5th Mobility Working Group

Overview

Date: November 22, 2024 (Fri) from 16:15 to 18:00
Location: online
Agenda:
1. Opening
2. Proceedings
  1. Holding of Mobility Working Group
  2. Proposed Issues for Mobility Roadmap 2025
  3. How to proceed with the Mobility Working Group, etc.
3. Exchange of opinions
4. Adjournment

Material

Minutes

Director, Asayama: However, the fifth meeting of the "Mobility Working Group" will be held now. Thank you for taking the time to attend the Working Group today. I am Asayama from the Secretariat, and I will be the moderator today. Nice to meet you.
I would like to receive an address from Chief Mori on the opening of the working group.

Chief Mori: My name is Chief, and I am a member of the Mobility Working Group. Thank you very much for your time today, despite your busy schedule. Prior to the fifth meeting, I would like to explain the purpose of today's meeting and introduce myself.

Last year, at this Mobility Working Group, we drew up a roadmap. The members of the Mobility Working Group gave us a lot of cooperation, and we spent a lot of time discussing the drawing up of the roadmap. And we made it after four working sessions, so I would like to thank you for taking a lot of time like that.

This roadmap will be revised every fiscal year. In order to actually implement various mobility services such as autonomous driving in society, we will firmly connect the thoughts and ideas of both the demand side and the supply side to improve the efficiency of mobility.

This time, with the aim of compiling this Roadmap 2025, I would like to consider what we should do with a common infrastructure across supply and demand, while fleshing out the 2024 that we have been working on so far, and reporting on and evaluating the progress.

Today, Mr. Digital Agency will explain the issues of Roadmap 2025 and how to proceed toward its formulation.

In addition to the common infrastructure that I introduced earlier, I would like to hear your opinions on what should be worked out in the social implementation. I would like to hear your opinions on what issues will be discussed and what themes will be discussed this time. I would like to hear your frank opinions. I would like to thank you and introduce today's issues. Thank you very much.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. Today's meeting will be held online. I would like to ask all the members to turn on the camera during the meeting and unmute the microphone when they speak. I would also like to ask you to mute the microphone when other people are speaking. I would also like to ask the audience to turn off both the camera and the microphone.

First of all, I would like to explain the management of the meeting. Please be aware that we would like to summarize your opinions in the form of minutes, except for the explanation of the materials.

I would like to check the materials. As per the agenda I sent you in advance, the materials are the agenda, Materials 1 and 2, reference materials, materials to be explained by Mr. Wakana, and the list of attendees. If there is anything missing, please contact the Teams chat function or the secretariat by email.

In order to implement new mobility such as autonomous driving in society, we believe it is essential to discuss the common infrastructure that should be jointly used with the transportation trading company function across supply and demand. In advancing such discussions, it is necessary to fully take into account the current state of regional transportation, so we consulted with Chief in advance and decided to have Mr. Wakana, who is engaged in the practical work of securing regional transportation in various places, join the members. Later, Mr. Wakana will explain the initiatives he has been involved in and the challenges of regional transportation that he has felt through the practical work of the initiatives.

As for the introduction of the participants today, there is a time constraint, so I will change it by distributing the list of participants in your hand.

Now, let's move on to the agenda. This time, I would like to discuss the issues of the next roadmap. As I mentioned earlier, first of all, I would like Mr. Wakana to explain "The actual situation of regional transportation - What is expected of digital -". Mr. Wakana, thank you in advance, including greetings.

Wakana Member: I will be participating from this time. My name is Wakana, and I live in Iwate now. Nice to meet you. Since this is my first time participating, I think I don't know what to do, but thank you for your cooperation. Now, please share the materials.

Usually in Iwate, especially in the hilly and mountainous areas, I work and support local transportation together with local residents. You said you wanted to talk about the site, so I would like to provide a topic while talking about the site. Thank you in advance.

In my daily life, I am particularly involved in the development of transportation in hilly and mountainous areas and rural areas, and I would like to introduce the relationship between the scale of a city and the living area to support the discussion. The concept of the living area is very important for residents as well as for the development of transportation. I am asking them to think about the area in terms of which part they should do by themselves, which part should be done by businesses, and which part should be done by the government.
I usually use this material, but the one on the far left is a so-called local city, with a scale of 100,000 or 300,000 people. In Iwate, it's about the size of Morioka City, which has the largest population of 300,000 people. And in the local city and town areas, there are areas with a population of 10,000 or 20000 people. The one on the far right is like a town and village area or an elementary school district, I think. I am often involved in the town and village area on the far right, the area, the population of which is about 5000 to 3000 people. When it comes to people living, there are almost no shops in this town and village area. When it comes to the city center, a hospital, in Iwate, you have to go to Morioka, which is such an area.

It is written that the quality and quantity of transportation resources differ depending on the scale of the city, but now it is often influenced by how many people, vehicles, drivers, and business operators there are, rather than how needs are. It is written at the bottom that transportation resources, but in local cities, there are still bus operators and taxi operators, but in this city and town area, there are no more bus operators. There are taxi operators who are working hard to reach their generation, but in towns and villages, there are no more operators, and transportation is organized according to the situation. However, transportation needs to be connected, and the network requires the cooperation of various entities, and digital is getting into this recently, so there is a great need for development.

I would like to introduce a few examples. It says city and town areas, but on the previous page, in the middle, in towns and villages with a population of 10,000 or 20000, what kind of problems occur in transportation, and what kind of transportation is there to deal with them, I would like to explain using a few examples. This is Marumori-machi in Miyagi, which is the most southern part of Miyagi with a population of 12000. There are no more bus operators, and there were two taxi operators the year before last, but one of them has gone out of business. The remaining one company has no choice but to have one company take charge of all school buses, community buses, route buses, taxis, and shared taxis, and we are working on it now with difficulty. In fact, since this year, we have been working on the renewal of demand taxis as a review of transportation. Shared taxis have been in Marumori since 2007, but the number of users has decreased greatly. We are following all the towns with six cars, but it is not efficient. There may be too many cars, and there are two receptionists, so from this year, we have switched the shared taxis themselves to AI Demand and introduced an AI demand system.

