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My Number System and National and Local Digital infrastructure Drastic Improvement Working Group (4th)

Overview

  • Date and time: Friday, May 13, 2022 (2022) from 1:00 p.m. to 2:30 p.m.
  • Location: Online
  • Agenda:
    1. Opening
    2. Proceedings
      1. Consideration of Total Design and Revision of the My Number Law to Realize a User-oriented public service
    3. Adjournment

Materials

References

Minutes

Date

Friday, May 13, 2022 (2022) from 1:00 p.m. to 2:30 p.m.

Location

Online Meetings

Attendees

  • MAKISHIMA Karen (Minister for Digital Transformation)
  • Koichi Akaishi (Chief Officer for Digital Policy)
  • Kazuto Ataka (Professor, Faculty of Environmental and Information Studies, Keio University / CSO, Yahoo Japan Corporation) * You may not attend the meeting due to personal reasons.
  • Naoki Ota (Representative Director of New Stories Co., Ltd.)
  • Yohei Saito (Director and CTO of Future Corporation) * You may not attend the meeting due to personal reasons.
  • Masahiko Shoji (Professor, Faculty of Sociology, Musashi University)
  • Shigeki Morinobu, Senior Researcher, Institute for Policy Studies, The Tokyo Foundation
  • Takashi Asanuma (Chief Officer of the Digital Agency)
  • Hiroshi Esaki (Digital Agency, CA)
  • Sota MIZUSHIMA (Digital Agency CPO)
  • Taiichiro Tomiyasu (Director-General of Digital Agency)
  • Masanori Kusunoki (Director-General of Digital Agency)
  • Hirotami KIKKAWA (Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications Director-General of Local Administration Bureau)
  • UEHARA Tetsutaro (Professor, Faculty of Information Science and Engineering, Ritsumeikan University)
  • Otani Kazuko (Executive Officer, General Manager of Legal Department, The Japan Research Institute
  • Shuji Goto (President and Representative Director, area Information Technology Laboratory Co., Ltd.
  • Joji Shishido (Professor, Graduate School of Law and Politics, The University
  • Akiko Sugawara (Managing Director and Head of Policy Planning, Keizai Doyukai)

Minutes

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for is on schedule, we will be holding the 4th "My Number System and National and Local Digital infrastructure Drastic Improvement Working Group".

Thank you very much for taking the time to attend.
The secretariat will let you know at the beginning.

Today's meeting is being held online and open to the public. I would like to report that you and the press are attending the meeting online.

If you are a member of this working group or a special member of the working group, please turn on the audio only when you speak, and if you are a member of the working group or a special member of the working group who is attending the meeting online, please turn off the screen and mute the audio. Thank you for your cooperation.

Today, members of the expert community and observers from related ministries and agencies are also in attendance. In addition, Minister for Digital Transformation Makishima is scheduled to attend the meeting from the middle of the meeting. He will participate later due to his official duties.

Now, I would like to begin the proceedings.

First of all, after Mr. Kusunoki Digital Agency's explanation, I would like to hear the opinions of the members. Then, Mr. Kusunoki, please explain the materials.

Director Kusunoki: Certainly.

Now, I would like to explain about the total design and the consideration of the My Number Law toward the realization of user-oriented public service based on the materials.

First of all, with regard to the policies for considering "Total Design," as you can see on page 3, since the Cabinet decision at the end of last year, we have been working to realize an architecture that is highly flexible and interoperable while avoiding the componentization of common functions, loose coupling of systems, and duplication of functions, in order to realize the completion of procedures in 60 seconds in smartphone, the launch of a new service in seven days, and at the same cost as in private sector, and to thoroughly consider the perspective of users when considering the future image.

As for our future consideration, we are currently considering three steps. The first step is to consider a mechanism for the utilization of information held by local government. The second and third steps are to explain our future policies on the utilization of information by the public and private sectors through individuals and on back-office cooperation between public authorities. I would like to explain these in this order.

Next, on page 7, as I presented last time, as an advanced example, Kitami City, for example, has realized a comprehensive contact point that "does not leak, does not write, and does not get passed around." To this end, the front service side properly uses resident information to realize that there is no leakage and no writing. To support this mechanism, the business delegation and business flow related to procedures are arranged between departments. In addition, there is an example that the common DB can be used to utilize the resident information held by each section.

In the future, regarding the utilization of information held by local government, for example, we will make it possible to properly utilize the information that residents themselves and households in local government need when they receive push-type services. To this end, it will be necessary to have a function that can immediately obtain the necessary resident information from the local government system when providing services.

In addition, we are considering making it scalable, including the development of APIs, so that not only Mynaportal but also various entities, including private service, can handle front services.

This is being considered in two steps. Even before the unification and standardization of core business systems, we will make implementation possible through the introduction of an application management system. In addition, in fiscal 2022 and beyond, we will conduct demonstrations on Government Cloud and perform technical validation. In fiscal 2023 and beyond, based on the results of the technical validation, we will consider the order in which local government will provide environments in which the functions can be demonstrated in advance.

This was also proposed at the third working session, but in the future, we would like to aim to realize a system in which we can complete a series of procedures in 60 seconds by properly guiding all the necessary procedures at the first entrance, minimizing the amount of input, and completing a series of procedures in a lump, instead of passing them around and completing each procedure individually.

I would like to talk about future considerations related to data sharing platform in order to actually realize this.

In terms of information utilization so far, we have basically been conducting efficiency in public authorities through back-office cooperation between administrative operation as shown in the blue part on the left.

In the future, we will realize this through the use of information by the public and private sectors through individuals, but I believe it is possible to consider a mechanism in which residents themselves use the information held by local government and other organizations in procedures for other public authorities and private sector. Whether it is a certificate of residence or a certificate of tax payment, as a matter of course, if it is paper, it has not been realized in digital at the present time. In digital, we will acquire such certificates in digital data so that they can be used in various procedures not only by the government but also by the private sector. By doing so, we will drastically eliminate the hassle and make it possible to perform procedures easily and quickly just with a smartphone, and we will position this as a "new way of thinking that goes through everything."

