement those that should be regulated as a public entity, such as road-to-vehicle collaboration. In particular, I have received your opinion that we should not only create rules but also carefully consider the cost aspect. In addition, I have been conducting research so that the effects of infrastructure collaboration can be objectively evaluated, and I would like to introduce it if I have the opportunity. If time permits, I would like to set up such a forum again and again. Lastly, each ministry and agency is considering focusing on the rules for autonomous driving, but I have received your opinion that we should consider focusing on the rules and keep in mind how to realize autonomous driving. That is all.

Next, I would like to ask for your opinions, including those of the ministries and agencies, and the three people who provided the topics today. As time is limited, please first raise your hand within two minutes. Regarding the missing parts, I would like to ask for your opinions at the end, or please let the secretariat know at a later date. When you speak, please use the Raise your Hand button in Teams or the chat function, and when you speak, please unmute the microphone. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Yamamoto.

Yamamoto: If I may add a word, I think it is important to introduce Japanese-style autonomous driving. I feel that it is time to think about what is Japanese-style. I think there are various types of autonomous driving. There are autonomous driving that can be freely accessed anywhere such as robot taxis, shuttle buses, and on-orbit mobility. However, as Mr. Katoh of TEAR Corporation Four mentioned, I think the development of autonomous control technology will progress, although there are differences in progress. However, even if we master autonomous driving, I think it is very difficult to introduce autonomous driving in a state where accidents can be completely solved. Therefore, as members point out, the idea of infrastructure coordination is necessary. However, in creating an infrastructure for infrastructure coordination, the cost of the infrastructure, the necessary budget, and the time required for installation will change depending on which autonomous driving infrastructure is created for, so there are many ways to go up the ladder of autonomous driving. In addition to discussing what to prioritize, I thought it would be good to consider the infrastructure development plan together with it.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Thank you, Mr. Ishida.

Ishida: In particular, I was impressed by the presentations given by Mr. Katoh, Mr. Saji, and Mr. Doi. Although the positions of the three were different, I was relieved to be able to confirm the steady progress and achievements in technology. However, I also think that the presentations by the three had a focus on pure technology. The big challenge in mobility working is how to implement these technologies. I think it is very important for the government to actively think about how to reduce the cost of dissemination and how to promote domestic production from the viewpoint of security. It is a method taken in the past for the dissemination of large-scale computers and advanced medical equipment. As a national policy, a leasing company will be established to create an environment where users can use them cheaply and without a large initial investment. In a sense, I think it was an attempt to present a large market to suppliers and encourage them to invest. I hope you will strongly consider it.

In addition, in today's explanation by the three of them, the focus was on the technology to run automatic driving, but ultimately, the service to be provided is important. It is necessary to explore the real needs for regions and cities, and I thought it was necessary to work on this working group and SIP.

Competition and cooperation are also major issues. In considering autonomous driving, local services, and the role that the Japanese government should play, I believe it is an urgent issue to review the existing division of competition and cooperation from the ground up and discuss it in depth.

Director Asayama: Thank you for Thank you very much, Mr. Akimoto.

Member SUZUKI (Alternate: Mr. Akimoto): I feel that the environmental development to realize autonomous driving in is progressing steadily. Major issues in the social implementation of autonomous driving include ensuring the reliability of vehicles and reducing costs through mass production development. I feel that social implementation will not progress unless these two issues are resolved. For example, in the case of drones, Fire and Disaster Management Agency is promoting social implementation by placing large orders as public goods, distributing them to local governments, and providing training for them. Standardization and type certification of vehicles to increase reliability are also necessary for autonomous driving vehicles. Furthermore, raising the funds necessary for mass production is a major challenge. When mass producing and procuring vehicles that have been standardized and have received type certification, public procurement can be an effective means for using them as public transportation. For example, one way is to accelerate the introduction of such vehicles to local governments by utilizing subsidies such as the 90% subsidy. If the government can obtain driving data in local areas in exchange for the issue of the subsidy, it will help R & D and lead to securing important data for the country from the viewpoint of Minister in charge of Administrative Reform Okada. I believe that this will eventually contribute to strengthening industrial competitiveness. Fire and Disaster Management Agency

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Thank you, Mr. Kawabata.