After doing a lot of research, I thought it would be better to use AI, so I put it in, but once I put it in, there are a lot of difficulties. If you install the AI system, it accesses a server somewhere not in Tokyo or Tohoku, and accepts reservations and dispatches cars. Until now, there were 2 operators, and I dealt with the details according to them. Actually, there was quite an analog part in it, but the analog part didn't come in at all, which caused a trouble. For example, I wanted to go shopping with my neighbor's aunt, but my house was a little far away, so I couldn't get on the same car. What should I do? Also, there is a red line and a green line in the bar chart below, but there was a time zone where we couldn't match. Users were frustrated by the fact that they could no longer use the service at the time they had been able to, and the reception operators were also exhausted. In addition, when AI is introduced, the working hours of the crew members become unexpectedly long, and the crew members are also exhausted, and the crew members are in a state where they face difficulty in maintaining motivation. For this reason, the president of a taxi company suggested that it might be a good idea to include some gig work, such as a person who can work only in the morning, although it is difficult to work in various ways and to concentrate in the morning and have free time in the afternoon in transportation. However, it takes time to change the management style, so the direction of the solution is still not clear. Crew members may not be able to adjust to things like wanting to work like this or wanting to work only in the morning and evening. Labor management cannot be done entirely digitally, but relies on analog and person-to-person relationships. We are faced with a situation where there is no one to take charge of this. The government, which is the operator, is also involved, and the crew, the company manager, the reception operator, and I are also involved in repeated discussions. As the transportation business itself is weakening, it is inevitable that everyone will remain in control of the operation, and I feel that the utilization of AI, or rather digital, is really difficult.

Another example is the Yamagita district in Murakami City, Niigata. The population is 5000 and there is a bus company, but a local taxi has gone out of business. The number of bus users has been decreasing significantly, and in reviewing the entire public transportation system, including buses, in order to increase door-to-door accessibility, an NPO that has been working on the operation of local after-school day-care centers and mutual aid activities has started a private paid transportation system called public ride-sharing. Here, the system is not installed at all, and it is completely analog, and the one-person receptionist does all of the pickup and reception. All the drivers are individuals and they cooperate in side work such as agriculture, but they get paid properly. The problem that occurred here and we are dealing with it now is that the number of users has increased. Because there was no taxi until now, and this can be used very cheaply, the number of users has increased. Operators manage to use the reception record book and white boards to respond in analog, but in addition to the adjustment of usage needs, detailed adjustment of drivers is necessary, and the work of matching while adjusting both is very difficult. Every day, the person in charge of administration and I come in and discuss how to deal with such a situation. Here, too, there are limits to efficient dispatching, due to the overlapping rush hours, the large area, and the fact that a single pickup trip can take more than 30 minutes each way. Drivers are not full-time employees, so their working hours are different. For example, they prefer to work only in the morning, or today is good but tomorrow is not. We don't have any plans to install the system at the moment, but I'm in the middle of digging up drivers, making it too convenient, or there will be no bus users, and we are all groping around to adjust the entire network.

Last but not least, I don't often go into the bigger parts of regional cities, so I've given two examples from the countryside. In fact, when it comes to the coordination and harmonization of transport networks, the key words in the countryside are integration and multi-functionality. One of the points is to put various things on one car, and to put various needs on one car such as school, hospital and high school students. In the city, buses are divided into buses, taxis are divided into taxis, and schools are divided into schools. But for people in the countryside, the point of efficiency improvement is to put various needs into one company or one car. Therefore, a new form is needed very much. In the case I mentioned earlier, we had to talk about what to do with the administration, the business operator, the receptionist, and I. In terms of management, who will be in charge of making decisions, we are working together. This problem is the most difficult. In urban areas, it is written that it is a digital system, but in an example I know, a vehicle for day services that all social welfare corporations have is put on the system, and regardless of which company's vehicle it is, everyone uses it, like a welfare MaaS, I think. The big ones and the small ones are different, but what I expect from digital is big, so I hope I can learn at a study group like this. I was a little vague, but that's all from me.

Director, Asayama: , thank you very much for your explanation. I think it was a very useful explanation for future discussions. If you have any questions, please let me know.

Now, I apologize for my question, but you explained that while relatively large-scale companies are introducing digital systems, it is difficult to introduce them when the scale becomes smaller. Please tell us what challenges were encountered when introducing digital systems in relatively small-scale Marumori-machi, if you have any experiences in the field.

Wakana Member: Yes, thank you very much. Marumori and Yamagita are the same, but for example, if there is one driver in Marumori, he drives the school bus in the morning and sends the children by eight o'clock. After that, he gets on Demand. Ideally, if there is no use for Demand, he has no choice but to work in such a way as taking a taxi. Also, each of the needs is small, so it will be such a combination. In that case, it is the government that places orders for schools, so cooperation with schools is necessary. Such integration of meanings and multi-functionality are involved in various places, so it is very difficult.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. Are there any other members? If there are any questions about the actual transportation situation in the area, please let us know. Member Saito, thank you very much.

Saito: Have you registered in advance the needs of the various people you mentioned earlier, such as how they want to work and where they want to go? Are there any demands at that time? I didn't know what kind of scheduling they were doing.

Wakana Member: In terms of user needs, in Marumori, you can use it by calling when you want to use it, which is called full demand, so if you want to go to a supermarket, it's a supermarket, if you want to go to a hospital, it's a hospital, and so on. At that time, the need arises.

