2024 (2024) The 4th Policy Evaluation and Administrative Project Review Expert Meeting

Overview

Date and Time: Friday, August 30, 2024 (2024) from 11:00 to 12:00
Location: Online
Summary of proceedings
1. Opening
2. Proceedings
  1. A review of the discussion so far
  2. Direction of improvement in each business
    1. Common corporate certification platform (gBizID)
    2. Government Solution Services (GSS)
    3. Base Registry Business
3. Adjournment

Materials

Summary of proceedings

Following the opening statement by the Secretariat, Minister for Digital Transformation Kono delivered an address on the occasion of the opening of the plenary session, and the meeting proceeded under the chairmanship of the Secretariat.
First, the Chairman of the Advisory Panel explained the recommendations for project improvement based on the report compiled by the Second Advisory Panel on Policy Evaluation and Administrative Project Review and the discussions at the Third Advisory Panel on Policy Evaluation and Administrative Project Review (Disclosure Process). After that, the persons in charge of the projects reported on the direction of project improvement based on the report and the disclosure process, and the experts expressed their opinions on the reports from the persons in charge of the projects. Finally, Minister for Digital Transformation Kono expressed his opinions on the whole, and Senior Vice-Minister for Digital Affairs ISHIKAWA made a closing speech.

Date

Friday, August 30, 2024, from 11:00 to 12:00

Location

Held online

Attendees

Member

Chairman Satoh, Committee Member Iwasaki, Committee Member Uemura, Committee Member Kanbayashi, Committee Member Sasajima, Committee Member Kubo, Committee Member Horikawa

Proceedings

Secretary : Good morning, everyone. It's on time, so we'd like to start.

Before the start of the conference, there are currently impacts in various areas due to the Typhoon No.10. If an emergency evacuation order is issued in the area where you are, I would like you to move on to evacuation without hesitation. Thank you very much.

The 4th Policy Evaluation and Administrative Project Review Expert Council will be held.

Today's meeting is held using a web conference system.

In addition, I will open the opening to the media today, so I would appreciate if the expert members could turn on the camera as much as possible.

First of all, I would like to give an address from Minister for Digital Transformation Kono at the opening of the meeting. Thank you very much.

Minister for Digital Transformation Kono: Good morning. Thank you very much for taking the time to join us today. I would also like to thank you for your active discussions so far.

At Digital Agency, we have asked experts to discuss policy evaluation and administrative project review at the same meeting. Thank you for indicating the direction of project improvement for Digital Agency's efforts in the discussions at the meeting so far. Today, I would like to receive the summary report discussed at the three expert meetings, including the disclosure process, and at the same time, I would like to report on the direction of improvement based on the report from the person in charge of the three projects, gBizID, GSS, and Base Registry, which you pointed out individually. I would like to hear your frank comments on the direction of improvement.

Based on the content of today's meeting, we would like to expand this initiative to the entire Digital Agency and lead to further improvement of projects in Digital Agency while firmly rotating the PDCA cycle, so we would like to ask for your continued cooperation.

(Exit of Press Personnel)

Secretary : Now, I would like to explain the flow of today's meeting. First, the Chairman of the Advisory Council will explain the report compiled by the Advisory Council members.
Next, we will receive a report from each person in charge of the project on the measures for project improvement and the status of consideration. In response to this report, we would like to receive comments from the expert members, and finally, we would like to receive comments from Minister for Digital Transformation Kono.

After this, with regard to the report that the Chairman will report, as you stated, among the initiatives in Digital Agency, the three projects of gBizID, GSS, and Base Registry were selected and experts discussed the direction of project improvement. A provisional report was prepared in June. After that, on July 24, a disclosure process was held for the gBizID and Base Registry project, and the opinions from the expert members were further added to the report to make it the final report.

In addition, with regard to the reports from the persons in charge of each project, at the time when the provisional report was prepared, that is, from June onwards, we have been considering business improvement for Issue, which was pointed out in each project. In that sense, it is the direction of business improvement at this point, so I would like to ask for your recognition on this point.

Then, I would like the Chairman to explain the outline of the report. Mr. Sato, I would like to thank you for your cooperation.

1. Report of the discussion to date

Chairman : I would like to talk about each of the three projects that were subject to deliberation.