In terms of a specific image, for example, when changing jobs, it is necessary to fill out more than 10 types of documents with the same information, including procedures related to social insurance. In addition, it is necessary to obtain certificates from the original workplace and submit them in paper form, but it is possible to complete the procedures digitally by having the person request the information about himself / herself in digital data from the source of the job change and submit it to the new workplace. By doing so, I believe that it is possible to simply complete the procedures digitally, which has taken more than one hour to prepare the documents and fill out a large amount of similar family structures.

Including this, in the future utilization of information, it will be possible to clearly position that one's own information can be used digitally via the person, and to realize the utilization of information that contributes to the improvement of convenience for the people. By being able to do this, I believe that it will be possible to simplify the procedures from the perspective of the people, who are the users, by making it possible to use the system in advance of the review of each system.

In such a case, it is necessary to consider the division of roles between the public and private sectors in information management, the identifiers to be used, methods to ensure the authenticity of the information so that it cannot be tampered with at hand through the person in question, and a mechanism to ensure the data connections of the information based on the will of the person in question, including ensuring traceability so that information is not submitted without permission in an involuntary manner.

We recognize that there are cases in which the use of information is ensured based on the intention of the Principal, the scope of information that can be used and cooperated via the Principal, and cases in which cooperation should be prohibited even with the intention of the Principal.

On the next page, at the previous Working Group, there were opinions that there are questions about the casual use of My Number as an ID, and that not only the government but also private sector should be the main provider of services, but the discipline of business operators who can handle information is necessary, and that transparency is extremely important, and that ensuring controllability is extremely important.

From the perspective of cooperation with private sector, the main issue is that it is necessary to enable individuals to flexibly use a combination of services. It would be nice if private sector could also use the information of the individual in its possession in cooperation. In addition, if it becomes possible to quickly provide a variety of information digitally, I believe that it will lead to various benefits to be provided in the future, resilient responses to sudden situations such as disaster responses, and strengthened functions as a digital safety net.

The ponte below shows the various UIs that can be realized while making good use of the common functions that private service needs in cooperation with administrative systems.

In addition, we will make it possible to use the information held by private sector for digital exchanges and procedures within a series of frameworks, thereby realizing what has been possible only with paper.

The second main point is about identifiers used in public and private information utilization through the Principal. There is a mechanism to provide the Principal with information about the same person, which requires an identifier to uniquely identify the Principal. At the same time, it is necessary to ensure privacy.

For example, in September last year, the so-called ISO, Building blocks for identity management via mobile devices, recently standardized the quality standard for identity management using smartphone. Regarding the requirements for identifiers, there are examples in which the requirements are clearly defined that the use of identifiers is limited to the necessary scope, that different identifiers are used in each domain, and that they are properly managed by users. I think it is necessary to carefully consider this based on international discussions.

Next, with regard to the information linkages between public authorities, as shown in the figure below, in the blue area, we will make it possible to refer to accurate and up-to-date information on each Japanese citizen to the extent necessary for administrative work, reduce the number of documents to be attached to the procedures, and in the future, when Digital Agency replaces various systems, we will expand the data connections between public authorities in blue, including the basic design and how it will be handled, and we will steadily use certificates issued by the administration for other procedures. information linkages

I would like to ask you to turn it over. Based on the unification and standardization of the local government system, it is possible to utilize information in the local government and perform inter-agency data connections in a consistent design. The elements to be realized here are not only the inquiry and provision of data so far, but also push-type notification and update. Cooperation within the agency, cooperation between organizations, and external connection with the private sector will be realized in a consistent design. At present, it takes a considerable amount of time to change the data standard once a year, but the specifications will be made so that the addition and deletion of items can be made flexibly.

In addition, at present, it is difficult to handle relationship attributes in both the information provision network and the Juki Net, but by being able to handle the relationship attributes and the relationship between people, we will be able to communicate clearly about households and proxies. In addition, we are thinking of realizing API cooperation between systems in real time on the cloud with a flexible and simple configuration.

For example, if you change your account information, it has been difficult to update it unless you apply for the change at each institution. However, we will complete the update without taking necessary procedures. In addition, if we make it possible to immediately grasp and update the information we hold when a change occurs, we believe that it will be possible to eliminate the need for regular inquiries about all information.

Then, we will thoroughly implement the use of the My Number under the current system for what kind of people we can use this information linkages as a system. At the same time, we have been using the My Number system mainly for social security, tax, and disaster response, and we are showing some examples of patterns in terms of what principles can be used to expand the use of the My Number system.

For example, we will conduct a wide range of administrative work that requires the registration and update of personal attribute information. For example, there are ledgers that require the identification of various individuals, such as automobile registration and real estate registry, but it is conceivable that they will be widely used. On the other hand, it is conceivable that the use of My Number will be limited to those who have the effect of efficiency for procedures, such as foreign nationals residing in Japan and Japanese nationals overseas, or the use of My Number will be allowed for those who have the effect of national certification for the purpose of the nature of the procedure, such as proof of digitalization. I believe that there may be various ways of thinking.

For example, with regard to matters that can be used as legal purposes, for example, among the procedures in pensions, the My Number has not yet been widely used for iDeCo, and although it has not yet been used for procedures related to condolence money in the event of disasters, it is possible that the My Number will be fully covered where it can be done or where it is allowed as legal purposes.

In addition, in the current situation, in various ledgers that existed before the My Number was established, individuals are identified by name, address, etc. For example, in automobile registration, real estate registry, and commercial corporation registration, identification is performed by name and address, so if you move, the link will be interrupted. It would be great if everyone could register a change of address in a timely manner, but in reality, there are cases where registration is expensive and is not updated. If such cases can be managed by the My Number, in addition to simplifying the procedure, it may be possible to eliminate the procedure for changing individual information, such as the registration of a change of address. As a result, I think it is possible to think that the reliability of base registry can be improved.