Saito: If so, it is inevitable that the needs will be biased, and as I mentioned earlier, is it difficult for various people to make plans to respond?

I felt that it would be easier to level things by registering on the previous day or so, making it possible to plan when and for what, and deciding in advance what procedures to follow. Aren't you doing that now?

Wakana Member: , but now we are responding in real time. Reservations for Yamagita are made until the previous day, but if you make a dispatch plan after accepting all of them, you will have to call again. In any case, it will be inefficient to make a dispatch plan after summarizing your needs once and return it, so when a call comes in, you have to return it saying how many minutes it will take to pick you up.

In the past, Marumori had set a timetable for leveling. To a certain extent, it was possible to level out and guide people by deciding that they would come to the waiting area at "nine o'clock in the morning in your village." However, as the number of users decreased, it was decided that they would be able to go at full capacity.

Saito: The other thing is that we often change rates when responding to demand or controlling demand. Are all rates the same now? Because of this, there is talk of a slight shift. For example, in the case of electric power products, we are talking about making rates higher so that they can be scattered to other areas because it would be a problem if they were concentrated in a certain time zone. Hasn't such an idea been tried?

Wakana Member: We don't do such dynamic pricing. However, to differentiate between a shared taxi and a bus, we make a price difference in terms of people who can go by bus as a guide as much as possible. It may be possible to increase the crowded time a little.

Saito: I'm not sure if it's effective because I don't know exactly what kind of action or when I should shift it, or if it's not good to shift it, but I thought there might be such a story, so I asked a question. That's all.

Wakana Member: In response to the question just now, I talked about it this week at the second Yamagita. As expected, you cannot shift the time for going to the hospital, but you will be asked if you are going to the hospital or not when you check in because you will be asked to go shopping or go to the ATM, and we decided to make it known that you will be asked to shift the time for things other than going to the hospital.

Saito: Okay. Thank you very much. That's all.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. How about Takamoto Director?

Director Takamoto: I was listening to you a while ago, and I thought it was very interesting. In particular, we are mainly thinking about the idea of driver share as one way to eliminate this vacuum.

I would like to ask about one question in this regard. In your explanation this time, you mentioned school bus drivers and demand taxis. Other than that, for example, those who work as drivers in the area, I think there is a little more of a pie. For example, those who work at transportation companies. Those people also have something in common when it comes to drivers, so aren't there any plans to further expand the driver pie itself on the issue of sharing?

Wakana Member: Thank you very much. In towns and villages, the carriers are increasingly freight operators. In that sense, it is common for freight drivers to be passengers as well in places I am involved in. Rather, there are no longer any chartered cars, so freight is also being handled. In that sense, even freight is not enough. In the case I am involved in now, the matching of needs and the guidance of needs that I talked about earlier are natural, but I think that digging up and matching of people involved can somehow be done better by using the system. That area is more difficult the more you go to the countryside, and there is a kind of tug-of-war between the feeling of doing it for the benefit of the community and the feeling of doing it because you can get money. If you simply say that if you can get 1,500 yen per hour as an gig work, the system will probably be easy to match. However, if there are people who don't need it but are in trouble, the idea of doing it and the compatibility with the system will be really good. It will also be a horizontal development of the balance with regional development, so I dream of doing something about that.

Director Takamoto: Thank you very much. As you said, I understand that the form will change a lot in the part of motivation. When we actually build the system, the human resources needed to create the systematic form we envision will vary greatly depending on motivation. Regarding that point, we are just looking for information on what kind of form we can build, including mixed loading of freight and passengers. We would be very grateful if you could give us your opinions during the actual system building. Thank you very much.

Wakana Member: .

Director, Asayama: Next, I would like to explain the "Mobility Roadmap 2025 Issues (Draft) and How to Proceed Toward its Formulation." (Explained in Appendix 2)

Today, as I explained, I would like to hear your opinions on what points should be discussed in Roadmap 2025, and what themes should be focused on when discussing those points. Then, at the next working group meeting, based on the report from the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism on the current situation and issues of logistics and the progress of discussions by the Headquarters for the Elimination of the Transportation Vacuum, I would like to narrow down the points of discussion and themes to focus on.

Next, I would like to introduce the opinion of Mr. Kawabata who was absent.

First of all, your opinion on page 6 of the document.

In order to create a more comfortable working environment, we have received opinions that improving the efficiency of management work across the digitalisation of driver management and loan servicers should be part of the functions of transportation trading companies, and that the common infrastructure should be considered including driver management. In addition, in rural areas, it is difficult for transportation loan servicers to invest capital independently, so we have received opinions that we would like the public to consider to what extent the burden will be borne by the public, that the public will directly create a mechanism, and that we will provide a foundation where start-up companies and business operators can easily enter.

Next is your opinion on page 7 of the handout. In areas where communities are active, it is important how to create communities in order for start-up companies to gather and create synergies, and we have received opinions that such a concept should be expressed somewhere in the overall discussion points.

Finally, in order to stimulate demand for mobility, it is important to create a purpose for going out and create demand, so we have received opinions that such an item should be added.

That being said, I have heard that there are some members who have limited time constraints, so I would like to hear the opinions of those members who have plans. I will take time for you to speak again as much as time permits, so I would appreciate it if you could give me your opinions within 5 minutes first. When you speak, please let me know by the show of hands button on Teams or the chat function, and please release the microphone mute when you speak. I would like to hear the opinions of all the ministries and agencies, so I would appreciate it. Member Ishida, please.

Prof. Ishida: This has been a key word in discussions since Prof. Hidaka . I would like to make a few points.