Common corporate certification platform (gBizID)

Chairman : This is to support the people who are subject to electronic administrative procedures, especially corporations. When authenticating, since they are corporations, there are representatives of corporations and their employees, and there are many people involved, and there is more than one person. In such a situation, it is a mechanism to confirm the identity of the person, or rather, to confirm the identity of the corporation, and after that, each administrative procedure is performed. As you know, gBizID has been promoted by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry since 2019, that is, before Digital Agency was established, and it was transferred to Digital Agency.

From the perspective of the so-called axis of evaluation, this project is progressing very smoothly, so in that sense, it is an easy target for us to evaluate. At present, the target is the number of corporations that have acquired this gBizID. This is very appropriate, but the number of registered corporations is also quite satisfactory, as it is considered to have a considerable number of corporations that use online procedures, excluding probably dormant corporations. I think that is very smooth.

However, rather than the number of registrations, we would like to ask whether G-Biz is actually used in administrative procedures. In particular, there are procedures at administrative counters and online procedures, and we would like to set a target for the number of cases in which gBizID is used in online procedures.

Another suggestion is that by adding direct effects such as how much time can be shortened by using this indicator, the projects in this gBizID will be easier for the people to understand.

Regarding the policy approach, first of all, it is required to enlighten the public about this system, but at the meeting, the frequency of electronic procedures by corporations is different. On the other hand, considering the cost of digitalization, I think it is better to spend money on rare procedures in gBizID, but I received an opinion that it would be better to consider the cost.

In addition, in terms of the budget and stakeholders, it is necessary for stakeholders to use ministries and agencies in the services of each gBizID, so I have shown that it is important to cooperate well with them.

Government Solution Services (GSS)

Chairman : In the past, there was a system called the Government Common Network. This is a network connecting ministries and agencies. On the other hand, GSS will unify not only the network between ministries and agencies but also the network within ministries and agencies, and support services operating on the network, such as so-called online conferences.

Actually, when I look at the status of progress, it is said that the target will be set for all ministries and agencies. The network between ministries and agencies has already been completed, but when it comes to the networks in ministries and agencies that use GSS, it is not always included, and there are some that do not use GSS. Regarding this, there is a problem of the renewal period of the networks within the ministries and agencies of each ministries and agencies, so it will not be replaced immediately. As there were many opinions at this meeting, depending on the ministries and agencies, the requirements for the network are different, and some regions require networks with extremely high confidentiality, so there is a problem of forcibly unifying such networks. On the contrary, if we try to forcibly unify such networks, ministries and agencies will have to set up a separate network, and there is a possibility of double investment. There were opinions that it would be better to consider this flexibly, and this is mentioned in the report.

With regard to the policy approach, I believe it would be fine if you could proceed with it, but I believe that it is necessary to look ahead to how the policy approach will be supported and how the network will be connected, including the fact that the goals have been set, for example, in some regions, the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries (MAFF) has quite a wide range of bases throughout ministries and agencies.

I work for the National Institute of Informatics, and this is organization, which supports the network between universities called SINET. From that point of view, I have a little doubt about whether redundancy is OK in the event of disasters, etc., but in my hearing, I heard from the original section in charge that it is OK in the event of disasters, etc., and I cannot go any further than that in the policy evaluation and administrative project review, so I would like to believe it. However, I hope that the sustainability of services, including in the event of disasters, etc., and the availability will be further improved.

In terms of the budget and system, as a result of this GSS, the network that had been maintained in ministries and agencies will become one in the country. The benefits of this are that the scale will increase, so economies of scale can be achieved, but at the same time, there is a problem that the number of business operators in private sector who can build and maintain such a large system will decrease. Therefore, there is a slight conflict between utilizing the economies of scale and competition between business operators, and several members expressed the opinion that it would be better to consider this matter in the future.

As for our stakeholders, they are expected to use ministries and agencies, so we hope that they will continue to tell us the convenience of GSS and that more ministries and agencies will use it, if it meets the requirements of ministries and agencies, of course.

Base Registry Business

Chairman : The Base Registry is a measure that has been proposed since the establishment of Digital Agency to provide the latest and accurate information across addresses, locations, and corporate names.

However, I would like to ask if things are going well. From the perspective of target setting, the target has been slightly reduced compared to the initial target. For example, the base registry for business establishments, which is not a corporation but a business establishment, has been canceled. In this regard, I would like to ask whether the policy target was appropriate in the first place. I would like to ask you to continue to scrutinize this area.