In addition, as shown on the next page, for example, it may be possible to organize the procedures so that Japanese residents and others can use their My Number when they complete the procedures. By doing so, it will be possible to simplify the procedures, including reducing the number of attached documents.

Third, as was discussed at the time of the first Cabinet decision two years ago, it is possible to consider allowing the use of My Number for each use cases, including national certification.

In the end, how can we realize a digitalization where no one is left behind through this total design? From the perspective of further strengthening the digital safety net, local government will be based on providing information and other information promptly and reaching out to people in need. In addition, the scope of service provision will be greatly expanded by improving the convenience of procedures through the individual, such as collecting various documents that are still in use, exchanging them between the public and private sectors, and writing them individually.

In addition, in the end, there are many people who are really in trouble, and it is difficult for them to complete the procedures themselves, but I believe that everyone can benefit from the service by doing things digitally, such as acting on behalf of someone who has been able to do only at the counter.

Finally, with regard to the future schedule, regarding the utilization of information on the front side, we will conduct prototyping and technical validation on Government Cloud within fiscal 2022. In addition, we will consider the necessary law for the utilization of public and private information held by other organizations through the end of this fiscal year.

With regard to back-office cooperation, as shown in the blue letters on the right, based on these prototypes and technical validation, we will consider a consistent design. In particular, we will consider necessary law, including the revision of the Numbers Act, and advance the schedule to submit a bill in 2023. We are considering a schedule in which systems based on legal development will be implemented and systems based on law will be developed sequentially during twenty twenty-five.

Finally, through this series of discussions, we will make it possible for communication between the government and residents to be conducted in a digital and interactive manner. In addition, there have been many cases in the past where it was difficult to reach out to the digitally disadvantaged unless they were finally face-to-face. In the digital world, we will create a world in which no one is left behind. It is possible to easily know the services available to you, and you can complete the application by indicating your intention on your smartphone. In addition, I hope that various entities in private sector, not just the national government, can propose UI and UX and realize more convenient services while making good use of the data that private sector has.

.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for , Director-General, thank you for your explanation.

At the back of the page, as a reference material, I have posted an excerpt from a report on a commissioned survey of common number systems overseas. An outline of the survey is also posted on the Digital Agency website, so we would appreciate it if you could refer to it.

Then, has Minister Makishima entered?

Mr. Makishima: Thank you, Mr. Yes. I'm sorry for being late.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for Not at all.

I am sorry to ask this out of the blue, but I would like to receive an address from you. Thank you very much.

Mr. Makishima: Thank you, Mr. .

There is a plenary session of the House of Representatives, and I am participating in it with the Senior Vice-Minister. Thank you very much.

At the 4th My Number System and National and Local Digital infrastructure Drastic Improvement Working Group, I would like to thank all the experts who gathered today.

So far, in this working group, we have discussed the concept of the total design of the system across the country, local government, and private sector, as well as how to promote the utilization of information to realize the completion of procedures in 60 seconds on a smartphone. We have received opinions such as that public authorities should develop a mechanism to utilize the information of itself and households held by Digital Agency as a common function in order to enhance the convenience of residents who perform administrative procedures, such as pre-display of application information and procedure guidance, and opinions such as points to be noted in the case of the utilization of information via the person from the viewpoint of the people.

In addition, in relation to the use of My Number and its expansion in information linkages, based on the proposal from local government, we have received opinions such as thorough utilization of My Number in the three fields of tax, social security, and disasters, utilization of My Number as a foundation for realizing social diversity including foreign nationals, and promotion of digitalization such as certification.

Based on these opinions, I believe it is important to further consider how convenience can be improved in implementation from the perspective of the people.

Today, we have already provided various explanations, but based on the main points raised in the discussions so far, I would like to present our future policies and basic views, and I would like you to continue to discuss from the perspectives of both the legal system and the system necessary for realizing services that are highly convenient for both residents and local government staff.

At this timing, I would like to hear your opinions on the direction of utilization of this total design and Priority plan that will be shown in My Number System, which is scheduled to be updated.

On that basis, we would like to move on to discussions on the development of an environment with specific legal systems and systems toward realization from the next time. I would like to ask for your frank opinions today.

That's all from me.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for , Minister of Makishima.

Then, I would like to hear the opinions of the members and special members, including the content of the materials. I will appoint them, so if you have any comments, please use the show of hands function and let me know. Thank you.

Then, Mr. Uehara, please.

Uehara Special Member: This is Uehara .

I would like to once again point out some of the materials I received today, including what I have been saying.

First of all, I gave my opinion last time, and on page 17, I talked about what will be used as identifiers. This is a very key issue in terms of total design, particularly in terms of extracting information from local government and using it in public-private partnerships, so I believe that solid discussions are necessary here.

My basic opinion, which I have attached as a reference material at the end, is that at the time of the Juki Net and when the My Number system is decided, we have sufficiently discussed whether it is better to summarize it by comparing it with the systems of each country. Based on the fact that the current My Number system has been established, I believe that when expanding the system in the future, we must expand it after everyone understands what will happen by expanding it.

In particular, as Director Kusunoki explained in the middle of the meeting, as a result of the so-called terminological arrangement in the International Standard, so-called agency numbers are divided, and there is discussion of a large framework such as a mechanism for information linkages while reducing the privacy impact by using temporary numbers such as the so-called Pseudonym. When a new system is to be established in this era, this opinion should be taken into consideration, and when expanding the use of My Number System, I think that the expansion of the use of My Number, not My Number System, which tends to be done immediately, should be advanced while giving some consideration.

In fact, I think there are places where the existing JPKI serial numbers can be used. Or if information linkages can really be connected immediately, there are places where you have to be very particular about ID. So, I would like you to design this carefully.

In particular, in terms of cooperation with private sector, My Number is still a burden on private sector in the sense of management of a specific personal data, and in terms of utilization itself, it will increase the burden on private sector. In addition, even so, I would like to point out at the outset that I am concerned that this will be a discussion that could undermine the premise that I have been explaining to the people that I will properly protect them.