First, the opening sentence of the seventh page says social implementation of autonomous driving, but it sounds like a discussion on how autonomous driving should be and how to go back to that point, but I think it is quite important, so I will talk only about that. I think there are strong short-sighted ideas such as autonomous driving equals unmanned driving, or driverless due to a shortage of drivers, but I think it is quite difficult to think in that way. First, it will take quite a long time to implement fully autonomous driving and unmanned driving L4 and L5 in society. The real mobility problem is just around the corner.

In addition, I think it is fortunate that we are introducing logistics this time, but Next Logistics Japan, which is centered on Hino Motors, with which we are currently working through SIP, has a sense that there is not much shortage of drivers. One is that compensation is high, and it contributes to social contribution, overcoming the logistics crisis, and solving carbon neutrality, and I was told that motivation is extremely high, so I do not feel that there is a shortage of drivers in the logistics industry, as people say. I think that the ratio of driver services for crew members will be lower and lower, but to that extent, as I have been saying since I was doing MaaS, how to think about such a thing, in that sense, I think that the way transport trading companies function will become very important.

What is of urgent concern is that the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport, and Tourism's Bureau of Logistics and Motor Vehicles, which is attending today, is working hard to achieve the goal of 25 years, 50 years, and 27 years, 100 years, but when we look at the current projects in detail, in fact, there are quite a few routes where the number of passenger cars per operation is less than 1. L2 and L4 cars are running, but there are not many people on board, so I think it will be a difficult situation. In a sense, it is the same as carrying out an extremely wide range of negative publicity for autonomous driving, so I think that if we do not properly think about what kind of service we will provide, simply running L4 will not be enough, so I would also like to say this.

With regard to the function of transport trading companies, I am involved in the Special Committee on Regional Living Areas that I am currently working on in the National Land Council, and the discussions there are very similar to the function of transport trading companies with regard to mobility, especially in disadvantaged areas. Let's think about living areas that are not bound by municipal boundaries, or in order to support life, no matter how far you go, you can't do it within a company, but you have to think about the provision of services in a complex way, so I think you will play a part in transport trading companies, and the main player is a regional management corporation. It is very similar to the function of transport trading companies, so I hope you will cooperate with us.

In addition, as I have been saying for a long time, in terms of understanding demand, since current demand is realized under various constraints and environments, I believe it is extremely important to define demand in order to contribute to Well-Being in the true sense. Therefore, I believe it will be a long-term discussion, and I would like to ask for your cooperation in this regard.

Also, with regard to the SIP that I have been working on for the utilization of data in the common infrastructure, I am not sure if Mr. Koshizuka is in Japan now, but I have asked Mr. Koshizuka to build and implement a fairly large-scale data space called the Japan Mobility Data Space, and I would like him to cooperate with me.

It's been a long time, but that's all.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much, Mr. Ishida. I think you said that the issues of what the level of autonomous driving should be and the issues of transportation companies and demand should be thoroughly examined, so the secretariat will narrow down the issues. Mr. Yamamoto, please.

Member (Alternate: Mr. Akio Yamamoto): Thank you, . I am attending this meeting on behalf of Mr. Keiji Yamamoto, Chairman of ITS Japan, but I have confirmed the content of this discussion with him in advance, and it is no problem for you to recognize the remarks I have just made as comments by Mr. Yamamoto.

There are two points. One is the function of a transport trading company that supports mobility services. As you mentioned on page 6, this is a very good idea, and I agree with it. As expected, there are quite a few local governments across the country that need a common infrastructure. ITS Japan has seen various examples of this, but similar things are done separately with various mechanisms and systems. I think it is very important to establish this as a common infrastructure, how many markets each local government has, how much common infrastructure they have, and at what level they operate, as this will contribute to how low fixed costs can be.

Toyota, Softbank, and other vehicle companies are promoting MONET, so-called transportation services, and trading company functions, but I would like to say one thing here. There is still a limited demand for transportation services in areas where there is a traffic vacuum. So, as for how to specifically examine the business style of the transportation trading company function, although the trading company function is self-help on page 6, I think it is necessary to reach a consensus on the recognition that it is a public service and mutual aid and public aid throughout Japan. At present, subsidies are distributed separately to each transportation company, and in the same way, it may be that the time has come to recognize the trading company functions that will support future transportation services as mutual aid and public aid, even if they are few.

Second, although I think this will be discussed a little later, I think it is necessary for the trading company function to take charge of the transportation measures described on page 6, apart from whether or not the trading company function operates the cooperative control of autonomous driving on page 7, how much road-vehicle cooperation is needed in Japan, and the sharing of computer resources that require it.

In 2027, as Mr. Ishida mentioned earlier, there is a goal to deploy automated driving at 100 locations. Local government shuttle services nationwide are not a mix of L2 and L4, but if we do not aim for L4, there will be a shortage of drivers, and at least we know that the cost will not be lower than the current cost. Road-vehicle coordination is necessary for L4, how many routes and how many computers are available in each local government, and if we include trading company functions in this, it will contribute to the government's goal and the realization of solutions to local issues. That's all. It has become long.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. You spoke from the perspective of self-help, mutual assistance, and public assistance for the functions of transportation trading companies. As I indicated on page 7 of the secretariat materials, I am also thinking about the ideal way of mutual assistance for transportation trading companies, so I would like to advance such discussions in the theme setting. Thank you very much. Deputy Director-General Kubota, please.