At present, we are creating a database in the three fields of corporations, real estate, and addresses, and we will use such information in general for various activities of the people, so I would like you to set a goal of improving the convenience of such information.

With regard to the policy approach, there are cases in which it is necessary to obtain the cooperation of other Digital Agency and local government rather than having ministries and agencies directly organize corporations, real estate, and addresses, so it is necessary to maintain the latest and accurate information in a way that does not burden each local government or ministries and agencies.

With regard to the Base Registry, a law related to the Plan for the Development and Improvement of the Basic Public Information Database has already been passed during the 213th Ordinary Session of the Diet. Once the law has been passed, I would like you to elaborate and advance the development plan.

In response to what you pointed out at this meeting, I think we have to think about it for a while. Public databases are also created in other regions than Digital Agency. For example, the Statistics Bureau in Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications has created a database related to the national census, which is used to see the situation of the country for statistical purposes. I think the base registry is mainly used to make individual inquiries, so the purpose is different, but there is a certain overlap in the database. If we do not organize and coordinate these databases well, many similar databases will be created from the perspective of the people. Therefore, I think it is necessary to advance coordination among ministries and agencies more than ever.

In terms of the budget and system, a database such as the Base Registry costs money to maintain, so I believe that it is necessary to ensure that there is no duplication as I mentioned earlier and that it is not a burden on local government and ministries and agencies.

In terms of stakeholders, from the perspective of building a base registry, the National Printing Bureau, which has know-how in the use of characters, will be able to work together with us, so we hope that we will be able to work together with a wider range of specialized organizations.

Secretary : Thank you for your explanation. Next, the person in charge of the project will report on the status of measures and discussions on the direction of project improvement based on the report.

2. Direction of improvement in each business

Common corporate certification platform (gBizID)

Person in charge of the project, : In terms of the content of the summary, I have received five points this time. First of all, regarding the point that the utilization should be advanced after understanding the ratio of administrative procedures using gBizID and the actual effects, we in Digital Agency are planning to make efforts to understand the progress of online administrative procedures for business operators through surveys, and we would like to conduct a survey on how much gBizID is used.

In addition, by conducting questionnaires and interviews with business cooperation service personnel, we would like to evaluate whether the use of gBizID has actually increased convenience. We would also like to make a trial calculation of how much cost reduction is actually achieved compared to mail delivery.

In response to your comment that the usage record and status of gBizID should be disclosed, we have built a dashboard to grasp the current status of use, so we would like to organize the information that can be disclosed and disclose the dashboard by the end of the fiscal year.

You pointed out that we should increase the number of public service that can be connected and review the improvement of services based on the status of their use. While investigating the status of the digitization of administrative procedures, we would like to ask you while we are talking to our partners while understanding where gBizID is not used yet.

We have received feedback from business operators who are users and people in charge of use who are already connected, and we are working on functional modification, so we would like to continue this.

You pointed out that the necessary system should be developed and maintained. I believe there is a balance with the resources of the entire Digital Agency. At present, there are people in charge of gBizID, product managers, and a system of administrative officers to support them. As the use of the system further expands in the future, we would like to maintain the necessary system after thorough discussion within the Agency.

You pointed out that we should promote public awareness and public relations activities in cooperation with various public service. You also pointed out that we should publicize the benefits. We have a track record of promoting gBizID in cooperation with the people in charge of each ministry and agency, for example, by having the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare (MHLW) publicize Okinawa for social security procedures and by having related departments of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI) publicize Okinawa for subsidies. We will continue this initiative, and this fiscal year, we have established such a public relations project in the budget, so we would like to further promote it.

Government Solution Services (GSS)

Person in charge of the project, : First of all, regarding the improvement proposal on the support of GSS to each ministry and agency in transition that you pointed out. Regarding the transition of each ministry and agency to GSS, we are considering it based on the timing of the next network renewal. Digital Agency is actively holding study meetings, sharing information with each ministry and agency, and holding consultations, and is starting to support smooth transition. In the future, we will work on further support, such as holding opportunities for information sharing with related ministries and agencies.