In addition, I would like to speak from the perspective of local government. I don't think this discussion will end here alone, but I think it is important that when local government and the national government cooperate, especially when a system is designed to utilize the information held by local government, ownership of the information does not seem to move on its own due to the connection of the systems.

In particular, the system that Digital Agency is trying to provide in Government Cloud will be used by local government. If it is understood that the ownership of the database will be transferred to the government at the time of use, it will be difficult for local government to use the Government Cloud system.

Of course, there may be some laws that do not mind this, but in general, I think it is appropriate to proceed with the local government system after firmly separating ownership and processor, such as borrowing only the processing system from the government, which local government has had until now, including ownership. This is also not clearly included in the materials, so I would appreciate it if you could organize it when proceeding.

As for the details, from the local government side, in the "Elements to be Realized" on page 22, it was written that in information linkages between public authorities, in order to ensure real-time performance, we should bypass the existing intermediate server and do it directly. This is a variation of local government, that is, there is a difference in scale of more than 10,000 in local government from Yokohama City to Aogashima Village. In terms of the nature of each having such data, I think it is impossible to have a server that can provide data 24 hours a day, 365 days a year in areas below a certain scale.

This may be solved by Government Cloud, but considering that it is difficult to maintain the intermediate server 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, I think it was decided to use the development system. So, first of all, it is not necessary to eliminate the intermediate server. However, depending on the scale of local government, it may be possible to use the intermediate server as a backup.

In closing, I would like to say that while this discussion has been going on, local government is the most concerned about rough schedule. twenty twenty-five is a major rough schedule, but it is true that there are local government that are difficult to keep up with, so I would like to make a quick decision on what to do by twenty twenty-five, and review what should be reviewed in the schedule that is a little bit difficult.

That's all.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .
You pointed out the need for thorough discussions on identifiers, and there were new concerns and points such as whether data ownership is in local government or in the country, and there were also points from the perspective of local government. Thank you very much.

Next, Mr. Morinobu, nice to meet you.

Member: I think it is very wonderful that the paper you explained this time mentions a digital safety net. The year before last, the Maina WG Summary said, "We will also consider registering contract information on freelancers, etc., which is increasing, in Mynaportal, and a mechanism to obtain revenue information through platformers." It is strange to say this to everyone, but the specific image of this includes clarifying the problems caused by the work of gig workers by having contracts registered in Mynaportal. In addition, this is a story that includes design in benefit. My major comment is that I would like you to explain this area as if you had a more specific image and proceed with it in the future.

If I were to be more specific, from this year, it has become possible for platformers such as Sato-Furu and Mynaportal to cooperate based on the consent and intention of the individual. In the future, for example, in the case of freelancers, as I mentioned earlier, if you work via an intermediary platform such as a food delivery service delivery person, if you promote a Mynaportal in which you can obtain your own revenue information based on the intention of the individual through the of the individual, between the ordering client and the platformer, I think it will be possible to cooperate with the revenue information or income information and various safety nets such as the benefit. information linkages

Various benefits have been provided due to the COVID-19 pandemic, but I believe that it will be possible to provide more precise and effective push-type benefits, in which the national and local government governments can determine the households of the needy and low-income people and provide the benefit to the pre-registered accounts without application.

If Digital Agency is to be involved in this field, I believe that Digital Agency will be involved in the policy formulation of each ministry and will enhance its position as a government agency.

In the future, if we create something like a digital household account book in cooperation with the private sector Household Account Book App, everyone will use it every day, and I think that the acquisition of cards will further advance.

One more thing, in connection with the point I just made, I would like to say a few words about the term push.

Is it push-type administration? I think the meaning of this term is extremely diverse. For example, the term "push type" appears on page 8, which you explained earlier, and the content is pre-display, notification from the administration, and automatic input. On the other hand, as you are aware, Prime Minister Kishida has repeatedly said that the special benefit for low-income families with children, which is 50000 yen per child, which was taken this spring, is a push type. What is this? Currently, low-income families who receive child allowances, etc. by application do not need to apply for it, and the payment is made to their accounts. Therefore, even if it is a push type, there is a huge difference from the stage of pre-display to the stage where the money is transferred without application at all. I think the term "push type" will become a keyword in a sense in the future, and it is necessary to use it differently a little more carefully.

In promoting the push type, I believe that there will inevitably be problems not only with personal data but also with the confidentiality obligations of public authorities. I believe that it is necessary to discuss why tax information is automatically handed over to the welfare Division, and to cancel it in law. Therefore, I believe that it is necessary to discuss the push type, which will become a keyword in the future, more thoroughly.

In any case, I think it is very gratifying that the term digital safety net has been followed up with a triangular figure drawn in this.

That's all.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for , thank you very much.
You also proposed a specific image of the digital safety net, and pointed out that we should be more careful about how to use words for push services. Thank you very much.

Next, Mr. Ota, nice to meet you.

Member: Thank you, Thank you for giving us the opportunity to speak.

There are three main points. The first point is close to Mr. Mori, but in the summary this time, the predecessor of this working group had quite a few different measures, but the concept of total design and the perspective of users are clearly stated at the beginning, so I think it is very good. However, I would like to see the perspective of users in that part be more organized, so I think there are two main types.

First, as Mr. Mori said, there are situations where safety nets are necessary, such as raising children, senior citizens, gig workers, and national crises such as the COVID-19 pandemic. In many cases, policies are implemented in the form of benefit. Second, there are life events. I think they are quite different in nature, such as job change, relocation, and marriage.

The former is very urgent, and the number of people subject to it is 10 million or even 100 million. The latter is several million people. Therefore, the urgency and the number of people are completely different, and in the same way, it is easy to be confused about revising the legal system or investing in the system for the sake of the users. I think it will change depending on the use cases of the use situation. In particular, when it comes to how to do it, the former is a safety net. I think it is better to focus on responding quickly and efficiently to 10 million or tens of millions of people, so I propose that it be divided.

It is the second point.

It is a big idea of Priority plan, and the cost is about the same as that of private sector, but I think this is very good. However, since there are not many data shown, I would like to have basic data by summer.