Kubota Deputy Director-General (Deputy Director-General, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, Bureau of Logistics and Motor Vehicles): I would like to briefly explain what you just asked about, including the situation of logistics other than autonomous driving. As you said, there are various problems with logistics, and in addition to autonomous driving, a bill was submitted in ordinary Diet this year. In order to transport goods efficiently and with the number of drivers decreasing in the future, mixed loading, transporting goods from various business operators together, and other measures, autonomous driving is positioned as one solution. Using Shintona and other vehicles, we used to demonstrate self-driving in the form of platooning, in which the second and third vehicles run automatically, but even if the second and third vehicles just follow forward, if they are prepared for unexpected situations, they cannot run in platoons without Level 4 capabilities, and it is difficult to save manpower without Level 4 trucks. Therefore, in addition to measures to save manpower other than autonomous driving, such as the improvement of loading rate I mentioned earlier, we will use self-driving verification test, expressways, and other roads in the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, or in cooperation with the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. That is all.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport, and Tourism will explain the logistics situation next time. Mr. Ishida, is there anything I can do for you regarding the explanation just now?

Prof. Ishida: This has been a key word in discussions since Prof. Hidaka It's all right. I look forward to the next discussion. Thank you very much.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. Then I would like to ask Mr. Suda.

Mr. Suda: This time, there are several examples of themes covered in the roadmap, and I have heard a lot about them in advance, but I would like to comment on three points related to autonomous driving.

One is the importance of Level 4 in autonomous driving. I am very aware of this, and from the perspective of global competition, it is necessary to continue to do Level 4, but on the other hand, it is becoming clear that Level 4 is not possible in all areas. In addition, not from the perspective of labor shortages, but from the perspective of traffic safety, I think there are quite a few stories of making Level 2 more widespread for buses, trucks, and passenger cars. Of course, Level 4 will be done, but I think it would be good to have discussions on how to use autonomous driving not only in Level 4.

With regard to the image of service cars, as we have already discussed logistics, it would be relatively easier to use business vehicles, snow removal vehicles, garbage collection vehicles, and car-sharing services such as unmanned transport and auto valley, where unmanned transport is not necessarily carried out. Therefore, I think it would be good to have discussions from a new perspective.

Finally, cooperative control, road-vehicle cooperation, I am paying great attention to it, and I think it should be considered. Where road-vehicle cooperation can be used, and how to divide autonomy and cooperation, these frameworks do not necessarily agree with each other, I think. Regarding the framework, including who will take responsibility and who will bear the cost, I think that complete consensus has not necessarily been obtained in Japan, and I am wondering what it will be like to consider that. These are the three points.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. Regarding the level of automated driving, Mr. Ishida has given us his opinion, so I would like the secretariat to consider what kind of theme to set. In addition, regarding logistics, based on the report from the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, I would like to consider whether to make it a priority theme.

Finally, regarding road-vehicle coordination, I would like to ask Deputy Director-General Hashimoto of the Road Bureau for his comments.

Deputy Director-General Hashimoto (Deputy Director-General, Minister's Secretariat, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism [in charge of the Road Bureau]): Thank you very much. Regarding the road-vehicle coordination system, it is necessary to proceed both on ordinary roads and expressways. On ordinary roads, for example, at intersections, sensors are used to detect and provide information to self-driving cars, which will contribute to traffic safety, and we are working on the realization of this system. As for expressways, you mentioned from Deputy Director-General, the Bureau of Motor Vehicles, earlier, but we will conduct a verification test in Shintona this fiscal year, so I think we will proceed with verification of what specific issues there are regarding merging, etc. Of course, we will share the results of the verification test to increase safety or increase certainty, and we will consider where there are needs and matching. That's all.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. What do you think, Mr. Suda?

Mr. Suda: I am well aware that various things are being tried and considered, so I would like you to go into the burden of costs, responsibilities, and so on, and proceed in a way that can really draw an image when it is implemented in society. Thank you.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. Do you have any other comments? Director Takamoto Thank you.

Director Takamoto: Thank you very much. As a person in charge of autonomous driving, I had a lot of thoughts while listening to you, and I was deeply moved by what you said. As for the goal of autonomous driving at 50 locations and 100 locations, I understood that the overspec part, which is a common point in your talks this year, that the world where everyone is running hard at Level 4, is not always the right answer, not 100 points.

Of course, we have been pushing forward so far, and I think that L4 will be the first step. However, as we move forward, including the issues and issues, this year, we will focus on advanced technologies in areas where advanced technologies are being implemented, and on the other hand, where existing technologies should be implemented, existing technologies should be implemented, and we will deliver what is needed to the areas where it is needed, with a certain degree of strength and weakness. For such autonomous driving, we would like to move forward firmly along the roadmap from next fiscal year. Thank you very much.

Director, Asayama: Thank you. Next, Mr. Hidaka, please.

Hidaka: I am now in Shikoku, Shodoshima Island, and I put it in the text because the communication may be bad. If you can't hear me, please read it for me.

This time, not only the Digital Agency Transportation Company, but also Mr. Wakana's talk and others give us a more specific image of what we were doing with the term MaaS, and I hope that we and I can firmly contribute to that.

I have listed four points. Even now, I am asking specifically about bus operators in Shikoku and the local community. Until the day before yesterday, I was listening to transportation operators in Hokkaido, and as I expected, the working environment is extremely severe. However, when it comes to raising fares, there will be opposition from the area. I think this issue is being discussed elsewhere, but as Mr. Wakana stated in his presentation, in particular, there is a lower limit for fares, a lower limit for taxis, and an upper limit for railways. There was a time when demand increased and supply had to be increased, but now that demand has decreased and we have to do it in the midst of low demand, the idea of securing business feasibility and protecting users must be rearranged. I think there is a choice between doing it as an exception or doing it as it is now, in the form of a plan ticket. However, I think that various things in Japan will continue to change, so I think it would be good if we could rearrange how money will be in particular.