In addition, in order to ensure reliable operation even in the event of a large-scale disaster, the number of ministries and agencies using the system is expanding, and the role of the system as an important infrastructure is being required. Therefore, we are promoting the redundancy of the network and the location of distributed data centers. In order to make it possible to respond more smoothly in the event of a disaster, we will gradually develop a system for employees and for business operators to build and operate the system.

In response to your comment that we should make steady efforts to standardize operations in order to increase the effect of cost reduction, we will promote effective deployment by integrating network equipment and lines to be installed. We are also reducing costs by optimizing the selection of lines. We will continue to make efforts to standardize the operations of each ministry and agency through study meetings, consultations, and smooth information sharing with each ministry and agency.

You pointed out that we need to ensure the maintenance and operation system of the GSS. However, as the number of ministries and agencies and users increases, we need to strengthen the operation system. First of all, we will carefully consider how to tackle this based on our performance. Since it is quite difficult for us to do it alone, it is important to actually integrate them or strengthen the system with the cooperation of each ministries and agencies we use them. We will continue to ensure stable operation by appropriately utilizing outsourcing to external operators.

Base Registry Business

Person in charge of the project, : With regard to the status of consideration, I have commented on whether there is room for future expansion, and that we will proceed while properly evaluating the costs and effects of database development.

This time, we have prepared an attachment for the evaluation of the outcome indicators and the effects of policies, and it shows the results of detailed examination in the form of separating the people, who are the people who take procedures on the business operator side, and administrative officials, so please take a look at it as appropriate.

At the same time, in terms of costs, in addition to the cost of the system, the feasibility of acquiring the database is not limited to money. For example, even if there is data in principle, if it is actually collected, it will be a heavy burden on the relevant ministries and agencies, the local government, or the applicants, and the feasibility of building the database will be low. We would like to consider the cost effectiveness while taking into account such factors.

Regarding the second point, we are considering the duplication of databases. In the attached reference materials, some pages related to the last page are also attached, so please refer to them as appropriate. Basically, we will collect registration information, build a system so that it can be viewed or distributed to each ministry or local government, and distribute it after cleansing the necessary data. For example, regarding the business establishment population database, which was mentioned in the discussion, of course, we would like to talk to the other party about using this base registry mechanism for those that can be obtained from duplicate registration information. As for the database itself, I believe that the other party's database collects indicators that show activity status such as sales, so we believe that the database itself exists as a database that collects necessary items.

In addition, in operating the database, we would like to efficiently operate it with the help of the National Printing Bureau, which has knowledge and know-how on database operation through official gazettes's projects.

In addition, there is a need for the local local government to collect and confirm information related to addresses in particular. In that regard, we are still proceeding with the work in Digital Agency as much as possible, for example, by requesting only the final confirmation. We will conduct hearings and surveys of local government from time to time, and we will proceed with consideration so that the work will be conducted in line with business practices so that nothing inconsistent with the actual situation will occur.

Secretary : Thank you very much. Then, I would like to have the comments from the expert members on the explanation by the person in charge of the project in less than two minutes per person.

Mr. : I believe that the project Issue of each policy was very clear, the direction was clearly indicated, and there was a meaningful and thought-provoking exchange of views. For example, regarding the relationship between the utilization ratio and the cost benefit, it is also a Issue that is the linchpin of e-government. In addition, based on the points of redundancy in unifying the network between ministries and agencies, availability in case of emergency, cooperation with local government, redundancy of existing statistical data, and elimination of burden associated with procedures, we also received reports on business improvement, such as the setting of KPIs, which are the common Issue for each policy project, and the perspective of service improvement from the perspective of the people and users. I think it will be difficult in the future, but I would like you to make efforts to improve the project by PDCA based on a roadmap that sets a deadline and by when it should be promoted.

Finally, in addition to the projects selected this time, I would like to expect that we will continue to thoroughly implement public relations activities, improve governance, and utilize AI and other technologies in the entire new generation of digital government strategies, so that we can contribute to policy formulation and administrative and fiscal reform that will gain the understanding of the people and users by promoting cooperation with other ministries and agencies while making use of our past achievements and lessons learned.

Mr. : Many of Digital Agency's projects create a common foundation for society, and I think that if we can create a social implementation successfully, we can make a huge social change. Therefore, I thought that there were several important things, so I would like to mention three.