Prof. Kawabata: The demonstration and implementation of autonomous driving has been progressing rapidly overseas. In today's explanation, I thought that Japan has been very advanced in terms of technology alone, even in light of global standards. The explanations from Mr. Kato, Mr. Saji, and Mr. Doi were very encouraging for Japan. However, the difference between Japan and other countries that have implemented autonomous driving in society and provided data is caused by how much driving environments can be provided. In addition, how to use collected data in simulations is also an important point. Regarding standardization, I think it is a strength of TEAR Corporation Four, but hardware reference standardization is necessary, and I believe that standardization of data and common utilization of data will also be important in future discussions. In autonomous driving, it is important to conduct a large amount of simulations, and demonstration in the real world and simulations utilizing real world data are equally important. Overseas competitors are very advanced in utilizing real world data in simulations and creating use cases. I hope to further deepen discussions on these points in the future.

Director Asayama: Thank you for Thank you very much, Mr. Wakana.

Wakana: I have one point from my position as a re-designer of local public transportation around MaaS. From my experience visiting Sakaimachi and Rikuzen-Takata, I feel hopeful that implementation is close at hand in terms of hardware and traffic rules. However, regarding the issues ① and ② raised by the secretariat, although there are high expectations for autonomous driving in rural areas, it is difficult to introduce it due to financial constraints. When introducing autonomous driving in rural areas, I believe that it is important to use a single vehicle with multiple functions, not only for passenger transportation to carry the elderly and children, but also for shipping agricultural products, courier services, newspapers, and postal services, in order to maintain management. To that end, discussions on the operation business model are essential to recommend social implementation to the next stage. In rural areas, area management considering a wide living area is required, and there will be discussions on how many autonomous vehicles are necessary. Unlike in urban areas, where many people can get on board by exploring the needs, in rural areas, it is necessary to provide multiple services in a single vehicle, and it will be necessary to choose who will be on board and what will be on board. It is important to determine an appropriate management entity and realize multifunctionality. In rural areas, it is possible that the Regional Management Organization (RMO) advocated by Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications and Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries will be the operating entity. I feel that specific research and discussions on who will be responsible for implementing autonomous driving in rural areas are necessary.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Thank you, Mr. Hidaka.

Hidaka Member: I believe that the main topic of the mobility working group this time is autonomous driving. Looking at the overall picture, I feel that there is a mixture of views on the industrial policy of the automobile industry, specifically on how to win the competition in overseas platforms and automobile manufacturing, as well as discussions on how to implement autonomous driving technology in society for mobility services in rural areas. For example, when utilizing the 7 billion yen in support for the development of autonomous driving provided by Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry to solve regional issues, it may be different from technologies that are competitive in the U.S., China, and overseas. It is important to separate the discussion of social implementation and industrial policy and build a portfolio of each approach.

With regard to the level of service and cost sharing pointed out by Mr. Ishida, in the context of MaaS and mobility services, I think it is necessary to raise the resolution, such as whether the burden is paid by tax or by the user, and if it is paid by the user, whether it is paid by fare policy, and if it is paid by tax, whether it is paid by road or regional transportation as a whole. In response, some technological development should be entrusted to companies with proven track records, but others are not, so I think it is better to incorporate this point into the plan.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Thank you, Mr. Muramatsu.

Member MURAMATSU: I would like to make some comments from the perspective of robots. In relation to road-to-vehicle cooperation, we are promoting robot-friendly initiatives in the field of robots, and I feel that the situation is similar to that of autonomous driving. At present, business development is being promoted by robots alone. For example, there are products such as the Roomba floor-cleaning robot. If the element of road-to-vehicle cooperation is added to this, there will be more things that can be done. For example, a cleaning robot that moves across multiple floors will be realized, and cleaning will be possible without the need for manpower. However, remodeling infrastructure such as elevators and flapper gates will be costly, and there are challenges in terms of cost-effectiveness. The utilization of robots is required amid a noticeable shortage of manpower, and I believe that a system of administrative support and mutual assistance is necessary for initial investment. In the end, it is necessary to consider measures to cope with the shortage of manpower while placing emphasis on cost-effectiveness, but at present, utilization with limited initial investment is widespread.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Thank you, Mr. Hatano.