My second point. I think the local community will work hard to maintain it, but if the working environment is severe, drivers will change jobs more and more, and they can't make it, so taxi operators are in a lot of trouble now. I think it is necessary to make the businesses of local mobility and transportation trading companies sustainable, while securing the working environment and wages that are equivalent to other occupations to some extent, including the location and ease of work. I heard that the secretariat is also involved this time, so I hope we can conduct a thorough simulation of resources.

The third point is that we hope to somehow be able to operate in areas where there are few people, and as Mr. Ishida said, I think that competition and innovation in various services such as digital can occur in that context. Therefore, regarding the realization of open APIs, I would like you to make sure that once you install a ride-hailing application or a demand business operator, if you are locked in there, you do not know how to switch when you try to switch, and you are told that you need to pay for the initial setup fee, so you do not have to continue to use an old one that does not match well. In particular, if it will be introduced many times in the elimination of the transportation blank area, I think that you have experience with this point of view in various places such as Digital Agency and other fintechs, so I would like you to consider open APIs so that it will be a good form in transportation.

The fourth and final point is that when a transportation company joins the community, there may be opposition in the community. If there is a case where data cannot be shared or ride-hailing will not be coordinated, it will end up being a picture but not a reality, so I think it would be good if we could create a mechanism to specifically grant authority.

On the other hand, in some regions, transportation companies have been in competition with each other for a long time, and I think there are areas where it is difficult to join hands. When that happens, I think there are cases where a person in charge of a transportation company and a specific transportation company try to exclude others arbitrarily, so I think it would be good if we could discuss how to make rules somewhere. That's all from me. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. Regarding the second to fourth opinions I received, I think they are about the contents of the transportation company, so I would like to refer to them when I consider the contents from now on. Regarding the first opinion, I think it is related to the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, so I would like the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism to comment.

Manager TSUCHIDA (Manager of Mobility Service Promotion Division, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): fares are determined by each business law, so I believe that decisions will be made in each mode. For example, in the case of public ride-sharing, we have set a certain upper and lower limit for dynamic pricing, and if it is within that range, we can decide fares according to supply and demand.

Director, Asayama: Next, Mr. Saito, please.

Saito: , I agree with most of what you are saying. One, from the perspective of digital Architecture, I would like to talk about self-help, public assistance, and mutual assistance, which are the functions of a transportation trading company. I think it would be good if we decided on a Architecture and created it as a common infrastructure, although it is not a so-called zero marginal cost society by having some parts in common across local governments. On the contrary, I think it would be good if we could talk about lowering digital operation costs.

One more thing, Mr. Wakana mentioned earlier that AI matching is not suitable for people's current work, so-called analog work, so it is difficult to use it. However, current digital services, for example, are automated by changing algorithms and learning with AI. I think it is good to do that as a competitive area for servicers. You mentioned open API earlier, but as expected, a certain platform is publicly shared across municipalities, and if we make it so that applications on it can operate in a form that ensures interoperability, I think it will become a common service for autonomous driving because hilly and mountainous areas with a small population should have the same problems. Then, as a servicer, it will be a model that can collect in a form that generates a number. I think it is good to think about how to create a world of public assistance, mutual assistance, and self-help on what kind of platform, in what kind of Architecture, of transportation trading company functions that can be used all over the country to earn volume.

Another topic is how to deal with data regarding the matching of supply and demand. My Number has also been affected in Digital Agency, so I would like you to think about the discussion of trusts and how to hold data together in the transportation company function. Then, when various servicers appear, how to deal with each area, how to deal with it as a whole, and how to have servicers deal with it can be sorted out. I think it would be good if the discussion of trusts and how to manage data in Architecture can be discussed in the transportation company function with a specific image.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. We received various opinions on how to handle the data. I think this is an important point, so I would like to deepen the discussion in the future. In your point, Mr. Wakana's name was mentioned, so Mr. Wakana, please tell us your opinion.

Wakana Member: Thank you very much. I have great expectations for this transportation trading company and autonomous driving. However, one of the things I expect from this transportation trading company may be a little off, but I think the most important thing when advancing this at the site is to make the working environment as good and rewarding as in other industries.

And what I am very confused about in terms of management now is that we have to work together while the image of the way of working is completely different in the municipal administration, the bus operator, the taxi operator, and the RMO who is in charge of regional management. I would like to create a common foundation, but if everyone's image of the way of working and the way of providing services is different, I don't think it can be used well. As long as the name of a trading company is new, I feel that it will be difficult to take root unless we include management proposals by all means. I want the Architecture to be able to handle everything that involves transportation, including distribution and passengers. For that, if the image of the way of working is different, it can't be used, so I thought it would be good to make a proposal that takes that into consideration. I have high expectations for it, so thank you in advance.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. You mentioned that it is difficult to establish a common foundation, but I would like to consider how far we can go. Do you have any other opinions? Member Muramatsu, please.

Mr. Muramatsu: I apologize for overlapping with Mr. Saito and Mr. Wakana, but in what you just said, I think it is important to draw a Architecture not only for the digital part but also for the business model. I understand that in the short term, it is more important to proceed with small players, as Mr. Wakana said, and if various people are involved, there will inevitably be coordination costs. For example, it is important to take an approach in which two companies try to do it alone, and the two companies try to actually experience success, and the two companies become three companies and four companies, and expand small things.

The other point is, on the other hand, if we proceed from the bottom up of small start, there is a limit to involvement, so in parallel with proceeding from the bottom up, as described in the original document, after drawing a big vision, we will involve various stakeholders, not only local governments and transportation mobility business operators, but also SIer, community-based supermarkets, convenience stores, etc. If we draw a vision to expand business, I think we can proceed with this initiative while taking advantage of two way interactions between small start and big vision. In the field of robots, which I am actually in charge of, if we do big things from the beginning, it will cost us both initial costs and running costs, so the hurdle to get started will be high. However, if we accumulate use cases using robots that can be done with existing infrastructure, we can expand the use of robots through small successful experiences, and I understand that this is important. That's all from me.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. I think you are of the opinion that it is necessary to prioritize and consider at some point, so I would like to consider where we will mainly discuss in the future. Is there anything else? Mr. Ishida, please.