This time, it will be a mechanism to exchange information on the back side, but it will cost more than several thousand yen to exchange one piece of information for a long time on the information provision network system. It is easy to understand when calculating this. If you divide the annual operation cost by the annual number of cases, it will be several thousand yen. It is impossible to exchange data at the cost of several thousand yen, so it is several tens of yen now, but I would like you to calculate the cost properly. Also, on the front side, which I did not cover today, Mynaportal, unfortunately, still costs more than several thousand yen, for example, for one stop childcare. If we find out, there are no citizens who use it for such things, so we would like you to calculate the number properly. In particular, although I have not discussed it today, on the front side, Mynaportal has a utilization ratio that can realistically achieve the cost equivalent to that of private sector. I wonder if we can really achieve this. To achieve this, the current utilization ratio is, for example, several percent for one stop childcare. However, to achieve this, I think 20 to 30 percent of people will need to use it. So, please give us a sense of reality, and if it is difficult to do so, as Mr. Kusunoki said earlier, private sector has many applications for childcare. It is used by hundreds of thousands of people. Including cooperation with such organizations, I would like you to write an example that can be operated at the cost equivalent to that of private sector. My second point is that I would like you to consider the cost.

My third question is, I would like to discuss this by the summer, but I have not considered My Number Card very much. There was a discussion at the digital society Concept Realization Meeting this week, and among them, for example, the JPKI renewal is my fifth birthday, and I have to go to the local government office because I have to confirm my identity in person. If it becomes a matter of linking it to an insurance card or a driver's license, there are about 10 million people who are eligible every year, so I think it is a problem that 10 million people have to go to the local government office near their homes to renew their JPKI. So, I would like you to consider the usability of the card.

That's all.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for Ohta.

I would like to thank you for your comments. I would like to know how you think about the users when you say the user's point of view, and more specifically, whether you think about the scale of 10 million, tens of millions, or even less.

Also, I think we need to consider the Mynaportal, My Number Card and front desk service based on the figures. Thank you very much.

Next, there will be people who will leave in the middle of the session, so I will move around in order, but Mr. Ohtani, thank you very much.

Ohtani Special Member: I am Ohtani of the Japan Research Institute. Thank you very much for changing the order.

This time, I received an explanation from the Secretariat, and there have already been points pointed out by various members, so I would like to explain only the points that do not overlap.

First of all, around page 16, I would like to ask you to consider a mechanism that enables pre-display by simplifying the input, and to realize the convenience immediately, but I think there are points to keep in mind.

Depending on the content of the office work in public service, I think the scope of information about oneself for individuals will differ. For example, whether information about a spouse is included in one's own information or information about a child will differ depending on the type of office work and the situation in which it is required, so I would like to ask you to organize this in detail in advance.

Specifically, in the case of domestic violence and other cases in which even family members are not allowed to disclose their addresses, the person in charge of the administration is currently making efforts to prevent this from happening, but I believe it is necessary to consider a mechanism that protects privacy without placing an excessive burden on the person in charge.

Next, as some have already expressed their opinions, regarding the schedule up to the twenty twenty-five, I believe that various amendments will probably be made after the prototype is built by the end of this fiscal year in order to actually apply it. If that is the case, it will be apparent that there will be a considerable burden even if local government, which is able to respond sequentially, will be the one to be added to the implementation. Therefore, I believe that it will be easier for local government to work if the plan is shown at an early stage to what extent the standard indicators to be set by the prototype will be covered.

My third question is "The Future of public service (Image)" on page 32. It is an easy-to-understand illustration of how inclusive public service should be, and I saw it with great sympathy. In particular, I believe that the ability to understand the processing status of services in real time is due to the characteristics of digital technology, and I would like to realize it and have high expectations for it.

However, if we look at the whole picture, I think the dependence on devices for exchanging information with smartphones is still a concern. Whether or not you write it in this picture, I think it is necessary to consider a system in which public service does not stop even if devices are lost in the event of disasters as a sustainable system.

That's all from me. I'm sorry to bother you first.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .

You pointed out that there are points to be noted in the pre-display as well. In addition, you pointed out that attention should be paid to the early indication of rough schedule to local government personnel so that there is no burden, and to what dependence on devices should be done in the event of disasters.

Thank you, Dr. Ohtani.

Next, I will change the order, but I have heard that Mr. Shishido also has time, so I would like to ask you to speak first. Thank you very much.

Special Member: I am Shishido of the University of Tokyo, . I apologize for changing the order of my remarks.

I would also like to make three points.

First, as I have heard from the members of the Committee, I have been thinking that it would be useful to classify and organize services and systems from the perspective of what users need to do and what they do not need to do by thoroughly considering the perspective of users in the true sense.

Specifically, this is often the case with power, but there are also users, or administrations where everything is done without the knowledge of the people, and even though they do nothing at all, if you want to know, you can see that this has happened to you, including the possibility that you suddenly noticed and looked at your bank account and found that your money had increased.

Third, there are some procedures that I need to take the time to complete, such as pressing the "Approve" button. In the end, there are some procedures that I need to take action on, after first knowing that I am going to take such procedures or that I have to do so. Broadly speaking, there are about four types in terms of process, but I think it would be good to sort out what will be eliminated by this total design, and on the contrary, what will be improved in convenience by enabling the people to know from the users' perspective.

As for the part of not being aware, I think it is often said in the example of Estonia that you can know if you want to know, and that the status of yourself is well known. There are such aspects. Also, as discussed here, when you search for information from yourself, even if you do not know that there is a benefit system, you will be asked how about applying here in a push type. Or, even if you do not press a button, money will be transferred from the beginning, so the meaning of the term push type has a range, and this is the same as what Mr. Ota said earlier, but I think it is necessary to sort out such points a little.

In other words, depending on the procedure, no matter how digital completion it is, there are probably types of administrative procedures that require the person to think carefully and apply by himself / herself. I think there are naturally administrative fields where it is required to some extent that the application is completed without the knowledge of the person, but there are also fields where it is possible to know about it after the fact by digital means.