Mr. Hatano: I would like to express my heartfelt respect to the people of each company who gave a presentation today and the people of the relevant ministries and agencies who explained their policies and initiatives, as they have given us truly wide-ranging consideration and we are seeing great results. As the automobile industry, I would like to tell you what I am concerned about. As we confirmed today, we are in a situation where we can expect to see a certain amount of results in the implementation of autonomous driving in society. However, from the perspective of providing sustainable public transportation over the long term from 2030 to 2050, I am concerned that Japan is not yet sufficiently competitive internationally in terms of technology, although it is institutionally advanced. In order to continue to provide mobility, there are major challenges in securing profitability through automation technology. On the other hand, we have not been able to reduce the heavy burden of acquiring the necessary technology. I believe that it will be difficult to provide sustainable public transportation simply by pursuing the fields in which individual companies are strong and sharing the pie. It is a very favorable direction that you are considering the establishment of a standardization model starting with the sharing of data, but I think it is necessary to consider a mechanism to maintain the competitiveness of all Japan by cooperating not only on the framework but also on the content. In order to overcome international competition, it is important to make an all-Japan effort with a leader who can promote it with initiative in the Public-Private Partnership. We believe that this will lead to further progress in social implementation.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Thank you, Mr. Saito.

SAITO: : I'm very relieved to see how things are going. In mass production, it is necessary to build high-quality services that many people use. In order to reduce service costs, it is important to emphasize interoperability from the perspective of services. This includes interoperability between operators and local governments. It is necessary to unify the system Architecture, build a reference Architecture model including services, and organize the Architecture including interoperability. I felt that it is necessary to draw a line between the competitive domain and the cooperative domain. Mr. Doi talked about the service ecosystem, but if there is no interoperability including infrastructure, the efforts of individual companies will be fragmented, and it will be difficult to cooperate between local governments. The autonomous driving we are dealing with in Mobility Working is originally an extension of the context of ITS systems, so I think it is desirable to proceed with consideration of the reference Architecture including essential services as ITS systems.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . We received a variety of opinions, but since time is limited, we would like to listen to the overall discussion. We would like to hear from Mr. Kato, Mr. Saji, and Mr. Doi if they have any opinions that they would like the ministries and agencies to do more of this kind of work. In particular, Mr. Yamamoto talked about where the priority should be given. I think this will lead to the measures that the ministries and agencies should take from now on, so I would like to ask for your opinions on that point as well. In addition, Mr. Saji was asked by the Koda members about the difference between urban and rural areas, where existing industries are well developed and where they are not, and he would like to ask from where the businesses should be developed, so I would appreciate your opinions, including that point. Then, Mr. Kato, could you please start?

Katoh: I learned a lot today, too. There are various stakeholders, and I think there are different opinions from the stakeholders' point of view, but I don't feel pessimistic about the social implementation of autonomous driving in Japan, and I feel that there are quite a few areas where we are making steady progress. There are problems that cannot be solved by technology alone, and I think that a unique Japanese approach is important. Software development is very important, but communication infrastructure and hardware aspects are equally important. The introduction of technology may be facilitated through the development of existing hardware infrastructure such as guardrails, the creation of easy-to-drive environments, and road parking regulations. In order to accelerate the social implementation of autonomous driving, I think that infrastructure development should be promoted not only in software but also in hardware aspects.

Director Asayama: Thank you for Thank you very much. How do you like it, Mr. Saji?