Prof. Ishida: This has been a key word in discussions since Prof. Hidaka . Last week, I had an opportunity to discuss digital infrastructure with Europeans and Americans. They frequently used the term "digital infrastructure." What is digital infrastructure? I think this is exactly what we are discussing. I think it is extremely important who will own the digital infrastructure, who will operate it, and who will share and provide prototypes. I also think it is important how assistance will be provided at the start. However, as has been clear so far, I think the story will differ depending on the size of the market and population. For example, there is a big difference between a town with a population of 5000 and a town with a population of 500,000, so it will be difficult to sort things out, but I think we need to do it properly. Thank you in advance.

Director, Asayama: Thank you. Mr. Suzuki, please.

SUZUKI Member: Since this is a story about the world of drones, there may be some points that do not match our story. Drones are being commercialized in various industries and are used in various ways. From the perspective of services, in order to standardize qualities for business operators, JIS for Drone Service Qualities was issued in August this year as a specialized version of JISQ9000 and ISO9000 for drone services. This was created mainly by the Robot Test Field in Fukushima. Various business operators can proceed with their businesses based on this. By standardizing a series of procedures such as what should be prepared as necessary as a business operator, documents, equipment, Human Resource, and precautions when operating, it can be used by many people. It is necessary to consider how it can be used in the world of mobility, but I think it will be easier to develop businesses if standardization is done.

In addition, making the infrastructure available for use with the support of the national government is extremely beneficial for business operators, as it means that they have everything they can use when starting new businesses. Regarding drones, in the Comprehensive National Development Plan for Digital Lifelines, there is an initiative to develop a standard drone route as a national government, create a model, and use it together. An initiative to develop an operation system for delivery using power lines and drone delivery using rivers and use it together has begun. This is to develop hardware and software infrastructure so that it can be used by everyone, and I think there is a similarity in mobility.

In addition to the movement of people, delivery by drones is beginning to be put into practical use as there are elderly shopping refugees in depopulated areas. I would like you to consider a multimodal delivery system that does not rely only on mobility on the road, but also includes mobility using the air. It's been a long time, but that's all.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. Mr. Hatano, who has not spoken yet, Mr. Tanaka, I would like to ask for your opinion.

Member HATANO: The Automobile Manufacturers Association has no particular comment on today's issue, especially regarding the transportation trading company function, as it is a business-oriented organization.

From my personal point of view, this transportation trading company function is not limited to autonomous driving, but it is a very organic and effective means to combine various mobility as data on the provider side and match it to various demands, so I would like to elaborate this theme together with you. In particular, when it comes to matching transportation needs, it is expected that the realization of the transportation trading company function will be limited due to vertical division and jurisdiction division on the supplier side. Therefore, I think that by eliminating these restrictions, it will lead to the improvement of business efficiency not only in local cities but also in urban areas as a whole, so I hope that you will continue the discussion with such points in mind. That's all.

Director, Asayama: Thank you, Mr. Tanaka. How do you like it?

Okamoto (Alternate: Mr. Tanaka): On behalf of Okamoto , I would like to introduce two opinions that I have shared with Okamoto in advance.

First, with regard to power transmission lines, I would like to ask you to make use of your power assets in the digital society. For example, we are asking you to place a sensor for roadside-to-vehicle communication at a height of about eight meters from a utility pole during roadside-to-vehicle communication. We are asking you to consider standardization and installation of equipment in the Comprehensive National Development Plan for Digital Lifeline. We are discussing internally that it would be good if we could work well with the Comprehensive National Development Plan for Digital Lifeline on issues that will come up in the future, such as what to do with the responsibility demarcation point if the sensor is used for mutual assistance, and what to do if the sensor comes off or there is a data communication error.

Another new topic is hilly and mountainous areas. Many people think that hilly and mountainous areas have a lot of renewable energy and are areas rich in energy. However, if data centers are set up near renewable energy power sources in hilly and mountainous areas in the future, there may be areas where electricity demand will increase even if there are no people at first sight. In such areas where electricity supply and demand are tight, I think we need to make sure that even if we provide administrative services such as autonomous driving, which can be done without people, people will not be unable to receive sufficient services. In addition to economic efficiency, contribution to the community, and carbon neutrality, from the perspective of energy demand response, we would like to contribute to a digital society by making good use of energy data to promote behavioral change. Thank you for your comments.

Director, Asayama: , please.

Chief Mori: In the discussion of transportation companies earlier, the elements of the supply and demand sides are as written, but it is easy to imagine that the routes differ depending on the area and the person, such as going out from home, going to school, a hospital, the company, and coming back to another destination. We access various places such as childcare, education, medical care, and health, but we need to have a solid discussion of the nodal points. Only when one migration chain is established does it become migration. It is not a matter of concentrating on one point at the hub, but I think that a trip chain will be formed by combining various means, so I thought that the discussion of the nodal points is also a big issue.

In addition, although it is a story that has already appeared, services that extend across municipalities will also be created. The more we talk about public assistance and mutual assistance, the more debate arises about what form of burden should be considered when the area covered by the tax benefits extends across municipalities. Therefore, I think that the way of vertical and horizontal cooperation will become important. I felt that it was one of the troubling aspects in advancing the discussion from now on. That's all. Thank you.

Director, Asayama: Digital, so finally, I would like to ask from Director-General, Digital Agency.