First, there are projects that will cost more if they do not match the needs of society and fail in social implementation, so it is important that there is a possibility that we will suffer the social loss of that. It is necessary to always be sensitive to social needs so as not to be complacent, and there is also the risk of double investment with other projects. Regarding the project review, which is to carefully look at the projects one by one, regarding this double investment, since information related to other projects is required, a broader perspective is required, so I thought there might be some Issue.

Second, all Digital Agency projects are easy to make use of. The purpose of gBizID, GSS, and the base registry should not be to introduce them, but to have them used. However, I think that this administrative project review will be a good improvement because the setting of such outcome indicators will include those that are aware of convenience and the degree of use. I think that it is important to change appropriate outcome indicators depending on the situation at the time for many projects, and I think that these three projects have entered such a phase, so especially for gBizID, I think that the degree of use and the time reduction effect will be shifted rather than the number of accounts.

Third, what I thought was a good initiative this time was the utilization of the dashboard of gBizID. I asked for its disclosure, and I think it was good that it was disclosed. Regarding the dashboard, I think it is a very important initiative in the sense that the results are shared with the people. Regardless of this project, I think the same is true for other projects, so I would like to take this opportunity to expand it to other projects.

Mr. : Regarding this type of systematization, of course, I think it is necessary to properly provide feedback to those who are currently using it and those who are currently expected to use it.

However, in addition to that, in the case of infrastructure, there are always people who may use it in the future even if they are not using it now. In terms of how to incorporate the convenience of such people, I would like you to take a step back calmly and promote various things with the awareness that you are not targeting only people who can use it now.

Mr. : I would like to make just two comments. First of all, when it comes to expanding convenience in this way, there will be many voices that want to maintain the current situation, so I would like to ask you to proceed without losing to such forces. I am an undergraduate teacher of data science, and from the perspective of a person who is engaged in such a education, if we do not proceed with such a digitalization, we will definitely lose to competition with other countries, so I would like to ask you to proceed without losing to such forces. In particular, SNS and other media have recently become a form in which it is easy to collect critical opinions, and I think that the staff who are making efforts may lose their vigor, so I would like to ask you to proceed without losing to such forces.

Second, as the scale increases, it will be easier for people to use the holes in the security. We are actually conducting research in cooperation with various companies, but there have been a number of incidents in the security that have not been disclosed. Because of this, I think it will be difficult to create a digital society that is supported by all the people on a large scale unless we make use of data and educate business operators, as well as education on the aspect of the security. Therefore, I would like to ask you to promote education on these matters.

Mr. : One point is that linkage is always necessary when creating data. In fact, it is said that my father became disabled on the way when he became ill, and a disability card will be issued. But it is a hospital that certifies a disabled person, and a disability card will not be certified unless I go to the city public office. So, I went to the city public office and received it from the doctor at the hospital, and I think this is strange. Data finally exerts its power when it is linked, so I thought why don't I go from the hospital to the city public office? No matter how good the data is, I don't think it is meaningful if it is clustered one by one. I think it is necessary to always look at who the users are, whether it is a local local government, between cities and public office, between ministries and agencies, or whether teachers use it. But in the end, it must become convenient for the people in their daily lives, so I think it is necessary to always look at whether it is achieved properly in linkage.

With the leadership of Minister for Digital Transformation Kono, the penetration rate of My Number Card has increased to 80%, so I think that gBizID as specified this time, for example, the invoice system and My Number, are not consistent. Therefore, the ideal form is quite far away, so I think it is necessary to deepen the linkage. This is one point.

Another point is that EBPM is easy to measure in the digital world, so I would like to boldly check that this is not because I have done it so far or because I have collected it, but because I have collected it but did not need it. I think that data will survive only if such a system is created.

Mr. : Looking back on the history of system development in the past, each ministry and agency first built a system individually, and then tried to integrate it. At that time, the system development by different vendors eventually became a barrier, and wasteful investment in creating a new system with little use of existing system data and other assets has been repeated. I believe that Digital Agency will actively build systems in various fields and for various purposes this time, but I believe that there will be integration and cooperation after that. Therefore, I expect that Digital Agency will be able to do design by itself with a view to future integration, so I would like to ask for your cooperation in that regard.