To sum up, I think this is actually a story that is very closely linked to UI/UX, so I thought it would be good to pay attention to such points in future specific discussions. This is my first point.

The second point is, needless to say, that the discussions here are not only about improving the convenience of users, but also about enhancing the functions of public service, increasing the quality and quantity of local governments, in particular, public service, which is becoming extremely difficult due to the decrease in resources, will be able to do, for example. In addition, as you just mentioned, there is an aspect of discussions about making it possible to provide detailed services to diverse people who have not been able to reach them so far and to their needs who have not been able to reach them. There is considerable agreement between the part about making various services more convenient and the part about improving the functions of public service, but at the same time, there are times when there is a gap. However, I believe that the future administration should also make an appeal to ensure that this is necessary.

I believe that there is a part that is more related to the action of power than the provision of benefits, a part that secures the accuracy of the government and provides it as social infrastructure, and a part that is related to the issue of qualification and notarization.

In addition, with regard to the areas that are not mentioned above, as you mentioned earlier, there may be areas where the administration provides services in the same way as private sector, or where it is possible to have private sector provide services, depending on the location and the services. I believe that a sense of security will emerge when the overall picture becomes clearer through this discussion.

Finally, this is the third point.

I believe that it is an extremely important perspective to launch the concept of a digital safety net head-on. In this regard, the points to be noted, particularly regarding points (ii) and (iii), have already been summarized on pages 16 and 24 by the Secretariat, so I think that it would be good if you could carefully consider them in the future.

In particular, if you attract discussion to analog safety nets instead of digital safety nets, you may be scolded because you are a lawyer, but when I think about safety nets, I think they are safety nets that include people who want to use digital safety nets but cannot.

In that case, in a broad sense, the digital safety net is the foundation of the safety net in CPS, which is a fusion of cyber-physical. In other words, when the safety net operates and people are in poverty or in various extremely troubled situations or disasters, digital alone may work well. At the end, I think there are various people using digital as a foundation, such as local governments administrative officials and NPOs. At the end, I would like the term digital safety net to be used with the image that people use it to newly realize a safety net.

In that sense, I believe that it is necessary to discuss the Digital Safety Net, including how to properly deal with the issues of data security management, security security management, and human security management, since the digital completion of the Digital Safety Net will not necessarily be complete. Rather, if the use of the Digital Safety Net by human beings will result in the operation of the Digital Safety Net by sandwiching the infrastructure and human beings between people in need, services will increase, and I would like to reiterate that there are people in private sector.

Overall, I believe that this report sets a very good direction, and as I have stated many things, I hope that you will continue to consider this matter based on your various opinions.

That's all from me.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .

We received an opinion that we should organize it from the viewpoint of what users must do and what they do not have to do.

In addition, when it comes to the digital safety net, Digital Agency has stated that no one will be left behind, so I would like to proceed with consideration while properly valuing such a perspective.

Now, may I move on to Mr. Goto?

GOTO Special Member: I'm GOTO from area Information Technology Research Institute. Nice to meet you.

There are some parts that have already been stated by the members, but I would like to state your questions and opinions while touching on some of them.

First of all, on pages 8 and 9 of the materials, I would like to talk about the utilization of information held by local government. It is very wonderful that the residents of use cases can use the information when they receive push-type services. I believe that it will be easier to understand if you explain more specifically what kind of local government is assumed. I believe that this will deepen the understanding of the people of Japan and the discussions of the people concerned in Okinawa.

This is my second question. Problems with identifiers in the use of public and private information.

I believe that Mr. Uehara pointed this out accurately at the beginning. I believe that is absolutely correct. If I were to say it in a way that I can understand it, if you could explain by example what will be used as identifiers and in what form, this does not have to be definite, but if you could explain by example, would it be easier for the people of Japan and the people concerned in local government to understand it? I felt that it would be difficult to understand with the explanation on page 19.

The third one is in information linkages.

As Mr. Uehara pointed out at the beginning, I have been in the world of local government for a long time, so if the mechanism of information linkages is to be implemented in real time without the intervention of the current intermediate server, etc., a considerable amount and number of information will be notified and provided, which will impose an extremely large load on the mechanism system for data exchange. I believe it is important for you to explain how to realize such a mechanism with a certain degree of outlook.

The next is to expand the field of use of My Number.

This has been pointed out by various members of the Council so far, but as you all know, there have been various discussions in the process of bringing the current situation in My Number System to the current state. Based on these premises, I believe it is necessary to carefully organize the work by applying whether or not it is necessary for each individual work.

On the other hand, some of the administrative work that has been done under the administrative system premised on paper until now may be unnecessary due to the appropriate use of the My Number or the digitalization. For example, the Current Status Notice of the pensions recipient has actually disappeared, and some of them have been greatly reduced. I believe it is important to identify such things once, even on a trial basis, and add them to the items to be considered or specify the benefits.

And the fourth one.

This is also what Mr. Uehara pointed out, and the implementation schedule of Total Design, as Mr. Ohtani said, I feel that this schedule is very difficult from the perspective of those who have been at the local government site. As a so-called prototype system, it is very important to show the future image to the people of Japan, and I do not deny that, but a prototype system is only an experimental system, and it is not a goal but a midpoint, so to speak, so in that sense, I do not think it is very important. I would like to point out again that it will take a certain amount of time to actually create a system that can be used practically at the national level. Please show us the overall schedule including these.

In particular, local government is working on the standardization of business systems toward twenty twenty-five, and some of you are groping about it while struggling to make specific responses. In that sense, I believe that when setting a schedule for implementation of Total Design, it is necessary to fully consider the burden on the local government site. In that sense, if you build a schedule that can be realized as a whole, including the standardization and standardization of systems, rather than setting a schedule, the people of Japan will understand it well and accept it without problems. I believe that local government will also be able to advance efforts to prepare for that, and I am very concerned about this.