Director-General MURAKAMI: Thank you for your active discussion today. For the next discussion, I would like to organize myself again from three perspectives and receive various opinions from you in the future.

The first is about autonomous driving. As it is an open forum, I will avoid mentioning the names of individual companies, but it seems that within two or three years in urban areas, there will be a demonstration of taxis that make full use of autonomous vehicles and similar businesses, and in some cases, commercialization. I am aware that the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism is advancing the rules on responsibility and social responsibility that were arranged in last year's roadmap, but I think that it is necessary to realize measures that are consistent with the movement of business operators in the unit of this one year and two years. I think that we need to brace ourselves and follow up, and realize it.

The second one is about a transportation company. When businesses based on self-driving vehicles become apparent, I think it will become clear that places with low population density will not be able to be commercialized. It is possible that it will not be commercialized unless there is a considerable density of customers, but I would rather like to see autonomous driving technology used in such areas. However, at the very least, if we do not thoroughly discuss the function of transportation companies as a function, we may end up with the conclusion that in regions where the density of demand and the density of customers are low, various transportation businesses using autonomous driving have technical feasibility but no business feasibility. In that sense as well, it is necessary to realize various things in parallel during these three years. At this stage, there is no substance as a business of a traffic trading company, and we are taking it as a concept. In the future, I would like to discuss whether the function of a transport trading company should be carried out by the local government or by private sector, including the business model. In addition, I think that transportation companies will not function, regardless of whether they are inside or outside the local government, if they do not move across the vertical divisions within the local government, such as education, social welfare, and transportation policies, at the time of connecting the demand and supply of transportation in the first place. In that sense, I am prepared to say that the discussion of the transportation companies will be half about the governance of the local administration of the local government. Regarding the first point of automatic driving, we summarized many ideas of measures in last year's roadmap. For the time being, transportation companies are also thinking of providing generous support to regions that are advancing initiatives like regional trading companies in a supply-and-demand manner through issue Gold, a regional revitalization company. I think this is one way out, but at the same time, through the creation of a logic tree, I would like to introduce a tool that will enable the departments in charge of supply and demand in local governments to cooperate, sort out the logical relationship of policies, and establish a foundation for measuring impact.

The third is about digital public goods. Digital public goods is an argument that the United Nations is raising. In fact, as for software and systems in particular, if the number of users increases, they can be simply copied, and their pure exclusivity cannot be proven, so they may not be pure public goods in public economics. However, for example, when analog ride sharing, which was highly distributed by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport, and Tourism, became a topic of conversation, if one local government directly asked a vendor for a vehicle reservation management system, it would cost 30 million yen. Although it is too expensive and impossible, if 10 local governments could arrange to use it at the same time, it would cost 3 million yen per local government, which could be realized. However, in reality, no one can make such arrangements, so even if there is a vendor who thinks that if there are goods and if it is a project of 30 million yen, the target municipality may be one or ten, it will be a market that does not move. It may be that road-to-vehicle coordination infrastructure should also be discussed as a kind of digital public good. We need something like a support line for how to bring the technology in the cooperative area to the market. We believe that we must not only match supply and demand as a function, but also find a rational method of procuring digital public goods. Among the issue funds currently under discussion, those that are regarded as digital public goods and are premised on joint procurement have started to be discussed whether it is possible to raise the subsidy ratio. It is assumed that there is much overlap between the debate on who owns digital public goods and how to operate them and the debate on the functions of transportation trading companies.

To give you a rough review, I would like to realize the contents of last year's discussion for the advancing autonomous driving project, and I think that we should deepen the concept of the transportation trading company function for areas with low population density and low demand density where there is a risk of being left behind. I would like to discuss the technologies that should be picked up as digital public goods and how to procure and spread them as a new issue for this fiscal year. I will organize the next agenda while looking back on the other points pointed out in today's discussion, so I hope you will continue to give us active opinions. That's all from me.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. Now that it is the scheduled time, I would like to ask Chief Mori to summarize the working group as a whole at the closing of this working group.

Chief Mori: Thank you very much for the long and active discussion today. Mr. Wakana, who joined us from this fiscal year, talked about specific initiatives for maintaining regional transportation, and I think it was very helpful. Thank you very much. Since this working group kicked off, I recognize that we received various opinions and opinions on points that should be discussed further regarding the issues of Roadmap 2025 and how to proceed toward its formulation. Including that, I would like to further organize the discussion as a working-level official.

In particular, I am aware that there were many opinions that the function of a transportation trading company to spread new mobility services is important. I would appreciate it if each ministry and agency would consider what kind of measures, for example, should be advanced to lead to the implementation of new mobility services in society while cooperating in their respective roles toward the construction of this function.

At the next Working Group, current efforts to eliminate the transportation vacuum and issues related to logistics are common issues that will be discussed from now on, so I would like the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism to explain them at the next Working Group in order to have a common recognition. Based on the opinions received today, I would like the Secretariat to sort out the points of the roadmap and the themes that should be discussed intensively for the next Working Group.

This is an extremely wide-ranging issue, and I believe that there will be various service situations when implementing various levels of automated driving, so I would like you to advance the discussion including that. Also, regarding how to proceed, there was a roadmap discussion on whether to proceed by small start, after drawing a large Architecture, or both, so I would like you to deepen that as a future discussion.

In any case, I would like to thank all of you for your continued efforts and cooperation in order to put together the Mobility Roadmap 2025.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. If you have any additional comments, such as not being able to speak because of the short time, I would appreciate it if you could send them to the secretariat by the end of next week. The materials for the plenary session will be published on the Digital Agency website at a later date. In addition, the proceedings will be published on the Digital Agency website after the experts have checked the contents. The next working group will be held on December 23, as I have already informed you. This concludes today's discussion. Thank you very much.

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5th Mobility Working Group

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