Another point is that in the construction of the base registry, it is very significant that we are considering reducing the burden on the people and administrative staff as a medium - to long-term outcome indicator. However, in order to achieve that, the key is to solve various Issue. I think it is highly evaluated that Issue such as the shaking of address notation has already been clearly seen. However, this cannot be solved only by creating a system, and it is important to organize and standardize the administrative side. This is not limited to the base registry, but is the most important point in administrative coordination before design and national system development, which is an important point in any national system. I evaluate this as a good example that I was able to reaffirm in a sense.

Finally, based on these points, since Digital Agency is a group of experts, I would like to create a review sheet that reflects the knowledge of the experts, and I hope that it will create best practices in the entire system EBPM by effectively evaluating on development. I would like to see a reference for the system that other ministries and agencies are development.

Mr. (Member of the Advisory Panel): First of all, although it may sound a little harsh to the Secretariat and others, from the perspective of obtaining the budget by utilizing the Policy Evaluation and Administrative Project Review, it will be more effective to implement it a little earlier in the next fiscal year because it has to be done before the estimated budget request for the next fiscal year, or more specifically, before the so-called prioritization in planning.

Second, I am also a tech person, so from the perspective of a tech person, there are quite a few things related to digital that cannot be understood unless they are tried. In EBPM, there are many things that are not allowed to be done because there is no evidence, so first of all, try it and stop what does not work. In addition, it is important to try multiple things in an AB testing like private sector, so I think it would be good to do it flexibly.

Third, even if the goals and content of digital-related measures are correct, there are many cases where the effects do not appear if the technology that is the means is mistaken. However, whether it is policy evaluation or administrative project review, there are places where the technology used by Digital Agency cannot be evaluated. I was chairing the meeting thinking that it would be surely better to create a mechanism for a third party to evaluate the technology neutrally.

Secretary : Thank you very much. Now, based on the report and the discussions so far, I would like to ask Minister for Digital Transformation Kono's comments. Thank you very much.

Minister for Digital Transformation Kono: The experts gave us a lot of good advice on Digital Agency's efforts. Thank you very much. I believe that there is still a Issue to Digital Agency's efforts, and regarding the system of Kasumigaseki as a whole, you just mentioned that it will be created first and then integrated, but there are still things that need to be integrated. For example, if you raise an issue this year, 2024, it will be quite a long time in the future, such as responding to the system in 2026 or 2028. Amid such a variety of Issue, you just mentioned EBPM and what you will do about technology, but regarding the three projects this time, I can see that each person in charge is taking your discussions seriously and working hard to improve them. Not only these three projects, but when we are working in Digital Agency, there are some places where we are thinking about various improvements premised on that direction, but I think it is very meaningful to receive guidance from a distance and to stop and think.

I believe that this Policy Evaluation and Administrative Project Review will not be conducted because it is supposed to be conducted, but there will be some that need to change direction while listening to your opinions in various situations, some that need to be worked on more, and some that need to stop and think about it. While Digital Agency is advancing various things, how to effectively incorporate your knowledge, how to utilize it other than just doing it as part of a cycle, may be a bit of a top-down perspective, but I believe that there are places where we can incorporate your opinions more into Digital Agency's efforts. I would like to move forward while considering various things as Digital Agency.

We look forward to your continued guidance in the future.

Secretary : Thank you very much. Then, at the end of the meeting, I would like to ask Senior Vice-Minister for Digital Affairs ISHIKAWA to make a closing speech.

Senior Vice-Minister : Thank you, distinguished professors, for attending this meeting despite the difficulties of this typhoon and for your various opinions.

The day after tomorrow, September 1, will be the fourth year since the establishment of Digital Agency. So far, we have been advancing various projects in a short period of time, and we have been conducting various projects with the breakthrough power of Minister for Digital Transformation Kono through Agile. However, I feel that it is completely reasonable that the points you pointed out today are not to be an excessive burden on the parties concerned, or to be a duplicate system.

Based on the report you gave us today, we would like to work on improving various businesses in Digital Agency.

We would appreciate if you could continue to provide guidance and encouragement to the projects of Digital Agency.

That concludes this meeting. Thank you very much.

Secretary : Thank you very much. Thank you very much to all the distinguished members of the Committee and to all the people in charge of each project for your cooperation in the smooth running of the proceedings today.

This concludes the fourth meeting of the Policy Evaluation and Administrative Project Review Expert Council.

End