Saji: Thank you for . I learned a lot about the need to make autonomous driving easier to use as a service and compatible with other services in order to popularize it. With this in mind, we, as an autonomous driving transportation trading company, would like to create a trend of collecting a large volume of demand and placing a large volume of orders with manufacturers. In terms of finance, we would like to make a move again to create a scheme similar to the one when large-scale computers became popular, which was hinted by experts. It is difficult to find a solution as to where to popularize autonomous driving first, but as a result, regions with rich financial resources through the Benefit-Your-Locality Hometown Tax, regions in urban areas where the head of the city made a decision and secured a budget, and regions that were lucky enough to win a project from the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism are ahead. Next, we would like to work on creating a system to implement autonomous driving, which is still expensive, in a sustainable manner in regions without transportation, where financial resources and human resources are insufficient. We will promote initiatives including financial resources.

Director Asayama: Thank you for Thank you very much. What do you think, Mr. Doi?

Mr. Doi: Thank you for the various suggestions in . I listened to your opinions as I thought they were reasonable. In particular, I think you are absolutely right about the significance of "uniquely Japanese" initiatives and "design-from-service" initiatives. We are not developing technologies for the sake of technological development, and we consider autonomous driving as a means of mobility that will actually be implemented in society. Although I did not have the opportunity to touch on it today, in the manned mobility project being implemented in Namie Town, Fukushima Prefecture, we are also working on the needs of local communities, the means of transportation needed, and the means of transportation that will revitalize local communities. In rural areas, transportation support for the elderly tends to draw attention, but I hear that there are children who need transportation, and that transportation in areas where houses are far from home is a major challenge. It is necessary to advance local initiatives, including those in that area. On the other hand, in terms of mass production, if long-term demand in Japan and overseas is not guaranteed, we may lose out in cost competition. We would like to continue to deepen discussions on how to cooperate with implementation players and secure quantity.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Originally, it was an exchange of opinions, so we should receive various answers from each ministry and agency, but I don't think we have enough time to answer. Among them, Mr. Ishida gave an opinion on how to respond from a security perspective, Mr. Hatano gave an opinion that in order to ensure public transportation from 2030 to 2050, we need to consider technology as a whole, and Mr. Hidaka gave an opinion on how to respond as an industrial policy. I would like to ask the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry Bureau of Manufacturing Industry if there is anything I can comment on.

Deputy Director-General Tanaka (Manufacturing Industries Bureau, Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry): Thank you, . We have been conducting various demonstration projects. As I explained earlier, we will promote the autonomous driving standard model and open data set as collaborative domains. However, I believe that this will not spread to all local areas, but rather will provide services mainly in urban areas. As to how far we can go into the domain of standardization and cost reduction, we will proceed in cooperation with related ministries and agencies while referring to the opinions of business operators and experts.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . We are running out of time, but through today's discussion, I would like to ask for comments from Director-General Murakami in Digital Agency.

Murakami Director-General: Thank you very much for your time. This time, the Secretariat would like to have a common understanding on how to change the perspective of the industry a little and create an ecosystem with services as the starting point. However, in fact, I am encouraged to see that you have already shared the same idea. Today, I received a lot of opinions, and I think we have quite a lot of materials, so the Secretariat would like to consider again how to properly organize this into a strategy.

Among them, I would like to mention three new issues that I felt as the secretariat. The first is, in the words of Mr. Yamamoto, what is Japanese-style self-driving, and there were relatively many opinions on how to go beyond standardization and narrow down the exit and consider an all-Japan approach. From such a perspective, I would like to think about how we can put it together.

The second is to clarify the actual demand in the Architecture. There was a concern that it would become a technical argument for the sake of technology if the point that it should not be backcast from the demand for services is not clarified. This will come up in the next discussion on transportation trading companies, so I would like to multiply this point as well. In any case, I think the second homework was the ecosystem that can be backcast from services and the reference region.

Third, in the sense of imposing it on ourselves, we need to clarify the mapping of players, who will be in each role, while taking these into account and putting them into the time frame in the spring. Even if we decide what to do, I think we need to clarify who will do it a little more.