Finally, there are three main points in the various materials: (I) the utilization of information held by local government, (ii) the utilization of information by the public and private sectors through individuals, and (iii) information linkages between public authorities. At the same time, more specific arrangements and proposals for these areas will be presented, thereby deepening understanding. I believe that it is very important to touch on the details to some extent in order to improve the overall situation.

It is often observed that introducing many new systems at one time or making many major changes results in various obstacles and problems, extension of repair time, or failure. In reality, this often happens at private sector companies, financial institutions, and foreign countries. It is necessary to consider so that this does not happen.

It is extremely difficult and not easy to visualization the whole picture of a digital system, so I believe it is important to be even more careful.

That's all from me. Thank you very much.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for Goto, thank you very much.

In various situations, for example, you pointed out that you would like to discuss the utilization of information held by local government and identifiers by giving more specific examples. You also pointed out that the burden on local government should be taken into consideration, and that it will be necessary to carefully consider the schedule so that it is not unreasonable, especially in the case of a major change to the system. Thank you very much.

Next, Mr. Sugawara, please proceed.

Special member Sugawara: Thank you, .

First of all, I would like to express my support for this paper, which summarizes and sets forth the direction from the very important perspective of efforts centered on services for the people, reduction of development costs through common functions such as administrative systems within the central government, within local government, and between local government, and responses to crises such as infectious diseases and natural disasters.

First of all, in terms of information utilization by the public and private sectors via the Principal, I think it is a major point that the basic idea is to be able to use one's own information digitally via the Principal.

In addition, I would like to make a comment. If the purpose of the use of private sector's retained data is to provide benefits that may occur in the future, to respond to emergencies such as disasters, and to provide a safety net for that purpose, it has a high public nature, and the main body should be the government. Therefore, I think it would be good to proceed in the form of proposing and providing solutions from private sector. As an example, if you want to simplify the procedures for changing jobs, it would be easier for users to use it if you could obtain the personal data of the government from the intranet of private sector Company. However, it would not be particularly profitable for each private sector Company, so I think it is necessary to implement an incentive scheme such as system modification. I think it will be important to how much the benefits of private sector Company can be appealed to users, from the viewpoint that users include not only general individuals and employees but also private sector Company.

As for cooperation with private service, when private sector uses administrative data to design services, each service is mainly provided by private sector companies, so it should not be a problem for private sector to bear the cost of system modification. Therefore, I don't think there is a problem with the format in which each private sector company freely creates services, applications, and so on, but it is necessary to clearly indicate the items in the database that public authorities can provide. If we have expectations for private sector's innovation, it is best to have many data items open, and I think that private sector will use them to solve social Issue and to take positive action if it feels that there are benefits through them.

In addition, I think the issue of identifiers, which you have been expressing your opinion on, is extremely important. I think there are various Issue and viewpoints, such as privacy impact. In that case, it goes without saying that the viewpoints of individuals and users are important, and regarding the pros and cons of using My Number, for example, there are various viewpoints on whether multiple identifiers are good for individuals, and whether the use of My Number can be expanded under the current restrictions of a specific personal data. Therefore, it is necessary to promptly proceed with consideration.

As for "administrative operation that can expand the information linkages in the backyard," there are examples of iDeCo procedures and cases involving foreign residents and Japanese nationals overseas. For example, it is important to have a system in which each local governments can use My Number without newly designating a regulation for public assistance for foreign nationals living in the country.

The digital safety net is epoch-making, and I hope that it can finally be realized. This is also an initiative that is very easy for the people to understand, so I would like it to be advanced as soon as possible. As Mr. Mori pointed out earlier, I would like the leadership of Digital Agency to quickly consider the development of a mechanism not only in terms of hardware but also in terms of software, for example, how to define how to position households. At the same time, I believe that tax credits with benefits, which have been discussed for many years, will be effective in emergency response in times of crisis if introduced as in Europe and the United States.

Finally, with regard to the future schedule, in an era of intense technological innovation, I think it is good to try and error and think while running. However, the point here is that it is important to proceed with such demonstration experiments while making a validation of the effects. In that case, if you are aware of the personal perspective in addition to the technical validation, I think it is necessary to proceed while making a validation of the service utilization rate and satisfaction level of the people. I would like to request that the mechanism of the validation of the effects and the system for it be promptly established.

That's all. Thank you very much.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .

Some of you praised us, but I also think you gave us Issue. For example, I would like to thank you for your very specific proposal on how to cooperate with private sector in terms of the division of roles. In addition, as Mr. Ota said last time, I think we need to pay close attention to the utilization rate and satisfaction level.

Mr. Shoji, would that be all right?

Shoji Member: I'm Shoji . Nice to meet you.

There are three main points.

The first is about identifiers, which have been a topic of conversation. I don't think it is possible to use the My Number itself, but I thought that there were many expectations for the My Number. However, for example, if the My Number is used in local government now, it will be handled very carefully and with a sense of tension, such as by separating the network. If the use of the My Number is expanded, I think it is possible that extremely strict management and various restrictions will be imposed on those who are involved in it. Therefore, I think that we must make a smart design. There was a talk about cereals, but I think that if we do not make a smart design about where and how to verify identity, the number of places where the My Number is used has increased, but on the contrary, it may become inconvenient.

The second is about the schedule, which has been mentioned several times, but the goals of the spread of My Number Card and online procedures have been set by the end of fiscal 2022, and there is talk of the unification and standardization of the local government system by the end of fiscal 2025, so that is a big part of my thoughts. However, it has become clear that there are actually various difficulties, and it is quite difficult to achieve in reality, and there are new stories emerging, so I think it will be necessary to show a realistic line at some point in time, or to ask local government to reach this point by the end of fiscal 2022. For example, I think it would be good if we had a plan by the end of fiscal 2013, but I think it will be necessary to show something like that. If we pull it to the limit, Okinawa, which is working hard to meet the deadline, will be taken off the ladder, so if we are to consider such a thing, I think it will be necessary to consider a realistic line from an early stage.