There may be a limit to how much I can write, but I understand that I received a message that it would be good if I could narrow down what Japanese-style autonomous driving is, clarify the actual demand in the region, and reach a high-resolution roadmap for the time frame and division of roles. As for the lack of time, the secretariat is also waiting for additional comments. I apologize for not being able to make time for comments while receiving careful explanations from each ministry and agency. I would appreciate your continued cooperation. Thank you very much for today.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . I would like to ask Chief Mori to summarize the working group.

Mori Chief: I would like to thank you for your active and efficient comments despite the long meeting today. In particular, thank you to Mr. Katoh of TEAR Corporation Four, Mr. Saji of BOLDLY Co., Ltd., and Mr. Doi of Nissan Motor Co., Ltd., who provided the topics today. I would also like to thank the ministries and agencies for their reports on the current status of their efforts.

As I mentioned at the beginning, the past one or two years have been extremely important for the commercialization of autonomous driving, and I think it was a valuable opportunity for all of you to share the challenges with each other. The measures of each ministry and agency related to autonomous driving will be organized in working groups one after another, so I would like to ask for updates on the measures of each ministry and agency.

Let me give you my opinion a little bit. When we think about autonomous driving, if we think about all kinds of scenes and all kinds of users, there will be no end to it. Like the 20-kilometer town bus handled by BOLDLY Co., Ltd., it will be realized by remote monitoring, or a 20-kilometer bus with senior human resources on board will be implemented in local areas, and in town areas, we will implement something like a robot taxi. Or, on highways, we will do autonomous driving of trucks. I think it would be better to clearly separate the stage where autonomous driving is realized and the users who will use it and discuss it. And, I think it would be better not to think about autonomous driving being able to operate automatically for all kinds of things anymore. In fact, autonomous driving and unmanned taxis in China and the United States are not like that. It is only good if you stop short of the alley, and I don't think you need to think about going as far as the edge of the alley. This is also something I have talked about many times here, but I hope you will aim for such a place.

In addition, each ministry and agency reported on the status of their discussions and research. If TEAR Corporation Four, BOLDLY Co., Ltd., or Nissan Motor Co., Ltd., which are at the forefront of this research today, find any points that need to be corrected in the research being conducted by the ministries and agencies, or if there are any points that do not require this research, I think it would be difficult for them to say so at this point, so I would like them to talk to me or the secretariat. As for the procurement of the bus, you said it would cost 150 million yen per unit. Considering the research and development costs related to autonomous driving so far, if we concentrate on it, I think the government can actually procure it and lease it to each local government. When I myself talk to the prefectural governors and others, some of them say that if it is leased, it will be over for a short period of time and will end up as a mere show, but if it is in the prefecture, it can be bought. There are some local governments like Sakaimachi where you can actually buy it, so please consider various ways to get it. On the other hand, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) is working on 700 areas that will eliminate the traffic vacuum through public ride-sharing, and this time, in rural areas, unmanned buses are being worked on. I would appreciate if you could tell us whether they are being matched, and I would appreciate if you could tell us about it from next time. In any case, at this timing, I would like you to automate more and more of the things that can actually be done, such as ground handling at airports and cargo transportation in factories. In addition, even in the midst of the labor shortage that Japan faces as a special circumstance in the world, I sincerely hope that this kind of service can be realized.

Next time, I would like to discuss the functions of a transportation trading company, how the transportation infrastructure should be to support it, and how the common infrastructure should be. I would like to ask the members to continue to actively discuss utilizing their respective fields of expertise. Thank you for your enthusiastic discussions today for a very long time. This is my greeting.

Director Asayama: Thank you for . Today was a short time, but as Mr. Chief Mori and Mr. Director-General Murakami said, if you have any additional opinions, please contact the secretariat if you have them, and if not, please directly contact your assistant, Mr. Director-General. In addition, the materials for the plenary meeting will be published on the Digital Agency website. The minutes will be published on the Digital Agency website after you check the contents with the experts. The future schedule is as I mentioned in my greeting, so please refer to page 46 of Handout 6 for details. The next meeting of the 8th Working Group is scheduled to be held on February 25, as I informed you. We will close today. Thank you very much.

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