As for the third point, for example, on page 24 of the materials, there is a place where discussions for thorough use and expansion are arranged. I think it was last time, but there were very easy-to-understand purposes such as My Number System, tax, social security, and disasters. In the arrangement on page 24 this time, it is arranged by the characteristics and features of office work, but I thought it was difficult to understand what the purpose was.

As for the keyword that came up today, I had a feeling that the digital safety net would be a fourth field and fourth purpose equivalent to it. However, since this is a new term, the definition is ambiguous, and it is possible to call it a digital safety net for everything. If so, I feel that it is very paternalistic and unnecessary. I think that will need to be worked out in the future.

In addition, considering the social background and situation around the time when the My Number System started, there must have been a pensions record issue at the root, and I think the purpose was to ensure transparent administration. In that sense, in order to increase transparency, My Number can be used for cooperation between public authorities. At the same time, if it proceeds, efficiency and convenience will also be realized. I wonder if such an explanation is possible.

Finally, I think it is very good to have this kind of discussion in a public place, even though there are general participants this time.

That's all.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .

We received opinions that design should be done wisely, including whether identifiers will be more burdensome. Thank you very much.

I have received your opinions, so if you don't mind, I would like to hear any comments from Director Kusunoki.

Director Kusunoki: Thank you very much for your guidance today.

They were very active in discussions on identifiers. Looking back, I remember that at the time, there was a discussion about My Number, and I, as an engineer, was actually not a number with a short number of digits, but there was a way to increase privacy. At the time, it was said that a 12-digit number was necessary to be able to transcribe on paper. In light of the progress of digitalization, it was said that paper would never run out, so the number had to be easy to type.

Digitalization itself is making significant progress, and as discussions on digital safety nets are becoming active today, we will consider how to specifically fulfill Digital Agency's banner of a digitalization where no one will be left behind. There are ways other than paper, and among them, the number of technical options has increased significantly compared to five or ten years ago.

On the other hand, of course, administrative consistency is also required, and there is no doubt that the paper will remain for the time being, so we must firmly consider how to actually circulate it. Based on what I promised to the people of Japan when I started My Number System, I will continue to seek an ideal form while receiving steady guidance on what requirements should be met. Please continue to provide guidance.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .

I have a little time, so if you have any other comments.

Mr. Ota, nice to meet you.

Member: Thank you, .

I think it would be good to do something like a study group. The digital safety net, which has been talked about a lot today, is, as a representative story, useless unless the income situation is properly understood. Isn't the income information that the government has now basically old? Ideally, how much income there is monthly, and in this day and age, income changes a lot, so considering working styles and the current environment, I think. In short, in order to obtain the latest income information, we need to consider cooperation with platform operators in private sector, for example, companies that provide personnel and salary systems, so I think it would be good to create a study group separately. That is one thing.

Another point is the perspective of users. Rather than being a study group, I think it would be better for Digital Agency to have more intelligence. For example, two years ago, the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry conducted a very good project to promote cashless payments. What Tsuwaki-san, as a leader, found through proper analysis was that cashless payments were not used so much in rural areas, nor were they used by seniors or women, as I had originally thought. They were used quite equally in urban and rural areas, regardless of age or sex. These basic facts are quite important, and we sometimes talk about them in terms of images. What is the true image of users? They have come up with very good policies that emphasize the importance of users. I think it would be better for Digital Agency to have more details.

That's all.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .

If there are any comments by Parliamentary Senior Vice-Minister for Foreign Affairs Seiji Kobayashi and others, I believe Chief Officer of the Digital Agency Asanuma is also in the chamber. If it is all right with you, Mr. Chief Officer of the Digital Agency, could you also make a statement?

Asanuma Chief Officer of the Digital Agency: Thank you very much for your comments.

In particular, from the perspective of users, we asked for opinions at the digital society Concept Conference, and I believe it is extremely important to share the current situation in a solid manner based on data and facts, and to share with everyone how the measures we will take from now on are actually producing specific effects. Therefore, I would like to focus more on data-based and fact-based measures based on various opinions. Thank you very much.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .

Now, may I speak to Mr. Hiroshi Akaishi, Deputy Director-General of the International Trade and Industry Ministry, who is serving as the chief of the working group?

Director General Akaishi: I'm Akaishi .

Thank you very much for your time today. We had a very good discussion, and after 4 rounds of discussions, the direction is gradually coming together, and the discussion seems to be getting more focused. In particular, we are talking about identifiers, intermediate servers, arrangements and schedules.

As someone else said, rather than making a final decision, we need to acquire intelligence on the people of Japan and take it into account. We also need to take into account the situation in local government. Since there are places where we cannot see, we would like to see continued input of information. At the same time, international trends are extremely important, and although they are closely linked to materials, we have issued several principles internationally, such as Unlinkability, Pseudonym, and User binding. I believe that we must carefully consider how to create this identifier, incorporating various factors. I would like to see further input from you.

By the way, I also received greetings from you. Based on today's discussion on the realization of digital society, which is scheduled to be updated soon, Priority plan, I would like to continue it firmly. I would like to ask for your continued guidance. Thank you very much for your guidance today.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .

Mr. Makishima, if you have any comments, please let me know.

Mr. Makishima: Thank you, Mr. .

I believe that I was able to receive very detailed information today. As Digital Agency gave us feedback, I myself think that one of the assignments is whether or not to consider a new study group based on the recommendations I received today.

Also, when I talk about digital society, I often use expressions such as push type, safety net, and privacy. I think the Asanuma Chief Officer of the Digital Agency that I commented on today is one of my areas of expertise, and I would like to organize it while receiving the wisdom of teachers. Thank you very much.

Councilor Kimura: Thank you very much for .

That's all for today's agenda.

This is an administrative communication, but the materials and minutes of this working group will be disclosed on the Digital Agency website. The secretariat will contact the members and special members to confirm the content of the minutes, so please check it. In addition, after the meeting, the secretariat will give a briefing to the reporters on the outline of the meeting.

Regarding the next schedule, the secretariat will contact you again.

With that said, I would like to close today's working group. Thank you very much for taking the time out of your busy schedule.